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The PF sucks because the following:
Normal ZvP:
Protoss moves out.
Lings sneak into his Expansion and kick every Probe and the Nexus.
Normal ZvT:
Terran moves out.
Lings sneak into the Expansion and die whiteout doing a single thing.
Normal ZvP:
Protoss moves out.
He's getting mauled and at least his nearest expansion falls.
Normal ZvT:
Terran moves out.
He's getting mauled and his nearest expansion is still save because the left over army of the Zerg is not consisting of the right units to actually kill a PF.
It's just a retarded mechanic.
btw:
In SC/BW Terran also had no static defense except Bunkers... And guess what? They actually defended their expansions with their army! Mindboggling, isn't it?
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On October 06 2010 16:21 Fizbin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 16:03 kyarisan wrote:i think its time to bring back this little guy (happened to me during beta): + Show Spoiler +also as to a PF vs a mule: i think the reason terrans get a PF on their third is that their main is mined out by the time their third is up so they just send those SCV's to the third, they dont need to mule at it while building up the SCVs necessary to saturate. QUICK QUESTION... if u think u can take on the terrans army AND his PF why didnt u attack his main? SECOND QUESTION... if ur gunna storm stimmed marauders when there are 20 scv's all bunched up are u doing something right? THIRD QUESTION.... is this a good idea: lets stop targeting the PF and run the zealots into the scv line so more scv's can repair and the zealots bug out... or hey maybe we should have kept most the zealots on the PF and then target fired some of the scv's (prolly would have lost your whole army anyways because of positioning when marauders hit) FORTH QUESTION.... if your going to tech all the way to storm why are u pushing when u only have one templar... thats like saying as a zerg player im going to push with zergling roach but when i tech all the way to ultra im only gunna build one before i push if u dont know the answer to these questions please PM me and i will explain
i can answer questions 1 and 3 together by saying that its been a few months since that game but i'm pretty sure i just decided that i wanted to kill all of the SCV's at the expo, which is why i ran the chargelots into the mineral line, without anticipating that the scvs would all just put themselves on hold position or repair the PF while the PF attacked the zealots who were trying to get to the PF due to PF's being at the top of the food chain. i come from broodwar so this is exactly what i would have done to a completely unguarded command center back then. if the unit AI had functioned as i intended, the scvs would have mostly died and i could have run the zealots back through my stalker army to engage the bio army with the stalkers supporting. also i didn't attack his main because he had a wall-in and it's hard as hell to break a wall-in that has a concave of marauders and marines above a ramp, and i would lose a ton of shit trying to do so. either way, by the time my zealots got into the mineral line they were literally stuck and my army was doomed at that point.
2: i didn't want to storm all of my zealots that i had run in there to get some SCV kills, that would be beyond retarded
4: actually it's nothing like that and i didn't even need the HT to beat his whole army most likely.
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On October 06 2010 11:20 DuneBug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 11:05 Wr3k wrote:
PF is fine, PF+SCV's + retarded unit priority = broken mechanic.
I agree with this. Whenever I want to bitch at PF I remember that the only other static D terran has is fricken' bunkers which require pop to use. So, I kind of like that terran gets a big fricken' turret. Just the unit priority stuff is ridiculous.
Remember SC:BW???
Terran didn't have static ground defense either, and Zerg static ground defense was stronger back then.
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On October 06 2010 12:48 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 06:43 Klive5ive wrote:
PF just all around sucks.
I don't see professional Terran players of the future ever making one. Mules are just too dam powerful, once the macro of the game is "solved" to an extent players as good as Flash is now in BW are not going to waste the chance to Mule.
If they want defence.... bunkers + turrets.
To me it just seems nooby and pointless. Because nothing is more useless than a massive cannon that allows you to handle groups of units just by repairing it and gives you absurd defenders advantage in case of a full out attack. The problem with bunkers is that they waste population. When you consider the cost of the units inside, as well as the fact that those units are more or less idle, meaning your army is much smaller, bunkers really aren't that great except for temporary defense. Plus the nature of the Terran army is to grow much quicker in strength as numbers increase, which makes it all the worse that you have 4 marauders or 8 just doing nothing. You don't really have a super mobile unit like zergs have mutas and lings, so defending expansions without sacrificing army becomes a big pain. Hence why I absolutely adore my planetary fortresses and will always build one at my gold 
The problem with bunkers using population is not as severe as people make it out to be. Afterall, Zerg macromechanic via Queen --> uses 2 supply per queen.
As for PF... it wouldn't be so frustrating for most players if Terran also did not have a quick and easy way to snipe Z/P hatch/nexus.
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On October 06 2010 12:48 SubtleArt wrote:... so defending expansions without sacrificing army becomes a big pain. Hence why I absolutely adore my planetary fortresses and will always build one at my gold
Tell me about it. I don't play Terran, and it's always such a pain to have to sacrifice nearly every unit I have, including workers, to try to protect my expansions.
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Planetary fortress is one of the things I do like about terran.
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On October 06 2010 08:58 jinorazi wrote:
correct me if i'm wrong but i kinda see it as a balance.
protoss is able to warp in units if there are couple of pylons to defend it. zerg has its mobility and well, terran has nothing. stim mm i guess?
What you said is nonsense.. Protoss warpin helps to defend agains 10 lings, but not vs. whole army..
Zerg mobility? It's no more BW, in sc2 terran mobility > zerg mobility.
It's just stupid how many good options T has. They got sensor towers so no drops / mutas, the can lift their OC so it's safe, and then they have PF which requires army to kill, not to mention you can repair that thing.
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PF's in their current state scream "IM A SINGLE PLAYER STRUCTURE"
AoE damage + repair + stupid ai = day9 screaming at 50db for 5 minutes straight in your head.
Remove any of those 3 and suddenly PFs are beyond fine imho
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If the targeting priority would be any different, a ling run in can kill all SCVs while the PF gets maybe 3 shots off.
If repair wasn't as effective, the PF would go down so quickly that it would get maybe 5 shots off before it goes down when focused.
Both of these would make the PF investment absolutely ineffective for cost.
As is, the PF prevents the expansion from going down to drops or ling run-ins which I think is fine. You always have the option to go do something elsewhere with your units, use air units, target SCVs individually or use AoE. I mean, we don't complain about zerglings being useless against a colossus on a cliff either.
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Targeting priority is the problem, not the PF. If you have a fight -by- a Planetary fortress, your units will ignore theirs and go for the PF, given the chance. This is okay for Colossi since you're targeting with those anyways, but losing Stalker, Immortal or Zealot DPS is not fair. PF shouldn't have more impact on a fight than its cannon. Apart from the fact that the PF lies at the top of the priority food chain, the SCV repair priorities also make it virtually impossible to kill one without either a massive army, or colossi/templar. (Even then, I don't want to spend 30 actions targeting SCVs to take out an undefended expo.)
This usually doesn't matter, but on distance positions on a map like Metalopolis (in fact, this map is literally the worst for it), if they PF the gold it's going to be a very, very long game.
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On October 06 2010 07:07 Keitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 07:00 noD wrote:
You know that PF doesn´t attack air, right ? ofc they can't ... we're not saying they can. We are saying in combination with turrets, scvs, and possibly a thor/marines nearby... the only "effective" way to kill a PF is either by fungaling the SCVs.. a ton of Broods or Banelings Not really a good idea to do anything else anymore (Ultras are 'ineffective' now since the scvs don't die to cleave)
Ever heard of a timing window??! As in the expansion is vulnerable until it gets set up then you missed your chance for an easy snipe.
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On October 06 2010 21:30 trevf wrote:Ever heard of a timing window??! As in the expansion is vulnerable until it gets set up then you missed your chance for an easy snipe. Last time I checked, making an expansion invulnerable to conventional attacks cost much more than 150/150 for Protoss and Zerg. And walls of static defenses are actually blown away by nukes if it ever comes to that.
For the previous poster saying that this is like the Hellion thread we previously saw, which basically complained about how upgraded hellions could vaporize any light ground unit, I'd answer that making the PF more expensive or change the way the priority works does not make it unusable, unlike the hellion that would be just another reaper without its upgrade.
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Tbh, noone who understood high level RTS play (or even played semi competitively) would have thought that the PF was a good idea. Here you have something that makes map control less important, gives extremely cost effective defense and that never diminishes in strength as the game progresses (unlike cannons and spine crawlers).
I don't necessarily think they're broken, but its just so stupid that Terran can move their whole army army around and not even have to think about people harassing their third or fourth bases. In BW that was a serious problem, and something that high level players could take advantage of, and made positional play much more important. In SC2 theres none of that, you actually have to build a pretty large, high tech army in order to attack the PF, which is ridiculous.
If I could change one thing about the game I would remove the PF and repatch Terran around that.
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On October 06 2010 16:27 brain_ wrote:
Planetary Fortresses were definitely a "throw cool shit at Terran" idea that should have been cut in early beta. Terran already has the best defensive units in the game, and the best harassment, they shouldn't be able to hold expansions without even scouting the enemy coming...
you have it all wrong.
there are sensor towers.
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Just change AI priority to Reparing SCV > Combat unit > building > worker
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i think people are forgetting that zerg have the ability to transfuse building.
of course you'd need to keep you're queen alive for this, but attacking players can't be bother to micro anyways, or so i'm reading in this thread.
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On October 06 2010 20:32 eloist wrote:
If the targeting priority would be any different, a ling run in can kill all SCVs while the PF gets maybe 3 shots off.
If repair wasn't as effective, the PF would go down so quickly that it would get maybe 5 shots off before it goes down when focused.
Both of these would make the PF investment absolutely ineffective for cost.
As is, the PF prevents the expansion from going down to drops or ling run-ins which I think is fine. You always have the option to go do something elsewhere with your units, use air units, target SCVs individually or use AoE. I mean, we don't complain about zerglings being useless against a colossus on a cliff either.
The whole point of this thread is the fact that no, it isnt fine if a 150-150 upgrade makes you immune to harrassment.
It should be about as good as 3 or 4 cannons/spine crawlers, it shouldnt make your base immune to everything but a full on frontal attack.
Just think about it a little differently. Imagine if a spine crawlers had triple their current life, and did splash damage, enough of it that it was impossible to break through 3 of them with anything else than siege tanks or air. Would feel pretty imbalanced, right? 
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About the so called terran immobility :
Overlord upgraded speed : 1.83
Warp Prism speed : 2.5
Medivac speed : 2.75.
That is all I have to say 
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On October 06 2010 08:50 Sylvr wrote:
A PF takes a bit of finesse to take out. It's generally a pretty bad idea to just 1a into it and hope for the best. It reminds me of the Tank Line debate from not-so-very-long-ago. People think it's impregnable, but really it just takes some poking and prodding till you find an opening.
I always like trying to look at things from a different angle, and the angle that sticks out in this case is: It's not the PF that you want to take out, it's the opponent's income that the PF is helping to protect. Sure, taking out the base entirely is preferable, but if it's gonna cost you half of your army, then it's obviously not worth it.
When I think of nullifying a PF as a Zerg, the idea that comes to mind is a few Roaches and ~4 Banelings. Roaches tank the PF for a few hits while the Banes go in and take out the workers. It's not a huge commitment, and it may very well even pay for itself even in the event that you lose all of it. If you can force the T to start mass repairing (bring more than a few Roaches), then that just clumps the SCVs up for the Banelings to be super effective. Once the damage is done, you pull back. If you managed to hit it while the opponent's army is out position (good scouting), then you should come out ahead in the exchange.
Infesters can be utilized for similar/superior results.
As a Protoss, I'm thinking Sentries. Force Field around the back half of the PF so the SCVs can't reach it (similar to what we saw a couple players do to Bunkers in GSL), and use a decent number of Stalkers to take it down. I don't think anyone is complaining about the PF without the mass repair, so if you disable that part of the combo, it should be ok right?
Alternately, of course, is the High Templar, which should go without saying.
These are just my opinions, of course. I realize that the situation doesn't always allow for these sorts of tactics, but I'm just trying to point out the fundamental goal of assaulting a base, PF or not. Consider also that the T isn't likely to stop sending SCVs to a PF base, so it could serve as a continuous harass target, almost like bait.
PFs as static defense might be a different issue altogether, but then, if they aren't at a mineral line already, then that means the T is either not intending to repair it, should it come under attack, or is going to have to commit SCVs away from mining, which IMO nullifies the advantages.
Yeah everyone have thought of those stuff. Roaches+Banelings etc. etc. HT, Sentries, and other stuff. However Some Marauders just 1A+T on ur nexus and gone in seconds. Economy + Base gone. The amount of complications the other race needs to do to achieve the same goal compare to the simplicity of a 1 unit composition and "lesser" supply is rather broken.
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EPT
