EPTTerrans Have Highest Skill Ceiling - Page 10
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sYx66
Canada10 Posts
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Z3kk
4099 Posts
I realize your point is that right here and right now, Terran seems to have a huge range of possibility, while the other two races seem strangely limited and clear-cut, but I think that future patches--and especially the expansions (even the name itself implies a great deal of improvement)--will reveal the full scale of all the races. I read before that this is a tired/overused argument, and it does feel that way. I still feel like it's worth mentioning, though. >o<" Overall, I definitely agree with your point. Terran has that choice, while the other races (in most, if not virtually all cases) are significantly limited in options and general outlook. | ||
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shtdisturbance
Canada613 Posts
No one will ever reach the "skill cap" for any race. | ||
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
Overlords can spread creep anywhere on the map, drones can build spore/sunken colonies anywhere on the map. protoss can build cannons and warp units anywhere on the map. sup? Have you never seen zerg or protoss pull workers to defend a push, or to finish off an opponent? I know there is a zvp rush where the zerg 6 pools and brings all drones and can catch the protoss without a zealot. Your worker argument isn't good. Sure, scvs can repair mech units and buildings, but QUEENS CAN TRANSFUSE. Don't tell me you forgot that? Queens also have spells at their disposal, and I'd like to see you tell LiquidTyler that choosing what to chronoboost doesn't allow you to have more flexibility in your build. Choosing what to produce faster changes the flow of the game just as much as dropping a siege tank on a cliff does. protoss have warp prisms, not only can they drop, but they can warp in MORE units of their choice too? Why can't terran chrono boost their tanks, or choose to make 10 scvs at once? If anything, zerg has the best flexibility, they can make an entire army from scratch in 1 production cycle to deflect whatever their opponent is doing. Your post is completely wrong, and looks like a streamline of QQ terran OP. | ||
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rolled64
United States24 Posts
On November 30 2010 10:48 shtdisturbance wrote: I agree they have more options. More options doesn't mean higher skill cap. No one will ever reach the "skill cap" for any race. I agree that the skill cap isn't important, since it will never be reached. The important aspect is which race has more potential at the upper ranges of human skill, which is is definitely related to how many options they have, but is probably more influenced by the quality of those options (doesn't matter if you can choose to do 5 different strats if they all lose to 1 strat of the opponent). | ||
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xseverityx
52 Posts
Repair raises the skill cap? hah---maybe you could argue that if repairing scv's were AI target priorities, but as it stands sending auto-repair scv's with your army makes the skillcap lower, not higher because you get to make more mistakes and force a high-apm response from your opponent (targeting scv's) that and being a 100% range based army composition basically makes army micro a joke in comparison to zerg/toss. marine micro vs banelings yeah ok you've got that going for you, pretty sure banelings are supposed to be considered a counter unit though, the fact that through micro you nullify a counter unit is cool. its too bad marauders and marines stink on anything on the ground. saying that the terran meta game is still developing because of "all the little cool things you can do" is more a testament to the unbalance of "viable" units terran has vs zerg/toss units. AKA terran is OP LOOOOOOOOOO | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 30 2010 11:00 QQmonster wrote:Have you never seen zerg or protoss pull workers to defend a push, or to finish off an opponent? I know there is a zvp rush where the zerg 6 pools and brings all drones and can catch the protoss without a zealot. Your worker argument isn't good. This isn't a binary question -- "either other races are on par with Terrans or they have absolutely nothing." There are alternatives, one of them being that they have something, it just isn't enough. Probes and Drones have uses outside of gathering resources and constructing buildings... there just aren't enough. Now, there's no reason to make races entirely parallel in that if SCVs can Repair then we HAVE to have Probes doing X! It doesn't have to be Probes doing it. The problem is, nothing is doing it (to the same degree that Terrans have). Queens also have spells at their disposal, and I'd like to see you tell LiquidTyler that choosing what to chronoboost doesn't allow you to have more flexibility in your build. Choosing what to produce faster changes the flow of the game just as much as dropping a siege tank on a cliff does. Queens were discussed in an earlier post, and I did agree that Transfuse has actually turned out to be the most diverse spell in the gameplay it's allowed. However, Chronoboost doesn't work. It's not enough to give a player a spell (although that does help) -- there's a reason I didn't mention Scan or Calldown Supplies once in my post. These abilities have energy tension and they have some very varying tactical choices, but that's not enough. They are still shallow in and of themselves, because they only fulfill a single function. On page 3 I believe I talked about 'complex systems' and the way you need to create complex systems to allow units to form natural synergies. Natural synergies lead to unpredictable, deep gameplay. Blizzard didn't need to design the MULE with Thor repair in mind. It just happened because the ideas of "mech" and "repair" already existed in the race. We got a new mech, we got a new way to repair, and players creatively put the two together. Chronoboost has no synergies with anything, there is no creative way to use it outside of its standard use. I'm not saying that the Protoss has no options to influence the flow of the game and has no tactical decisions to make. He does. But I'm saying that his options are clear-cut, already available. The options for Terrans however will take time to discover, because they are unpredictable and were not all intended by Blizzard from the get-go, which makes them all the more interesting. Hence the race having a higher skill-cap, in the sense that they will keep coming up with newer and newer tricks, whereas I expect Protoss can only come up with variations of tricks we've already seen. Your post is completely wrong, and looks like a streamline of QQ terran OP. Yes, that's right. I play Terran and I'm asking for more options to be given to the other races because winning is far too easy, as my low Diamond 50% win record will attest. You're totally on to me. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 30 2010 11:46 LegendaryZ wrote: The OP uses so many words to say so little. It's impossible to see how the development of each race will proceed, especially since we haven't yet reached a final balance and there are still expansions with new content to come. I don't see much of a point sitting here and discussing the future of a race in its current condition when we know full well that it will not remain in its current condition. I also don't see how you can say definitively that the design of the Terran race allows for any more depth in gameplay or has more potential than any other race considering the fact that new concepts are being explored everyday. I think you make one critical assumption that I simply don't take for granted -- that, come expansion time, big changes are coming. In fact, helping to demonstrate that such changes NEED to take place is the entire purpose of this thread. I'm by no means suggesting that the other two races are hopeless. But I'm not at all convinced that Blizzard sees and intends to do something about this discrepancy. | ||
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WeeKeong
United States282 Posts
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
Pretty much true. | ||
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thisblindman
Philippines50 Posts
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
You talk about thor dropping with mules to repair, what if a protoss puts a collosus with thermal lance there, and warps in stalkers to shoot down vikings? There are plenty of ways protoss can synergize theyre utility belt too. Zerg and protoss can both teleport units accross the map, I don't see terrans doing this. you haven't even mentioned the mothership in your OP, or burrowed/dropped banelings. Zerg and protoss have tonnes of ways of synergizing their units and build orders... terran has some too.. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
Sitting in your base droning up while sending a few lings/lords around to scout is easy. Having to constantly harass your opponents to ensure you don't fall behind economically throughout the game + using weaker lategame units = hard. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 30 2010 13:43 QQmonster wrote: You mean like fazing and spacewalking collosus? What about bulldogging tanks by dropping zealots and then warping in more zealots on top of them? I don't, actually. All races have micro tricks, this isn't about that at all. Chronoboost synergizes with every single building the protoss has, which means by extension it also synergises with every unit, upgrade, and tactic the protoss can do. protoss builds can be looked at as a web of building ordering and chronoboost ordering. It's like the protoss is executing 2 builds at once. If CB is synergetic, then so are MULEs, since they get you money and money's great for everything!! ...see how useless a term it suddenly becomes when you use it so broadly? I'm talking about synergy that's a little more nuanced than that. You talk about thor dropping with mules to repair, what if a protoss puts a collosus with thermal lance there, and warps in stalkers to shoot down vikings? There are plenty of ways protoss can synergize theyre utility belt too. What you described is an excellent tactic. It's also absolutely vanilla, a minor variation on what we've all seen a hundred times. Warp-in was made for doing precisely what you described. MULEs weren't made for maintaining offensive positions. Zerg and protoss can both teleport units accross the map, I don't see terrans doing this. you haven't even mentioned the mothership in your OP, or burrowed/dropped banelings. Zerg and protoss have tonnes of ways of synergizing their units and build orders... terran has some too.. The Baneling is actually an AMAZING example of just what I'm talking about when I say natural synergy. You have a race that can burrow, you give them a unit that blows up, bam, a natural combination. Problem is, that's one legit, viable combination. Terrans have one of those for every single mech unit they got. And Protoss.. they've got nothing at all. | ||
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Madder
Australia427 Posts
On November 30 2010 14:13 vnlegend wrote: yep terran is the most difficult race. Sitting in your base droning up while sending a few lings/lords around to scout is easy. Having to constantly harass your opponents to ensure you don't fall behind economically throughout the game + using weaker lategame units = hard. That's the exact same thing for all other races... | ||
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Gofarman
Canada648 Posts
Unlike the expected Zerg and Protoss expansions Terran is complete. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 30 2010 14:13 vnlegend wrote: yep terran is the most difficult race. Sitting in your base droning up while sending a few lings/lords around to scout is easy. Having to constantly harass your opponents to ensure you don't fall behind economically throughout the game + using weaker lategame units = hard. Terrans may be the most difficult, or they may not. Regardless, that's outside of the purview of this thread. The verstility of a given race's mechanics reflects on neither the skill of players nor game balance. Not necessarily, at any rate. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
The Baneling is actually an AMAZING example of just what I'm talking about when I say natural synergy. You have a race that can burrow, you give them a unit that blows up, bam, a natural combination. Problem is, that's one legit, viable combination. Terrans have one of those for every single mech unit they got. And Protoss.. they've got nothing at all. Well certainly warp prism and warp gate have natural synergy. One warps units into a power field, and the other puts a power field anywhere. That's about as natural as you can get. Saying "but that's just what its supposed to do" isn't fair. MULEs can repair, so obviously dropping them to repair in a Thor Drop is something they're supposed to do. I do think Nydus Worms have tons of application in a ton of situations. There's 101 ways to use them, honestly, and not all of them are straightforward. Similarly, Infested Terran can actually be used to do all sorts of things that you wouldn't necessarily think of. Screwing up Tanks, granting sight, forming a wall... | ||
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