EPTI hope Blizzard forms their proleague (above Diamond) sooner, and starts working closely with those players through something like another quick beta session. Because they're clearly too reluctant to experiment with the whole ladder - understandable - and they still need major changes.
IdrA Speaks On: Patch 1.1 - Page 3
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figq
12519 Posts
I hope Blizzard forms their proleague (above Diamond) sooner, and starts working closely with those players through something like another quick beta session. Because they're clearly too reluctant to experiment with the whole ladder - understandable - and they still need major changes. | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:45 NATO wrote: I don't understand how nerfing makes a race stronger. I guess Idra has more insight than I do. He's talking about TvP with regards to the zealot nerf. Tanks weren't being used a ton anyway in TvP, I don't think. I could be wrong. | ||
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ionlyplayPROtoss
Canada573 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:58 okaygo wrote: I think IdrA's a pretty cool guy, eh post about patch notes and doesn't afraid of anything. I agree that not much has changed in ZvT. thats why i don't understand why people are hatin but i guess haters gonna hate :l | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
There is no need for drastic changes. If a terran builds a rax then a reaper then starts on a second reaper and 2 more raxes then produces 3 out of all of them then pushes then He will have 5 reapers (with speed) delayed by about 15 sec (probably closer to 10 on faster) I can't count how many times I've watched a replay where the terran does what I have described here. The zerg does what they are supposed to but speed is not quite done or a spine crawler is not quite ready. An extra 10-15 sec could be enough time for one of these things to finish. Give it 2 weeks or so before you start assuming it won't fix anything if zvp is becoming more and more p stacked as time progresses with no p buffs and no z nerfs that just means p have figured out something they can do. I don't watch many zvp MU's but lets just say the thing that toss are doing that break the MU is they get there +1 attack upgrade really fast and zerg players are walking around dumbfounded as to how to beat it. They QQ on the forums and blizzard gives in and decides to double the buildtime of the forge to slow the upgrade a little bit. Right before this patch goes live a genius zerg realizes that you could just upgrade the carapace to equalize this said imbalance. In the meantime since this change has already taken affect zvt changes cuz now toss has trouble keeping up with terran upgrading. But by changeing the buildtime of the forge 5-10 sec will allow zerg players a little bit more time when trying to decide what to do and won't change other things significantly. Yes I know my example here seems a little obvious what the zerg should do. Ty blizzard for remaining patient and not making any dramatic changes. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Fruitseller's recent comments on the state of Zerg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155310 Morrow admitting TvZ is imba... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145594 Battle.nets own EU Top 200 http://eu.battle.net/sc2/de/blog/4078 74 The top 22 on the ladder are non-zerg: http://sc2ranks.com/ Here are just a few of the players off the top of my head who openly admit ZvT is broken: Idra, Artosis, Dimaga, Psystarcraft, Morrow, Drewbie, TLO, Sheth, Sen, MasterAsia Then take a look at the recent tournament results... GSL included. Just wanted some overwhelming evidence to preempt the TLer's who claim the game is balanced. Making such a claim should be equated with trolling IMO. The real question is, why doesn't Blizzard take real action? | ||
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Anzat
United States90 Posts
The design flaws with zerg are just enormous, and no amount of subtle stat-tweaking is going to fix that. Every race with a weakness should have a complementary strength -- what zerg got instead is a pile of self-multiplying weaknesses. For example, we're the only race that can't reasonably wall off to deny early attacks and crucial early-midgame scouting, while both our other opponents can. Furthermore, we depend more on scouting and reacting than the other races. To compensate for these weaknesses, we at least get incredibly easy and effective scouting with scanner sweep.... wait, no. Terran got that. We're the only race with zero anti-air as part of our core T1 army... and our supply flies. At least we got the best stationary defense in the game, which detect, hit both air and ground, and don't cost us a worker... oh, wait. Protoss got that. And they can be built anywhere and faster than ours, too. At least ours can move, and by move of course I mean stand up and dance their little roots around for 12 seconds while they get killed without firing a shot. It goes on and on like this. This game won't be balanced until there are some RADICAL changes. Overlord speed goes to tier 1 and back to 50/50. Speedlings get to finally use their wings for a weak anti-air attack, perhaps some leaping melee thing that isn't useful for mid-game air wars but helps fend off that first banshee. And some of the overpowered P/T stuff will STILL need nerfs: for example, there needs to be a way to micro to make void rays lose their charge, and toss need to be forced to use some micro to maintain their charge. Right now the "shoot a building and then kill the whole opposing army in 5 seconds" thing isn't balanced. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On September 24 2010 11:11 terranghost wrote: While it may or may not help its effects have yet to be seen really. There is no need for drastic changes. If a terran builds a rax then a reaper then starts on a second reaper and 2 more raxes then produces 3 out of all of them then pushes then He will have 5 reapers (with speed) delayed by about 15 sec (probably closer to 10 on faster) I can't count how many times I've watched a replay where the terran does what I have described here. The zerg does what they are supposed to but speed is not quite done or a spine crawler is not quite ready. An extra 10-15 sec could be enough time for one of these things to finish. Give it 2 weeks or so before you start assuming it won't fix anything if zvp is becoming more and more p stacked as time progresses with no p buffs and no z nerfs that just means p have figured out something they can do. I don't watch many zvp MU's but lets just say the thing that toss are doing that break the MU is they get there +1 attack upgrade really fast and zerg players are walking around dumbfounded as to how to beat it. They QQ on the forums and blizzard gives in and decides to double the buildtime of the forge to slow the upgrade a little bit. Right before this patch goes live a genius zerg realizes that you could just upgrade the carapace to equalize this said imbalance. In the meantime since this change has already taken affect zvt changes cuz now toss has trouble keeping up with terran upgrading. But by changeing the buildtime of the forge 5-10 sec will allow zerg players a little bit more time when trying to decide what to do and won't change other things significantly. Yes I know my example here seems a little obvious what the zerg should do. Ty blizzard for remaining patient and not making any dramatic changes. Prime example of someone who hasn't read the article (or has poor reading comprehension) but feels like putting out his rant anyways. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
Idra: These changes would have made for a good patch a month ago, as is it is definitely not enough, and won't have much of an impact on the balance situation. Hopefully if Blizzard takes another month to release the next patch it will be a more meaningful one. While I'm glad that Blizz is taking their time with balance issues, I have to agree with Idra. While 1.1 deals with alot of issues, there are some big ones that did not get addressed. Hopefully in another month from now we will see a more encompassing patch. I'm surprised he had nothing to say about Blizz's destructible rocks map-fix, though I can imagine what he would say on the subject... On September 24 2010 10:59 figq wrote: Idra is being quite fair about the Protoss situation as well, which doesn't look good too, in early game. Sure, they survive, but if a race is supposed to cannon rush to survive.. Cannon rushing isn't necessary for protoss, a lot of gold and plat players are doing it just because it's easy wins. While it does seem a bit overpowered, lets face it a player who does good scouting will beat a cannon rushing player any day. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
Prior to Boxer, everyone thought the Terrans were weak and underpowered. Then all off a sudden, came a sudden surge in Terrans (Boxer, Nada, iloveoov) showing how powerful they really are. Then, everyone thought Zergs were weak. But along came July (Mutalisk stacking) and Savior (Defiler usage). When the 6 Dragons were centre-stage, the Protoss were all but invincible. Thus, I disagree with Idra. I believe balance changes should be made slowly. Let the changes take impact and see how they impact the Zerg's success. If, after a month or so, it is not enough, further changes can be made. Another way Blizzard can balance is through maps. I'm interested in the stats for Metalopolis. | ||
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Xunaka
United States43 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:43 De4ngus wrote: I don't get why Blizzard doesn't realize the problem here is with Zerg. Patching Terran and Protoss doesn't do anything useful. Now tanks can't even be used TvP. Please continue to have that mentality, as a Protoss player I would greatly appreciate if everyone thought tanks cannot be used in TvP. The reality is they are just as strong as they were pre patch 1.1 but that isn't even the point of what Idra is saying. I think a lot of the problems just stem from the way Zerg units are compared to either Protoss or Terran. Zerg units are just very one dimensional and are designed in a very gimmicky sense. Zerglings : Weak Melee unit very easily massable but later in game you just lose them in masses The gimmick is the massing of the unit Roaches : Moderatly strong Melee/Range unit I label it as such because of their very weak range Gimmick is that you need speed to prevent them from being annihilated by kiting, Burrow Micro/movement make them a decent gimmick Banelings: Total gimmick unit.. you suicide them at units I don't think this needs explanation Hydralisk: Comes to be one of the most solid units that you will find in the Zerg army, it is well rounded and diverse however its gimmick is that you suffer from Damage/vs survivability they are simply weak I believe the best term to describe them is Glass Cannon Mutalisk: Another well rounded solid unit.. (seems to be the common ground for zerg tier 2) Solid damage for cost ratio, I don't personally find these to be gimmicky Infestor : Is medium to average as a caster, I think in comparrison to Ravens and Templar its a bit weak, infested Terran is gimicky. Fungal growth is decent to good, however it is nowhere near as useful as Storm/HSM/PDD Corruptor: Gimmicky anti air unit, corruption spell is a bit of a gimmick most of the time the 10% wont make a difference because of how many you have. (No way to attack ground units like Vikings/Phoenix) (Massive oversight in my opinion) Ultralisk: Strong tanking melee unit, Gimmick is that its a ground only attack tier 3 unit. That suffers from serious path finding issues. I think the Ultra could be an outstanding unit if I didn't lose them to the games AI sending them to their death or getting stuck on random terrain/units While I like the idea of Micro.. I shouldn't have to Micro a unit just to make up for AI Broodlord: Very strong siege unit, attacks ground only can severely screw with unit targeting against a non micro opponent. Once again i feel as though this unit is limited by its anti ground only where as BC and Carrier both have Anti air/ground capability. I'm fully aware that each race his its own gimmick unit though Terran seems to have the most well rounded out of them all. the simple fact is that zerg suffers from a one dimensional creation of almost every unit.. they all serve only one role and that one role alone where as the racial counterparts are far less one dimensional units. | ||
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
Just get Zerg to a similar level, and your'e good. | ||
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On September 24 2010 11:16 TheToast wrote: While I'm glad that Blizz is taking their time with balance issues, I have to agree with Idra. While 1.1 deals with alot of issues, there are some big ones that did not get addressed. Hopefully in another month from now we will see a more encompassing patch. I'm surprised he had nothing to say about Blizz's destructible rocks map-fix, though I can imagine what he would say on the subject... Cannon rushing isn't necessary for protoss, a lot of gold and plat players are doing it just because it's easy wins. While it does seem a bit overpowered, lets face it a player who does good scouting will beat a cannon rushing player any day. The "cannon rush" IdrA was talking about was the double pylon and cannon at the ramp. Plus Top has now shown us an even sicker way of doing it on Metalopolis. It's just to delay Z's expo and allow P to get a super fast one. | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
given the stats from GSL, i dont think its T's OP but rather Z's UP. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote: Absolutely agree from a Zerg player's perspective. The reaper nerf is nice but that's not what's troublesome. If you know it's coming, it's not too hard to deal with. The problem is not being able to scout. how did Z scout in BW? | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:55 ryanAnger wrote: If TvP is fairly balanced, then why not just make changes to Zerg? Just buff a couple things, and see how it works. That makes the most sense to me... TvP is not balanced. The disparity between early and late game play coupled with Blizzard's patch is confounding: The Terran are definitely the aggressors in the first half of the game, and the roles flip when psi storm is out. The balance changes to the tank make them less viable (I don't know if they are useless) and the zealot build time increase makes Terran aggression all the more stronger in early game. It seems like a very poor way to balance this matchup, although I'm certain they were thinking about the implications in PvZ and TvZ. Also, it is evident they did not play test this patch through internally, or if they did, it was very minimally. The oversight of the ultralisk attack on buildings is pretty telling in this matter. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
Zerg were the aggressor with mutalisks in BW, and Terrans really only had 1-2 viable builds for the early-mid game so it wasn't a problem. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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