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United States1090 Posts
On September 26 2010 00:09 TheKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 20:47 Competent wrote: ZvT and ZvP will remain largely unchanged while the balance issues in TvP will only be made worse, terran will now be even stronger early and protoss even stronger late in the game. Honestly I don't understand how a race will become stronger after a nerf. I'll say it again, I think Idra is full of shit. Races can still become more powerful overtime even if they are nerfed because players generally keep getting better and better and are able to learn to utilise more of their race's potential.
/facepalm
That has nothing to do with what he said. He was trying to sound like he knew more than idrA when in reality he doesn't even know more than most players on this forum as I've already seen 2-3 people put him in his place.
Zealot nerf = weaker P early game
Tank nerf = weaker T late game
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Okay so people were saying ZvT is imbalanced, hasn't anyone seen + Show Spoiler +Fruitseller's recent ZvT? got to ultras and he cleaned house EASILY, I don't know if that splash is a mistake or they will leave it.
edit: I do agree early game and transitions ZvT is still broken though.
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+ Show Spoiler +
top only lost game 3 coz he forgot to upgrade weapon and armor of the mass thors ....
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Idra thinks the TvZ balance situation is pretty severe. That being the case, I don't know how he could possibly expect that a single balance patch should fix everything (I could be reading his intentions wrong). Balance patches are necessarily going to be small changes. To demand otherwise is to expose yourself as completely ignorant to the balance process. Blizzard makes balance changes based on data. And to get good data, you can't just force a bunch of changes all at once. You have to isolate the variables; tweak things a little bit at a time, and see how they play out. That's just good science. Personally I'm happy blizzard didn't jump the gun in response to all the negativity. Just be happy that they seem to be moving in the right direction. You guys who are complaining that the patch isn't good enough need to realize that your expectations are too high. The sort of patch you're asking for is just too ambitious.
The second thing is this. Just think what the response from casual/new players would be if the game changed so drastically just after a couple months. What are they supposed to expect? Are they going to be playing a completely different game every other month? Is every patch going to be like this? First impressions guys. First impressions. That's what blizzard needs right now. And, that said, I think they've done an awesome job showing the community they care with this first patch. Bug fixes are something they are expected to do. But new features? cool new icons? That's awesome! Patch 1.1 is not just a balance patch. Blizzard doesn't want to make the players feel like they're still playing a beta that is "in the works." Try and be reasonable and see the bigger picture. Blizzard is responsible for a big diverse crowd, not just TL and its meta-gaming ilk.
So be positive! I can't imagine how much a negative attitude towards my race could stagnate my growth as a player. That can't be good at all.
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We should just basicly ask IdrA what he thinks would be good changes instead of asking him to destroy every change blizzard makes.
I love IdrA, but when will we see him satisfied with the state of the game? (perhaps when he wins all the time...)
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On September 26 2010 01:44 deViation- wrote:
We should just basicly ask IdrA what he thinks would be good changes instead of asking him to destroy every change blizzard makes.
I love IdrA, but when will we see him satisfied with the state of the game? (perhaps when he wins all the time...)
I think IdrA will be happy when the game is balanced.
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My 2 cents is that Blizzard should have retooled Zerg back in Beta. It was so blatantly obvious right from the beginning that Zerg had huge issues.
Terran and Protoss have a good handful of new units and casters that make for some really nice synergy throughout the game. Zerg is the "OMG we spent all out time doing cool stuff with Terran and Protoss" race haha.
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On September 26 2010 01:34 freezeframe wrote:
Idra thinks the TvZ balance situation is pretty severe. That being the case, I don't know how he could possibly expect that a single balance patch should fix everything (I could be reading his intentions wrong). Balance patches are necessarily going to be small changes. To demand otherwise is to expose yourself as completely ignorant to the balance process. Blizzard makes balance changes based on data. And to get good data, you can't just force a bunch of changes all at once. You have to isolate the variables; tweak things a little bit at a time, and see how they play out. That's just good science. Personally I'm happy blizzard didn't jump the gun in response to all the negativity. Just be happy that they seem to be moving in the right direction. You guys who are complaining that the patch isn't good enough need to realize that your expectations are too high. The sort of patch you're asking for is just too ambitious.
The complaints are a natural side effect of the simple fact that the game went out of beta too early. Throughout beta, if you saw a major problem, you could at least tell yourself, 'Well, it's just a beta, they'll fix it before release.' Well, guess what? It got released, and we still have significant issues on a basic structural level that shouldn't have made it out of beta. Now, patches are the only thing people have to cling to. People aren't going to stop complaining just because the kinds of changes that need to be done 'can't' be done in a typical patch. Blizzard put themselves in this situation, so they have only themselves to blame for it. And not holding them accountable for it as a side effect of understanding the standard patching process is silly.
On September 26 2010 01:34 freezeframe wrote:
The second thing is this. Just think what the response from casual/new players would be if the game changed so drastically just after a couple months. What are they supposed to expect? Are they going to be playing a completely different game every other month? Is every patch going to be like this?
Casual players aren't going to care about most of the things that patches change in the first place. Zergling stats tweaked up or down? Who cares, so long as it's still fast cheap swarming melee. But even if they did care, the whole mmorpg genre shows that you can make absolutely massive changes in a game without necessarily turning off new players from it. In fact, massive changes are often your only hope to reach an audience you wouldn't normally reach.
On September 26 2010 01:34 freezeframe wrote:
First impressions guys. First impressions. That's what blizzard needs right now. And, that said, I think they've done an awesome job showing the community they care with this first patch. Bug fixes are something they are expected to do. But new features? cool new icons? That's awesome! Patch 1.1 is not just a balance patch. Blizzard doesn't want to make the players feel like they're still playing a beta that is "in the works."
Then they should have stuck to their words and not released it until it was ready in the first place. Leaving bad mechanics in place to give an appearance of balance without the reality of it is idiotic, and most players are well-informed enough to know the difference between the two these days.
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On September 25 2010 05:10 BluRa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 04:35 YueY. wrote:
I was a zerg player in bw and I feel that zerg is almost exactly the same way in sc2 than it is in bw. I mean he is complaining about zerg being hard countered by a lot of things when you go early hatch at your natural, well it was the same way in bw..you could get cheesed or all inned 50 different ways vs p or t, it all comes down to your drone count really, knowing when to make drones at X time and when to make lings or a spine crawler early on. I mean yeah its really annoying because if you don't scout it fast enough or at all you just have to guess which is retarded, but when you play enough and learn the game more you then have to guess less and more doors are closed as to what he is doing and you can narrow it down pretty quickly. I don't really know the mid game at all zvt because I don't play z in sc2 ,but that is just my thought for the early game zvt. I disagree that they are the same, but even if they were the same thats the problem, terran and protoss got better, but zerg stayed the same.
What do you mean zerg stayed the same? Honestly I would say zerg is the most different overall in sc2 mid and late game compared to terran and protoss, but the first 3-4 minutes of the game is pretty much exactly the same for all 3 races as it was in sc1...other than reapers early game vs z, though even with a reaper rush you will still need to cut drones at X time to make X lings to optimally beat his rush without over linging and not having enough drones for 5 minutes later. I don't see what is so different about the early game.
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On September 26 2010 02:45 Adonai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 01:44 deViation- wrote:
We should just basicly ask IdrA what he thinks would be good changes instead of asking him to destroy every change blizzard makes.
I love IdrA, but when will we see him satisfied with the state of the game? (perhaps when he wins all the time...) I think IdrA will be happy when the game is balanced.
Idra cried about Protoss in SC1, even though that game is generally considered very balanced. It's fine to rage after losing a game (happens to everyone), but don't blame the game for your lose.
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On September 26 2010 06:36 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:45 Adonai wrote:On September 26 2010 01:44 deViation- wrote:
We should just basicly ask IdrA what he thinks would be good changes instead of asking him to destroy every change blizzard makes.
I love IdrA, but when will we see him satisfied with the state of the game? (perhaps when he wins all the time...) I think IdrA will be happy when the game is balanced. Idra cried about Protoss in SC1, even though that game is generally considered very balanced. It's fine to rage after losing a game (happens to everyone), but don't blame the game for your lose.
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![[image loading]](http://i25.tinypic.com/25iambd.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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Come to think of it the only problems with early Zealots was proxy and 2gate rushes, and as Zerg I could almost always hold them off especially with my ZvP build having early Banelings, although I don't watch much PvT it does seem like protoss may be screwed with how much later their Zealots will be out, but hey, at least Reapers are slowed too.
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On September 26 2010 00:16 dRaW wrote:Okay so people were saying ZvT is imbalanced, hasn't anyone seen + Show Spoiler +Fruitseller's recent ZvT? got to ultras and he cleaned house EASILY, I don't know if that splash is a mistake or they will leave it. Either way, they should have focused more on cleaning up the early game and transitions from early to midgame and midgame to late game. I also find when I see all the GSL PvT games, Terran can still easily rush and the P can't really do much about it. This results in 1 base T being really strong vs any expanding, even late expanding P play so I find T dictates how the game will turn out in all matchups. edit: I do agree early game and transitions ZvT is still broken though.
are you joking?
the guy didn't have marauders or siege tanks; t's two answers to ultras.
he went pure thor and turtled?! what did he expect, mass muta after cool had seen many many many thors?
ultras are SPLASH with bonus against armored; if they didn't beat pure thor when 15 of them (imagine 15 collosus, or against thor, 30 immortals, same unit value as 15 ultra) spawned to instantly replaced a huge army, this would be a huge joke.
cool simply completely outplayed him..
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Well, after playing a couple of hours today after the patch, I really don't feel that much of a difference in terms of protoss gameplay, and it feels more or less like before, so I am not even sure how noticable the changes actually are. We got some new icons, but I don't even like them  That's so typical Blizzard, they did that for WoW as well. They tossed in a lot of unnecessary changes like icon types for spells, but didn't really address the issues they had to address.
Anyway, I trust Idra's judgement. At first I was thinking he was a big jerk, but I've come to respect him over time. He does have a huge insight into the game balance, and once you stop taking his raging seriously... it becomes pure humor. I'm disappointed Blizzard didn't do anything to balance zerg.
Protoss still steamroll zerg late game, especially if it's a bad, bad zerg player who doesn't expo when needed.
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I keep on saying this: zerg is much stronger then you guys expect and I'm 100% sure that in a few months every tourney will be dominated by zerg. Their macro-mechanic is just too powerfull. The ultra is the strongest unit in the game. The broodlord is an insta win unit when the opponent doesn't scout them. The baneling destroys every bio army. The infestor is a great spellcaster imo. Roaches are decent. Hydra seems too slow. The mutalisks is dominating the air (yes, they beat vikings). The corruptor is pretty decent and when it's massed with broodlords, there is nothing you can do, unless you have a lot of vikings.
You can't win a macro game vs zerg and that shows that there is something wrong. I lost so many tvz's and those zergs always advice me to "not let zerg macro up". I win against 1600+toss and terran, but against 800+ zerg I have troubles. Zergs are starting to know their race and I'm sure that they will be almost unbeatable. Look at those korean zergs dominating (I know, only a few, but those few are imo unbeatable atm).
In sc1 zerg had to decide: drones or army. In sc2 zerg has EXTRA larvae so that decision is still there but not as hard as in sc1.
EVERY zerg I played agreed that I have to destroy them early game or I'm dead. Is that balanced guys? Please take a look at the terran side too. TvT and TvP are 10x easier for me then TvZ.
Pure bio:
You can advice the terran to spread out his army, but believe me, you can't spread out when speedlings are blocking your rines and while mutalisks are shooting. You can do drops, but against a good zerg you just can't. Overlords on key spots and there is no way that you can unload a medivac without 50 zerglings beneath it.
Pure mech:
You can go tank rine but when nicely surrounded there is no way you can stim your marines away from the banelings. Somethimes it works but if the zerg flanks, you're dead.
You can go thor tank helion, but ultras just destroy that so easy. You need a decent amount of thors and ultras >> thors.
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Dente, I believe the only reason it seems like zerg's macro mode is so much more powerful is because most terrans do not play such a heavily macro style. True zerg can expand more easily, but most terrans dont expand as much as they could. The mule almost allows for terran to make up for the fact that they need so many production buildings. If the only way for terran to win a game was to take five bases, I'm sure you would see that macro kind of play style more and it would be just as frightening as a zerg doing the same thing.
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Personally I'd just like the option to drop for medivacs become a fairly expensive and lengthy upgrade, and have Vikings be range 5 or 6 with the range-upagrde available at Fusion core for a good amount of money and time. The problem is that there's just no choosing involved in Terran atm, a Starport with reactor (you can swap to another tech lab if specifically needed) basically gives you late game counters to a ton of stuff with no upgrading, choosing or whatever involved. The fact that most terran would still build Vikings and Medivacs every game if they didnt have the land/drop ability is quite telling.
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My suggestion to balance Z:
1.Return of Lurker:: When T has Marauder and P Immotals, Z should get back Lurkers at least because these units are hard counter to Roach. In return, borrowed movement of Roach is removed. (its not used that often anyway as Blizzard expected)
2.make hydra t1 unit again: Its ridiculous that z has only queen to defend against air in early game. Also hydra could give more variable tactical possibility in early game.
3.Minimize the movement speed difference on- and off creep: Everybody thinks its not that crucial since z has creep tumor, but I think this is what makes z extremly vulnerable in whole game. e.g.; Look at Z vs T mech in scbw. Then tell me that with creep tumor z can deal with mmm / mech much better. (its not, Even without speed nerf z had more than enough trouble to deal with it.)
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On September 26 2010 01:44 deViation- wrote:
We should just basicly ask IdrA what he thinks would be good changes instead of asking him to destroy every change blizzard makes.
I love IdrA, but when will we see him satisfied with the state of the game? (perhaps when he wins all the time...)
Why is only IdrA qualified to answer that? Just use some common sense and analyze the problem!
Problem: Zerg are having trouble.
Question: Why?
a. Terrans use very early harrassment [Reaper or Hellion] to kill probes and stifle the economy and building enough defensive forces as a Zerg will do the same thing. Zerglings are LIGHT and both harrassing units have bonus damage vs. light.
b. Protoss can mass units very fast once they get the Warp Gate research done and since their units are tougher than Zerglings individually AND due to the "terrain changing bonus" of Forcefield they can chew up a Zerg defensive force in smaller pieces and survive.
c. Protoss can wall-in a Zerg with just one Probe and achieve and unfair advantage.
Question: How can you fix this?
a. The starting time for the harrassment needs to be pushed back.
b. The starting time for the massing of troops needs to be pushed back.
Question: How can you achieve these?
a1. Increase the build times for the units.
Question: Any problems with this solution?
Answer: Yes, an increased build time will make units less desirable in the later game and might even be compensated by just building one more production facility early on. The efficiency of the Reaper isnt really increased by massing a ton more, but rather by excellent micro and a few extra seconds will not make it that much worse.
a2. Make maps bigger so that scouting and ground rush distance [including the Reaper!] is far longer.
Question: Any problems with this solution?
Answer: Problem 1: Yes, it involves getting rid of action-maps like the tiny Steppes of War and only action games are good for eSports, even though Starcraft is a strategy game. [sarcastic version of "Blizzard tries to change the gametype of Starcraft from RTS to RTA in the hopes of making it more fun for casuals and thus selling to a wider audience. Its the same logic as for the movies: more / bigger explosions = more viewers"] Blizzard hasnt got a good reputation when it comes to making maps and they seem to be unwilling to admit that just yet or else they would have added a map or two with patch 1.1.
Problem 2: Todays kids - you know the ones with the attention span of a goldfish - cant be bothered to play a looong game. They get bored too easily.
b. Increase the Warp Gate research time.
Question: Any problems with this solution?
Answer: Players need to adjust their base building to be able to deal with Zerg / Terrans knocking on their door, but the map size increase will mitigate this.
c. Move the Overlord ability to dump creep to Tier 1 [right from the start].
Question: Any problems with this solution?
Answer: None that I can see. "Creeping up" an opponents expansion is not really viable because Terran and Protoss can easily shoot it down, so it is only useful in a defensive way to prevent pylons from being placed or to be able to place an early Spine Crawler near a cliff or ramp to provide additional defenses against cliffjumping Reapers or Hellions rushing up the ramp.
So you see, it isnt that hard to analyze the problem and come to a conclusion as to what needs to be done. It doesnt even involve fiddling around with the stats of the units, which is terribly hard to do and keep the balance between fighting units. Feel free to question my reasoning and improve upon the suggested solutions. Even I am not perfect in my thought process and could have overlooked something.
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On September 26 2010 08:37 Dente wrote:
I keep on saying this: zerg is much stronger then you guys expect and I'm 100% sure that in a few months every tourney will be dominated by zerg. Their macro-mechanic is just too powerfull. The ultra is the strongest unit in the game. The broodlord is an insta win unit when the opponent doesn't scout them. The baneling destroys every bio army. The infestor is a great spellcaster imo. Roaches are decent. Hydra seems too slow. The mutalisks is dominating the air (yes, they beat vikings). The corruptor is pretty decent and when it's massed with broodlords, there is nothing you can do, unless you have a lot of vikings.
You can't win a macro game vs zerg and that shows that there is something wrong. I lost so many tvz's and those zergs always advice me to "not let zerg macro up". I win against 1600+toss and terran, but against 800+ zerg I have troubles. Zergs are starting to know their race and I'm sure that they will be almost unbeatable. Look at those korean zergs dominating (I know, only a few, but those few are imo unbeatable atm).
In sc1 zerg had to decide: drones or army. In sc2 zerg has EXTRA larvae so that decision is still there but not as hard as in sc1.
EVERY zerg I played agreed that I have to destroy them early game or I'm dead. Is that balanced guys? Please take a look at the terran side too. TvT and TvP are 10x easier for me then TvZ.
Pure bio:
You can advice the terran to spread out his army, but believe me, you can't spread out when speedlings are blocking your rines and while mutalisks are shooting. You can do drops, but against a good zerg you just can't. Overlords on key spots and there is no way that you can unload a medivac without 50 zerglings beneath it.
Pure mech:
You can go tank rine but when nicely surrounded there is no way you can stim your marines away from the banelings. Somethimes it works but if the zerg flanks, you're dead.
You can go thor tank helion, but ultras just destroy that so easy. You need a decent amount of thors and ultras >> thors.
I think you really have to give us more information where you play in the league in order for us to gauge how reliable your information is. Please don't take it as an offense, but but the fact that you seem to let zerg macro up seems to indicate that you may be in the lower tiers, and thus your experience is very different to everyone elses and might not be applicable as a general statement.
The problem isn't the zerg's macro play: the problem is that zerg units die like... uh, domino bricks once you start hitting on them. As a protoss player, I can outmicro a zerg player's mutabox with my phoenix, and kill off all of their mutas and keep most of my phoenix alive. Or alternatively, I can toss in a couple of colossi into my ground army and those hydras fry to death just as fast as it takes to do a boil of instant noodles.
If you watch pro games, this issue will become very apparent. In game between IdrA and WhiteRa, IdrA had rached his 200 supply and had a rediculous roach/hydra army with some mutas. Even though WhiteRa lost some of his colossi because he was uncareful and left them unguarded, he still killed off all of IdrA's army, even though it looked like IdrA was going to win for a long time. Or look at the game where Fruitseller was massing up queens, and forced his protoss opponent on one base. Despite that he had like 4 bases and the protoss player one, a couple of colossi made such a huge difference in the game that the game turned instantly and Fruitseller lost.
This is the thing most zerg players feel frustrated over. Their macro play is supposed to make up for the fact that their units die faster than terran and protoss, but ultimately it makes no difference, especially if you just lost all of your army in one big battle. There is no way you are going to be able to truly macro up another army quick enough in order to save your bases at that point, and I've had a lot of games like that myself.
True now, I speak from a protoss perspective and my examples include protoss opponents, but even a very large bioball will be able to perform similar against zerg.
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EPT
