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They can be quite obnoxious, you have to have a plan to deal with it, and killing it will probably be somewhat costly. That's not necessarily a problem, though, as that statement can be applied to many things: banshees, mutas, reapers, DTs, void rays, thors, colossi, all-in pushes, etc.
As zerg, I haven't found myself to be thoroughly frustrated by one yet. If you really really want it dead and their army is out of position as you say, you can do it the super-strait-forward way and spend the 1500 resources to just bane the dumb thing (and potentially some SCVs and other stuff in the process). If it's an important mining location, it's worth that much and if it's not, there won't be a ton of SCVs there to repair it and/or maybe it's not worth killing.
It's a good bit tougher if they are in position to defend it since their army can fight from behind it while it tanks your army.
As for toss, I don't really know but I'd imagine forcefield is quite effective.
edit:
Oh yeah, a birdie told me that because terran is lacking in siege units, there will be an upgrade that allows them to fly (and shoot) in the first expansion
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The only thing that's really bugging me is that my stupid units completely and utterly ignore the gigantic massiv terran ball that shoots at them and instead go for the PF like a mosquito drawn by light. And i see no reason whatsoever why Blizzard still hasnt changed that.
The priority system is utter shit anyway. If i want to snipe something, i'll make shure to snipe it myself.
I won't be surprised if that PF ever opens it's windows and i see the trollface in there.
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On October 06 2010 09:14 MK4512 wrote:
I agree, I don't think it's really fair for the Terrans to get a choice between a huge econ boost (mules) or extra defense, whereas Z and P don't get any choice at all.
Queens are a macro boost and defense at the same time. Chrono Boost can be used on Army or Probes or Upgrades. This isn't even counting larva mechanics and Warp Gates.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it a million more: you can't compare these things in a vacuum. You either look at the whole picture, or nothing at all.
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On October 06 2010 06:36 danson wrote:
QQing noob, if I have to choose one.
this has been discussed to death, and you answered your own question. ITs there to compensate for lack of T mobility in late game. If you go all bio, you die.
ultras still > pfs, even after nerf.
collosi and broods outrage.
they arent invincible. also. just go kill his natrual if he makes a PF and 6 turrets at his third.
Unprotected colossi or broods at a super far third die to vikings. I can't afford to take 2-3 colossi plus a support units to a third, if I do my main army is weak as shit.
Also... his natural probably has his.. uh... army sitting outside of it.
"If you got all bio..." should never be an argument, learn to make more than 3 units.
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I think once the maps get bigger it really wont matter but yeah it sux on small maps
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lots of blings cant kill a few tanks very easily, therefore tanks are too powerful.
i shouldnt have to build mutas to kill them! i should just use whatever i have and it should work!
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On October 06 2010 07:10 chadissilent wrote:
If you want a quick snipe, hit it with 20+ banelings. 19 banelings are required to take it down, but some will always be killed as they move in. 24+ banelings and you can take out most, if not all, of the SCVs as well.
That is the equivalent of 15-20 Marauders worth of resources -__-
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On October 06 2010 07:01 Fizbin wrote:
ultras, brood lords, banelings, immortals colossi! or hit natural or main with a drop. "a" move is fail fail fail
hey toadstool if u lost 26 roachs to a PF without tanks or marauders backing it up thats pretty fail... lol target fire the scv's
26 roachs in itself is huge fail anyways. get some unit composition
I did. He went mass thor and hellion, I went mass roaches and zerglings. I smashed his army in the attack. All the zerglings died in the attack, I had 25 roaches left. It could not take down a PF being repaired by scvs.
Targetting the SCV's is difficult as well.
And who said I lost the 26 roaches? I lost half of them before i realised i wasn't gonna take down the PF and retreated.
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Ultras, broodlords, collossi and even immortals all rolfstomp PF. mix in just 1 high tempar or some banelings and ALL of the repairing scvs die in 2 seconds.
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On October 06 2010 10:54 divertiti wrote:
Ultras, broodlords, collossi and even immortals all rolfstomp PF. mix in just 1 high tempar or some banelings and ALL of the repairing scvs die in 2 seconds.
Whats defending the base from the terran army when all your T3 units are working on one fortress?
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On October 06 2010 10:16 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 07:01 Fizbin wrote:
ultras, brood lords, banelings, immortals colossi! or hit natural or main with a drop. "a" move is fail fail fail
hey toadstool if u lost 26 roachs to a PF without tanks or marauders backing it up thats pretty fail... lol target fire the scv's
26 roachs in itself is huge fail anyways. get some unit composition I did. He went mass thor and hellion, I went mass roaches and zerglings. I smashed his army in the attack. All the zerglings died in the attack, I had 25 roaches left. It could not take down a PF being repaired by scvs. Targetting the SCV's is difficult as well. And who said I lost the 26 roaches? I lost half of them before i realised i wasn't gonna take down the PF and retreated.
If you know you're not skilled enough to target the scvs first, you shouldn't be engaging in the first place. You can't blame the game for you making bad decisions.
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On October 06 2010 10:56 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 10:54 divertiti wrote:
Ultras, broodlords, collossi and even immortals all rolfstomp PF. mix in just 1 high tempar or some banelings and ALL of the repairing scvs die in 2 seconds. Whats defending the base from the terran army when all your T3 units are working on one fortress?
Terran's not Zerg, Terrans expand TOWARDS their enemies because of their immobility. If you're taking his third, then your army should be standing in between his bases and yours typically. You'll have your T1 and T2 units. Even if he gets by, by the time he unsieged all his tanks, moved his slow ass thors and tanks across the map to your base, you would've been able kill off the PF and flank his army by then. And if he goes for a mobile bio army, baneling and storm, he's dead.
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As far as killing a PF with banelings goes- this is how I manage to do it-
When yo morph in your blings, leave in 1/2 regular speedlings. Speedlings are still faster than blings with centrifugal hooks, so when you amove you're hotkey group the faster slings absorb the first PF shot.
Think of it like in BW where you run 1 ling into a wall of tanks, have all of them overkill, then run the rest of you're army in- banelings will be able to close the distance sooner. Also, if they don't have any missile turrets, then move an OL right above the PF (it can't shoot air), then have it spew creep for a while- this creep will give you a significant speed advantage.
Just be clever people 
Also note that you should try and get a "surround" with those banelings as much as possible. All's this means that if you are able to position near the SCV's then you will deal splash damage to BOTH the repairing workers and the PF. In terms of cost effectiveness- do a bling suicide once, then get ahead economically. I've seen gamers where people deny expansions multiple times with sacrificial blings- this is cool and all, but doing it just once should soften up their economy a bunch anyways.
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PF is fine, PF+SCV's + retarded unit priority = broken mechanic.
Also, missile turrets raping the shit out of anything that flies for 125 minerals is also pretty ridiculous.
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On October 06 2010 08:50 Sylvr wrote:
When I think of nullifying a PF as a Zerg, the idea that comes to mind is a few Roaches and ~4 Banelings. Roaches tank the PF for a few hits while the Banes go in and take out the workers. It's not a huge commitment, and it may very well even pay for itself even in the event that you lose all of it. If you can force the T to start mass repairing (bring more than a few Roaches), then that just clumps the SCVs up for the Banelings to be super effective. Once the damage is done, you pull back. If you managed to hit it while the opponent's army is out position (good scouting), then you should come out ahead in the exchange.
An equivalent strike force against a Nexus/Hatchery protected by a few towers would be able to completely destroy the expansion and possibly its workers if they do not run away. That's the problem with fortresses.
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On October 06 2010 11:05 Wr3k wrote:
PF is fine, PF+SCV's + retarded unit priority = broken mechanic.
I agree with this.
Whenever I want to bitch at PF I remember that the only other static D terran has is fricken' bunkers which require pop to use. So, I kind of like that terran gets a big fricken' turret.
Just the unit priority stuff is ridiculous.
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lol If terran is going MMM how exactly is that immobile?
Even if he's going mech or whatever, you're going to lose a good amount of units for taking on a PF; that is probably enforced with a sensor tower, turrets or tanks.
The argument that oh Terran is immobile so the PF is justifiable is stupid. Every race needs to have a weakness, so far it seems Terran is basically covered all around.
Terran is efficient early, mid and late game.
You also have the option of simply building defensive PFs since mules give you so much minerals.
The PF is a noob structure.
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Honestly, the only thing you people can say about the PF is that it's too cheap. maybe 250/150 or something? bang for buck, it's probably the best defensive structure in SC2.. even though it costs 550/150. If blizzard ever feels like making proper 'war sized' maps, immobility like has been said pretty much 340,000 times before, will become more apparent.
I'd like to also point out that the PF is the only (of 2) defensive structures that doesn't require army for its defensive abilities. which Zerg and Protoss both possess.
For all the QQing zergs, Blizzard just didn't spend the same love on you as they did Terrans.. i'm sure Zerg will be 'OP' when the exp comes out..
Reiteration: PF is too cheap, not OP.
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Here's a ZvT replay from tonight with me being super frustrated with the PF. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=155234
The battle is at 19:30. Both players are 1100-1400 diamond, and the T went random on ladder. When the battle started, the army sizes were:
zerg : 4500 min,, 2600 gas 149 supply (muta, roach ling infestor)
terran, 1000 min, 225 gas 61 supply (infantry)
And I couldn't take down the PF. Yes my positioning wasn't very good, and i should have had the roaches moved over to the top side and my muta control wasn't great. Keep in mind most of my attention was to get the infantry fungaled.
On the other hand, if my guys were able to attack priority the repairing SCVs, it would have been different. I don't care how bad my micro is, with an army discrepancy of that magnitude, I honestly think I should have been able to A-move to win that, especially with me getting the fungal off. Muta/Roach/ling/infestor isn't a wacky composition that should have so much trouble taking down an expansion with a small MM army defending.
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Imo, the main problem is that its shoring up a weakness.
The game is fun and balanced when each race has strengths, and weaknesses.
Terran having a strong army, but bad mobility, thats strength and weakness, sounds fine.
But the problem comes when the design tries to shore up the weaknesses instead of emphasizing the strength. Then, you either end up with one race being more powerful, or with all races being bland, and playing in pretty much the same way, since they have no specific strength or weakness anymore.
Its bad design imo. Strength and weakness >>> no weakness.
Its not just with SC though, its mostly every game. They have been doing it in WoW too, where instead of each class having unique purpose, and design, you can pretty much take any and have the same result. They call it "bring the player, not the class". I call it bland and uninteresting when it doesnt matter which race you pick.
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EPT
