EPT[D] The Planetary Fortress - Page 11
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shynee
Canada180 Posts
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On October 08 2010 09:49 DaZe wrote: lol how can ppl complain about scvs repairing when they have 40 hp and everyone agrees on PF being a bitch on the second expansion. By that time both zerg and protoss should have either banelings/muta or colo/storm. If you can agree on that there shouldnt be any problem killing the repairing scvs without losing too much, and if that's too hard I believe SC2 wont make it in the long run... It's a terrible inconvenience to have to focus down the scvs one by one. Fine, if you have storm or colossi or baneling then you can take it down pretty easily if you have a huge army advantage. However, if the game is fairly even you simply can't attack. A lot of your units (e.g. units in back) will target the PF while his PF and his army tears apart your army. It just promotes turtling and it's a bad addition to the game. It's just a horrible idea. Game design wise. And the execution (given the annoyance regarding targetting scvs mentioned above) is perhaps even worse. | ||
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shynee
Canada180 Posts
On October 09 2010 06:10 ParasitJonte wrote: It's a terrible inconvenience to have to focus down the scvs one by one. Fine, if you have storm or colossi or baneling then you can take it down pretty easily if you have a huge army advantage. However, if the game is fairly even you simply can't attack. A lot of your units (e.g. units in back) will target the PF while his PF and his army tears apart your army. It just promotes turtling and it's a bad addition to the game. It's just a horrible idea. Game design wise. And the execution (given the annoyance regarding targetting scvs mentioned above) is perhaps even worse. Since SC1, turtling has been a Terran strategy. You on the other hand can take advantage of this by picking up additional expansions. You can also attack the bases that have the orbital command. All the PF does is give Terran some mobility because the army so damn immobile (not talking about MMM). Terran doesn't have spine crawlers/canons, and putting up 2/3 bunkers is just using up supply that will be needed in a fight. I would trade the PF for stationary ground defense any day. | ||
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gun.slinger
Canada258 Posts
Game breaking ! Blizzard should let player bring a drone/probe with their army  | ||
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Zamiel
United States211 Posts
On October 06 2010 08:10 travis wrote: it's the repairing that is the problem this is obvious u can just repair them too quickly and the scvs are too hard to target sometimes (which is the really stupid part) THIS It's been talked about a lot in this thread. There are perhaps many issues with the Planetary Fortress, but I am going to hone in on one of them. The attack priority on SCVs repairing a PF is at the bottom of the list. Complicate this by having: 1) workers hard to target 2) shift-right-clicking 20 workers is very difficult and also makes for inefficient melee attack move patterns (while the PF blasts away at everything) Judging from this thread, it's one of the biggest issues with the Planetary Fortress, and in my opinion the BIGGEST issue. A great fix is to just have the attack priority on a SCV repairing a Planetary Fortress automatically go above that of the PF itself. (But not higher than other army units, obviously, since then a Terran could micro SCVs to "kite" the attacking army.) With this change, an attack-moving army would actually be able to deal with a PF. Now I know how bad that sounds: there's nothing intrinsically good about "removing" micro from the game. But it's definitely better than the ridiculous SCV targeting situations that go on right now. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of those changes that you are surprised is not already in the game by default, as it feels like that should be the default behavior. | ||
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Kaitsuh
Finland45 Posts
On October 09 2010 07:52 Zamiel wrote: THIS It's been talked about a lot in this thread. The attack priority on SCVs repairing a PF is at the bottom of the list. Complicate this by having: 1) workers are hard to target 2) shift-right-clicking 20 workers is very difficult and also makes for inefficient melee attack move patterns (while the PF blasts away at everything) Judging from this thread, it's one of the biggest issues with the Planetary Fortress, and in my opinion the BIGGEST issue. A great fix is to just have the attack priority on a SCV repairing a Planetary Fortress automatically go above that of the PF itself. (But not higher than other army units, obviously, since then a Terran could micro SCVs to "kite" the attacking army.) With this change, an attack-moving army would actually be able to deal with a PF. Now I know how bad that sounds: there's nothing intrinsically good about "removing" micro from the game. But it's definitely better than the ridiculous SCV targeting situations that go on right now. The problem you described is indeed messed up, but upgrading attack priority for repairing SCVs won't solve the issue, it would just bring a new type of microing option for the terran. "Now I'm repairing, now I'm not repairing, now I'm repairing again, oooh now I'm not repairing anymore" while microing a couple of workers on the other side of the PF. Or doing that to some workers which are enveloped by non-repairing workers, making the melee units go crazy still. Or actually it would help a little I guess. At least would reduce the repairing speed. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
nevertheless just look at the two situations: a) terran goes for drops; all he has to do is to drop 2 medivacs full of marauders, stim and kill a nexus within seconds; if he doesn't drop basicly on top of the protoss the nexus WILL go down within seconds; terran doesn't need to do any specific micro at all b) protoss goes for PF-kill: protoss is forced to have colossi; no colossi = PF is basicly invincible anyways; no other unit can touch the PF; this being said, the protoss player should send in individual units like zealots to soak up hits while colossi hit the repairing SCVs; this is HIGHLY micro-intensive it's indeed both problems combined which screws things up - the PF-repair on the one hand would be fine if there were no insta-nexus-snipes; the nexus-snipes would be fine if protoss could at least kill expos with superior forces easily as well; both added together means the protoss has to invest more APM to stay even, which basicly means he has to be higher skilled to come out on top I think, originally the PF was intended to even out the terran mobility-disadvantage (I think this was mentioned in one post); nevertheless - at least in PvT - terran HAS NO mobility-disadvantage; in fact they are MORE mobile than protoss; if MMM didn't work so well in lategame, this thread possibly wouldn't exist | ||
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Zamiel
United States211 Posts
The problem you described is indeed messed up, but upgrading attack priority for repairing SCVs won't solve the issue, it would just bring a new type of microing option for the terran. "Now I'm repairing, now I'm not repairing, now I'm repairing again, oooh now I'm not repairing anymore" while microing a couple of workers on the other side of the PF. In theory yes... But what units would this be effective against? Any Terran unit - Once in the midst of battle with the PF+repairers, they will be able to target any SCV repairing without moving around the PF too much (if at all). Hydra - Same goes for Hydra. Stalker/Sentry - Same goes for Stalker/Sentry. Zerglings - With zergling speed they will be able to zip around a PF very quickly so I don't think that kiting would be effective. Roach - Since the roach has a small range, this would be a cool trick to do against a bunch of roaches attacking your PF. But they are upgrading Roach range... Zealots - Would be effective against Zealots. However, you have to take into account that they will have a bunch of Stalker+Sentry with them 95% of the time Any large army - Completely uneffective, as there will be too many range units. | ||
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leecH
Germany385 Posts
i just fail to see the point of a PF. thinking about a nexus with a huge fucking cannon is kind of funny. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On October 09 2010 06:05 shynee wrote: Bio is not immobile... Tanks/Thors are. Especially since you can fake the Terran player out every 2 seconds, making him leap frog the entire map.. siege, unsiege, siege, unsiege. And lets not get started with Thors. Tank-thors isnt really that much more immobile than say broodlord-hydra. Yet somehow, even though zerg also has a super slow siege unit, its still considered more mobile than terran, who also has a super slow siege unit. Why? Mostly because that was the case in brrodwar, where you didnt get free dropships, did a lot of immobile sieged up play on large maps, leapfrogging, and zerg didnt need to have creep to the able to move at the same speed as a bioball. | ||
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goodvibes
Canada51 Posts
I win a lot of games - masterOFbate #155. I average about 70-90 apm, but mostly play on a couch (mattress as my mousepad). 2200 D Over the months I have QQ about imba all over the place since the start of beta. However, today, I see 4 "problems" (not necessarily op/up) with gameplay and the PF/Thor/Tank/BC makes one of those 4. other 3: - upgrades on stalker (should be 11+5a u=1/+1a) - makes a huge difference - rework FF - it's broken - either or skill - Cooldown on marauder concussive - self-explanatory: charge lots have it. The problem I have with terran repair-ables is they can generally require a tech change to take out. This is just ridiculous. I will not reiterate, although I would love to, what others have written. I think it is the most over powered ability in the game. The solution follows 3 adjustments to repair: Repair speed SIGNIFICANTLY reduced Formula: SCV=X Additional SCV= x/4+x/4 --> 4scvs will result in a 100% increase in base repair speed. However, there needs to be Diminishing returns taken into account, specific to unit costs. Tank = $150 minerals .'. repair with max scvs (3) = 75% repair increase Thor = $300 minerals .'. max repair = 6, with an optimal repair speed increase of 150% (1+2/4) PF = $550 = max repair = 11, optimal repair speed increase of 375% Cost to repair Cost = forumula: base * %down/to repair. 1500 pf = 550/150 every % of health repair cost =0.01*550m + 0.01*150g This is then ^ damage intake. I'm not a math major (accountant), but these numbers work and follow current logic. As it stands, terran remain unaffected by repairing it. Only so many repairs that something can be repaired. Formula: Unit a almost died. Unit a was repaired 100%. Unit a nolonger has ANY parts used for its initial construction. unit A is now known as unit a^2, as it has no similar parts that are related (on paper) to its original construct. Maybe after 1 repair, if someone is then injured, it cannot be repaired? ...maybe not the best idea, but it's something. My food for thought. The math works and I think this post deserves recognition. User was warned for this post | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
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MetalSlug
Germany443 Posts
im a 1900 random diamond player and it usualy works for me. ppl have to understand that loosing your worker is 10x worse for terran than loosing the expo itself. when im z, i usualy just send 3 lings + 4-6 banes, lings take the first hits and the enemy usualy wont notice until its to late. for protoss its pretty much selfexplainig how you harras with your phoenix. new patch will make this strat even better and it leaves you prepared for vikings and medivacs . oh i forgot to add that droping banelings into pf mineralline is even more effective and easy to execute. just queqe up some drop points between the scvs and watch them go boom | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
On December 25 2010 22:24 goodvibes wrote: Sorry for bringing this back to life, but I searched threads and found this topic. Instead of creating a new post, I am just posting my 2 cents, now (2200 d) I consider it to have a valid logic to it. I win a lot of games - masterOFbate #155. I average about 70-90 apm, but mostly play on a couch (mattress as my mousepad). 2200 D Over the months I have QQ about imba all over the place since the start of beta. However, today, I see 4 "problems" (not necessarily op/up) with gameplay and the PF/Thor/Tank/BC makes one of those 4. other 3: - upgrades on stalker (should be 11+5a u=1/+1a) - makes a huge difference - rework FF - it's broken - either or skill - Cooldown on marauder concussive - self-explanatory: charge lots have it. The problem I have with terran repair-ables is they can generally require a tech change to take out. This is just ridiculous. I will not reiterate, although I would love to, what others have written. I think it is the most over powered ability in the game. The solution follows 3 adjustments to repair: Repair speed SIGNIFICANTLY reduced Formula: SCV=X Additional SCV= x/4+x/4 --> 4scvs will result in a 100% increase in base repair speed. However, there needs to be Diminishing returns taken into account, specific to unit costs. Tank = $150 minerals .'. repair with max scvs (3) = 75% repair increase Thor = $300 minerals .'. max repair = 6, with an optimal repair speed increase of 150% (1+2/4) PF = $550 = max repair = 11, optimal repair speed increase of 375% Cost to repair Cost = forumula: base * %down/to repair. 1500 pf = 550/150 every % of health repair cost =0.01*550m + 0.01*150g This is then ^ damage intake. I'm not a math major (accountant), but these numbers work and follow current logic. As it stands, terran remain unaffected by repairing it. Only so many repairs that something can be repaired. Formula: Unit a almost died. Unit a was repaired 100%. Unit a nolonger has ANY parts used for its initial construction. unit A is now known as unit a^2, as it has no similar parts that are related (on paper) to its original construct. Maybe after 1 repair, if someone is then injured, it cannot be repaired? ...maybe not the best idea, but it's something. My food for thought. The math works and I think this post deserves recognition. User was warned for this post If you lose to BC/PF/Thor/Tank as Toss and try to counter those with stalkers you got more serious problems than balance. | ||
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