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Terrans Have Highest Skill Ceiling - Page 9

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ensis
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany340 Posts
November 29 2010 15:17 GMT
#161
thats what i say since beta, that sc2 will soon reach the point you very well described. and i actually dont like that, terran is imba, because its the terran part of the game babbling, but, lets try to think about this for a moment. blizzard wants money and their game on the undesputable throne of rts games. in thats its the interest of blizzard to create a perfect game. for a perfect game, i need 3 very versatile and perfectly balanced races. so lets rewrite the thesis, that "terran needs to be imbalanced in their part of the game" and substitute " terran needs to be made perfect in their part of the game". terran is almost perfect, its an incredible race to play. no matter what style suits you, you can play it. be it positioning and turtling that you like or you find your joy in constant harrass. terran suits you best. you might think they just want that terran is absolutely versatile and that everythings near perfection until they start working or rather perfectioning on the other two races. yes its somewhat of a conspiracytheory, but i really dont think blizzard is stupid enough to make a game for 10 years and everything they come up with is a screwed up platform and one good race.
things that may somewhat support that thought are, that protoss just lacks a unit for harrass. its not like protoss harrassment units are too weak, its more like, there is no such unit.

anyways, terran is perfect, dont touch them, instead work on the other two races, especially toss.
this is Day[9] Daily #266 where we learn to be a better substractor- - - - - - - - - - - - -even Chuck Norris watches Day[9] Daily - - - - - - - TL ban policy sucks ratsass
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
November 29 2010 15:33 GMT
#162
Holy crap. Learn to cut the fat out of your posts, kids. This was 50x the number of words it needed to be.
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
November 29 2010 15:59 GMT
#163
If Terran does more stuff, zerg also has to deal with more stuff, combined with the large amount of stuff they already have to do that Terran doesn't.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Cerebrate.Monthly
Profile Joined November 2010
United States21 Posts
November 29 2010 16:03 GMT
#164
This is actually something I noticed and commented about during the early Beta that though it didn't necessarily make Terran a OP race it was definitely the most polished of the races with it's varied gameplay options and myriad of choices.

The chorus of answers that Blizzard fans said to me was what you were thinking: The expansions will polish the other 2 races.

But if the game is balanced around the current state of the game, will Terran get a major overhaul of buffs to accomodate such changes to zerg/protoss mechanics. Or will they get even more options and choices on top of that as Brood War did.

It's not really a huge issue as of yet but definitely an interesting read.
"There is nothing cooler than being passionate about the things you love." -Day[9]
kthnx
Profile Joined August 2010
20 Posts
November 29 2010 16:03 GMT
#165
i actually feel terran is probably the least micro intensive simply because all of their units are fairl long ranged and there are very few spell casters. stimming is just one action for an entire battle whereas forcefields are 2 each and zerg have to micro zerglings for good surrounds and rely heavily on the queen for early defense.

i do agree that they probably have the most potential currently but that should change after the expansions
ensis
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany340 Posts
November 29 2010 16:20 GMT
#166
On November 30 2010 01:03 kthnx wrote:
i actually feel terran is probably the least micro intensive simply because all of their units are fairl long ranged and there are very few spell casters. stimming is just one action for an entire battle whereas forcefields are 2 each and zerg have to micro zerglings for good surrounds and rely heavily on the queen for early defense.

i do agree that they probably have the most potential currently but that should change after the expansions


since foxer did some decent marine micro, people think, terran requires micro. they completely ignore, that select a marine, move it to a different location is nothing more than select a stalker, blink it to the back or spreading your templars.
and some may even say, stim-micro is so very very hard to pull off. every and i really mean every protoss kites zealots and zerglings all the time, the only differnence? well, stalkers are slower than stimmed marauders and dont have concussive shells. yeah, dropping requires somewhat micro, but so does phoenix or muta harrass.
this is Day[9] Daily #266 where we learn to be a better substractor- - - - - - - - - - - - -even Chuck Norris watches Day[9] Daily - - - - - - - TL ban policy sucks ratsass
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7225 Posts
November 29 2010 16:21 GMT
#167
On November 30 2010 01:03 kthnx wrote:
i actually feel terran is probably the least micro intensive simply because all of their units are fairl long ranged and there are very few spell casters. stimming is just one action for an entire battle whereas forcefields are 2 each and zerg have to micro zerglings for good surrounds and rely heavily on the queen for early defense.

i do agree that they probably have the most potential currently but that should change after the expansions



Wrong.

Spell casters are easy to use in this game especially with smart cast.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Mentor
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany219 Posts
November 29 2010 16:50 GMT
#168
The opening post pretty much sums up my thoughts since beta, where Terran was considered the weakest race, but imo only because the other two races were more streamlined in their playstyle brcause of less dynamic relationships between units and buildings. Terran is the Lego race.
"Fame is like salty water, no last sip after the first, and before you drown you'll be dying of thirst." -Prezident-
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
November 29 2010 16:59 GMT
#169
Highest skill ceiling for me means that you can keep improving as a player in that race. In Protoss, it seems, you quickly run into a dead end because of the limited abilities of units or just them totally sucking balls and not being viable options.

As a Zerg, the diversity of play is greater. You can have banelings, you can burrow them. You can have other cool abilities, infested terrans, fungal growth etc. So it is better in that regard.

For Terran, you have tons of units with special abilities. Only a fraction of them are used to their fullest, and even after a year or two, terran will have some novel plays to offer. A better use of raven's or ghosts or this or that. In comparison, I don't know what Protoss are going to discover for coming months.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
November 29 2010 17:14 GMT
#170
On November 30 2010 01:03 kthnx wrote:
i actually feel terran is probably the least micro intensive simply because all of their units are fairl long ranged and there are very few spell casters. stimming is just one action for an entire battle whereas forcefields are 2 each and zerg have to micro zerglings for good surrounds and rely heavily on the queen for early defense.

i do agree that they probably have the most potential currently but that should change after the expansions


spells are easy as shit to use, it's the units that are hard to control

I'm outta these sc2 threads now, I just keep lol'ing too much
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
ArcNatural
Profile Joined September 2010
United States13 Posts
November 29 2010 17:32 GMT
#171
Terran:
I just feel like their needs to be repair caps for terran.

Something like 2-3 scvs to repair standard mech/buildings like barracks/thor/tank/bunker/etc.
Maybe something like 5-10 for a CC/Planetary so it can stop or delay army pushes for your mech army to get there. But I hate it when I see something like a protoss attack a PF with his main force the terran uses 24 scvs to repair and the protoss straight up loses, retreats and is now way behind.

I feel like the mechanic is NOT how it's supposed to be. Hold it off or delay it against small pushes or drops sure, but not entire forces. I just think repair the way it is at the moment is too much.

I think this would go a long way in fixing some of the little issues without heavily breaking anything.

I'm also 50/50 in removing repair from mules... But I'm not sure if that's entirely necessary as I do think call down mules for repair is a nice option for Terran to have.

I have to trust that when pros say Terran lategame loses to Zerg that it's true and may need some tweaks. But I honestly haven't seen enough of it go either way to be certain.

Zerg:
Seems ok at the moment. Nothing terribly wrong or bad with the race that I don't think could be fixed by the repair solution above. At least I don't see anything as radical as what I suggested above.

Protoss:

Protoss is hard to me. I feel like the race is almost OP but they aren't. Lately some of the new BOs have been interesting. A lot of faults for Protoss to me have to do with how straightforward they are at times. It's almost weird in that they have a lot of magic casting and unique skills but it's still fairly straightforward to use them.

I feel like Protoss is the hardest situation right now. I feel like the smallest tweak could easily make them broken for some reason.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 19:02:02
November 29 2010 18:51 GMT
#172
On November 29 2010 21:50 TrzystaDrzew wrote:
Show nested quote +

That's why MULEs, which were not created for the purpose of Repairing Thors (when have we seen/heard Blizzard talk about this?), can do so. Natural synergy of existing mechanics.


I refuse to agree with this. Do you really think they gave mule repair ability without idea of rep-drop function? I think you underestimate Blizz. What is more an argument "they did not tell about it" is kinda desperate move.

No offense.


Think backwards. Why would someone ever use a MULE to repair? They are (relatively) inefficient at this function, as that repair is actually costing you upwards of 270 minerals minimum. Already the number of situations where this might seem like a good idea has plummetted down. A player could conceivably use it to save a building in the red that no SCVs can get to. He could also use it to save a mechanical unit in an area no one can get to.

Why is there only one such mechanical unit and why is saving it so important? Well, cause you've got this Thor, see, and you put him up on a ledge in a way Blizzard didn't really expect. But there were no equivalents to the Thor in SC1, no mech unit that became OP just by virtue of rushing to it, and repair had far fewer opportunities to make or break the game. I don't for a moment believe that Blizzard anticipated the amount of trouble they'd have with anything revolving around just rushing to 1 Thor, so the "need" to repair it with MULEs would never even come up.

On November 29 2010 22:40 pigscanfly wrote:
1. new supply depot mechanic = warp prism = overlord creep spread = new creative ways to place buildings


But Protoss could already place buildings in weird ways, they just had to use a Pylon to do it. Nothing's really changed. It's not as though sneaking a Probe into somebody's main in mid/late-game is unheard of.

3. scans = spreading creep tumour vision/changelings= hallucinate= ways to gain scouting information


It's curious that you pick Scans, which I never mentioned in my OP. This gets a little less fair when we look at the MULE instead. Let's look for proxy functionalities. The Zerg have the Overlord's Creep Drop, right? And the Protoss have Warp Prism's pylon field. Problem is, the MULE isn't even a unit! The Protoss and Zerg waste an entire unit in their roster to make up for something that Terrans get outside of units, as a mechanic. And Protoss and Zerg have fewer units than Terran to start with! What does that say for how many options are available to these races?

4. planetary fortresses = moving spinecrawlers = protoss ability to warp in 5 cannons at a go without sacrificing more than one probe to build = easy way to defend expansions


Where's the "free Bunker" fit in there? Where's the Sensor "free maphack" tower's parallel? I'm not saying that Terrans have the ONLY things, I'm saying that they have by far the MOST things. In some things, such as options, quantity really can be a good unto itself.

The races ARE different and are meant to be different. It's like comparing clouds and teddy bears.


I don't really think that they are, though. I'd be curious to know what you think of the Edited portion at the end of my OP, specifically.

On November 30 2010 00:33 kcdc wrote:
Holy crap. Learn to cut the fat out of your posts, kids. This was 50x the number of words it needed to be.


You'd think so, right? Except I made it that long to ensure that people couldn't possibly confuse what I was talking about, and half of the readers still managed to do exactly that.

On November 30 2010 02:32 ArcNatural wrote:
Terran:
I just feel like their needs to be repair caps for terran.

Something like 2-3 scvs to repair standard mech/buildings like barracks/thor/tank/bunker/etc.
Maybe something like 5-10 for a CC/Planetary so it can stop or delay army pushes for your mech army to get there. But I hate it when I see something like a protoss attack a PF with his main force the terran uses 24 scvs to repair and the protoss straight up loses, retreats and is now way behind.

I feel like the mechanic is NOT how it's supposed to be. Hold it off or delay it against small pushes or drops sure, but not entire forces. I just think repair the way it is at the moment is too much.

I think this would go a long way in fixing some of the little issues without heavily breaking anything.

I'm also 50/50 in removing repair from mules... But I'm not sure if that's entirely necessary as I do think call down mules for repair is a nice option for Terran to have.

I have to trust that when pros say Terran lategame loses to Zerg that it's true and may need some tweaks. But I honestly haven't seen enough of it go either way to be certain.

Zerg:
Seems ok at the moment. Nothing terribly wrong or bad with the race that I don't think could be fixed by the repair solution above. At least I don't see anything as radical as what I suggested above.

Protoss:

Protoss is hard to me. I feel like the race is almost OP but they aren't. Lately some of the new BOs have been interesting. A lot of faults for Protoss to me have to do with how straightforward they are at times. It's almost weird in that they have a lot of magic casting and unique skills but it's still fairly straightforward to use them.

I feel like Protoss is the hardest situation right now. I feel like the smallest tweak could easily make them broken for some reason.


I feel like you're falling into the trap of assuming immediately that versatility equates with overpoweredness. While the power of a single PF can be annoying, these things are also easily countered if the opposing player simply keeps a clear head and doesn't get into /stubborn mode where he blindly rushes at it because "it has to fucking die this time." I notice that you don't suggest to cut anything out, whether it be unit repair or building repair or MULE repair, you suggest simply on nerfs. But why even do that? Why not instead give other races the options Terrans have?

Think of it this way. If Planetary Fortresses are used by TLO for area denial once he has way too much cash and is supply capped, what are Protoss players with too much cash expected to do? Cannons are inadequate because they're balanced around the early game (when they can be easily gotten) which makes them too easy to counter later on. A Terran can burn his money on a huge variety of structures (Turrets, Bunkers, Sensor Towers, PFs) but a Protoss only has one option. By working backwards we've discovered an area where the Protoss could have something, but don't.

"Why do Terrans get a Sensor Tower but the Protoss don't?" Everything comes back to this question. It's not as though the Protoss couldn't use it. In fact, with the current state of Muta vs. T/P, they need it far more than Terrans do. Yet Terrans get it, just cuz. ...why?
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
SilverPotato
Profile Joined July 2010
United States560 Posts
November 29 2010 18:56 GMT
#173
OP is right, I feel like Zerg is 90% figured out, and Protoss is close behind, Terran on the other hand is currently showing the tip of the iceberg. I can't wait to see T develop as a race both in and outside of the game.
"The ability to learn faster than your competitors may be the only sustainable competitive advantage." ~Arie de Geus
Debo
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States95 Posts
November 29 2010 18:57 GMT
#174
I think if maps changed, and Z/P players actually did builds that focused on surviving to the mid-late game you would be surprised on how the z/p maro capabilities clearly overpowers terrans.

But I find that it is coming down to the fact that Protoss, and Zerg are not trying to put themselves into situations that benefit their race, and instead try to put themselves in a position that is immensely more favorable to Terran.

Zerg are still going 14 hatch knowing it isn't safe vs terran.

Protoss are still rushing Colossus w/o building sufficient gateway units to stay properly safe.

I play terran, for the first 12-15 minutes of the game I have the advantage, but after that it switches dramatically.

But even with all these issues Z/P seem to have vs terran..... Zerg has won both GSL tournaments, so maybe the game isn't the issue, it's the players.
"Protoss can eat a @#$^!"
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
November 29 2010 19:01 GMT
#175
I think you just articulated what everyone already knew. There was a lot more put into T's design, they have more neat stuff, especially compared to Zerg which have almost none of it which is what makes them such a repetitive race.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
November 29 2010 19:04 GMT
#176
On November 30 2010 03:57 Debo wrote:But even with all these issues Z/P seem to have vs terran..... Zerg has won both GSL tournaments, so maybe the game isn't the issue, it's the players.


Keep in mind that I'm not really concerned with balance, but rather dynamic play. We can make the Zealot into a 500/500 unit (Shield/HP, not min/gas) and that would make Protoss win every single game every single time, but it wouldn't make the game dynamic, and it wouldn't help it to stay fresh and interesting months down the line.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
SilverPotato
Profile Joined July 2010
United States560 Posts
November 29 2010 19:12 GMT
#177
On November 30 2010 04:04 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 03:57 Debo wrote:But even with all these issues Z/P seem to have vs terran..... Zerg has won both GSL tournaments, so maybe the game isn't the issue, it's the players.


Keep in mind that I'm not really concerned with balance, but rather dynamic play. We can make the Zealot into a 500/500 unit (Shield/HP, not min/gas) and that would make Protoss win every single game every single time, but it wouldn't make the game dynamic, and it wouldn't help it to stay fresh and interesting months down the line.

You're so smart ^^

One of the first people to fully understand SC2 is meant to be a viewers sport, fun and entertaining for an audience unlike BW which has become more about who could execute the same bland build better

That's why these big Macro maps won't be fully endorsed by Blizz, they want SC2 to maintain a status of fast paced action.
"The ability to learn faster than your competitors may be the only sustainable competitive advantage." ~Arie de Geus
TheOGBlitzKrieg
Profile Joined June 2010
United States346 Posts
November 29 2010 19:17 GMT
#178
i think they should bring back the moving photon cannon for protoss
Treva
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States533 Posts
November 29 2010 19:55 GMT
#179
Very well written post. I agree with almost everything you said and the fact that it doesn't mean terran is harder or takes more skill, it just has more options like you said. It's very interesting to actually sit back and think of all the things you can use the CC/Mule for. Again, very nice.
Live it up.
Skysec
Profile Joined August 2010
United States164 Posts
November 30 2010 01:16 GMT
#180
I find it hard how anybody who's actually read the OP would bring up OP/UP into this discussion, this is a thread about being creative with each of the races and the options that each race has to them.

Whether a race is over powered or underpowered can easily be affected by a switch of the numbers. Making one unit deal one more damage or give it a range boost (roach) can go a long way towards changing balance but does very little to change creative/strategic/tactical play (range change does affect this though)
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