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IdrA Speaks On: Patch 1.1 - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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Bull-Demon
Profile Joined January 2003
United States582 Posts
September 24 2010 02:31 GMT
#61
how did Z scout in BW?


Early game scouting wasn't nearly as critical with larger maps and faster/better static defense. Variety of terran openings are much, much larger in SC2 compared to BW.
~_~
misaTO
Profile Joined September 2010
Argentina204 Posts
September 24 2010 02:31 GMT
#62
On September 24 2010 10:39 Deltawolf wrote:
I feel like that was a really well written article. Idra is definitely being reasonable and is really suggesting that just having the ability to SCOUT a terran player would make a world of difference. .


this
OHSHITOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT
Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
September 24 2010 02:32 GMT
#63
Blizzard should ask pro players for their opinions on balance...
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
Thurokiir
Profile Joined June 2010
United States779 Posts
September 24 2010 02:33 GMT
#64
I agree with the analysis. Zerg are incredibly one dimensional, you do x, well then they HAVE to do y. Nothing has changed and the only thing is that now as a protoss player I am SLIGHTLY more vulnerable to early zergling aggression but even that is tempered by early 12 forge 14 nex builds that leave zerg without much to do except tech and expand.

Zerg either need another unit to add diversity in the anti armored section early game. *roach just doesn't cut it*

The zerg units work as a swarm but you can never get enough to constitute a swarm.

My choices are always pretty binary against zerg, Get HT's or get colossus, or if its late game, get both and force the zerg into two tech trees one with no benefit to itself besides an attempt to hard counter and thats it.

Zerg are just simply missing their swarm element. Their ability to snap back and punish is there, but their ability to shove units into a blender with nary a worry is missing and therein there is a big weakness.
Tahts halo dont worry
Sqq
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway2023 Posts
September 24 2010 02:34 GMT
#65
Very good read, enjoyed it alot. A articulate and informative post on his views. Thumbs up.
Dead girls don't say no.
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
September 24 2010 02:36 GMT
#66
On September 24 2010 11:20 Xunaka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2010 10:43 De4ngus wrote:
I don't get why Blizzard doesn't realize the problem here is with Zerg. Patching Terran and Protoss doesn't do anything useful. Now tanks can't even be used TvP.



Please continue to have that mentality, as a Protoss player I would greatly appreciate if everyone thought tanks cannot be used in TvP. The reality is they are just as strong as they were pre patch 1.1 but that isn't even the point of what Idra is saying.

I think a lot of the problems just stem from the way Zerg units are compared to either Protoss or Terran. Zerg units are just very one dimensional and are designed in a very gimmicky sense.

Zerglings : Weak Melee unit very easily massable but later in game you just lose them in masses
The gimmick is the massing of the unit

Roaches : Moderatly strong Melee/Range unit I label it as such because of their very weak range
Gimmick is that you need speed to prevent them from being annihilated by kiting, Burrow Micro/movement make them a decent gimmick

Banelings: Total gimmick unit.. you suicide them at units I don't think this needs explanation

Hydralisk: Comes to be one of the most solid units that you will find in the Zerg army, it is well rounded and diverse however its gimmick is that you suffer from Damage/vs survivability they are simply weak I believe the best term to describe them is Glass Cannon

Mutalisk: Another well rounded solid unit.. (seems to be the common ground for zerg tier 2) Solid damage for cost ratio, I don't personally find these to be gimmicky

Infestor : Is medium to average as a caster, I think in comparrison to Ravens and Templar its a bit weak, infested Terran is gimicky. Fungal growth is decent to good, however it is nowhere near as useful as Storm/HSM/PDD


Corruptor: Gimmicky anti air unit, corruption spell is a bit of a gimmick most of the time the 10% wont make a difference because of how many you have. (No way to attack ground units like Vikings/Phoenix) (Massive oversight in my opinion)

Ultralisk: Strong tanking melee unit, Gimmick is that its a ground only attack tier 3 unit. That suffers from serious path finding issues. I think the Ultra could be an outstanding unit if I didn't lose them to the games AI sending them to their death or getting stuck on random terrain/units

While I like the idea of Micro.. I shouldn't have to Micro a unit just to make up for AI

Broodlord: Very strong siege unit, attacks ground only can severely screw with unit targeting against a non micro opponent. Once again i feel as though this unit is limited by its anti ground only where as BC and Carrier both have Anti air/ground capability.


I'm fully aware that each race his its own gimmick unit though Terran seems to have the most well rounded out of them all. the simple fact is that zerg suffers from a one dimensional creation of almost every unit.. they all serve only one role and that one role alone where as the racial counterparts are far less one dimensional units.




No tanks are not just as strong as pre patch. Now protoss has 2 ground units that kick tank ass all over. Immortal and now Zealot. Blizzard is slowly screwing terran by making them go bio. I will probably be switching too protoss from terran, even if terran never get another nerf. I just cant stand having to make infantry against toss.

I think the problem with most balance issues is because zerg needs something. What that is i dont know, i will let better players that dont have bias figure that out. Even though im not an Idra fan, I do trust his judgement on matters when he isnt ranting.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
ooni
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia1498 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 02:39:01
September 24 2010 02:38 GMT
#67
On September 24 2010 11:32 Affluenza wrote:
Blizzard should ask pro random players for their opinions on balance...

Fixed

However, there is no 'great' random player right now. dayvie is the closest they got.
Hi!
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
September 24 2010 02:40 GMT
#68
On September 24 2010 11:16 TheToast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2010 10:59 figq wrote:
Idra is being quite fair about the Protoss situation as well, which doesn't look good too, in early game. Sure, they survive, but if a race is supposed to cannon rush to survive..
Cannon rushing isn't necessary for protoss, a lot of gold and plat players are doing it just because it's easy wins. While it does seem a bit overpowered, lets face it a player who does good scouting will beat a cannon rushing player any day.
He only means the early blocking tactics with cannons, not an all-in completely dedicated build.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Ronald_McD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada807 Posts
September 24 2010 02:41 GMT
#69
Gotta say I agree

Blizzard needs to stop trying to find little setbacks they can create for Terran and Protoss, and give Zerg something to work with. It all stems from the lack of unit diversity, and the Hydralisk not being a very viable unit. A simple speed upgrade and/or undo-ing the stupid HP nerf on Hydras back in beta would work wonders. Otherwise they're just going to keep tweaking irrelevant aspects of the game once every couple months while we wait for Heart of the Swarm so they can finally give Zerg more units to work with.
FUCKING GAY LAGS
Xunaka
Profile Joined April 2010
United States43 Posts
September 24 2010 02:41 GMT
#70
On September 24 2010 10:43 De4ngus wrote:

No tanks are not just as strong as pre patch. Now protoss has 2 ground units that kick tank ass all over. Immortal and now Zealot. Blizzard is slowly screwing terran by making them go bio. I will probably be switching too protoss from terran, even if terran never get another nerf. I just cant stand having to make infantry against toss.

I think the problem with most balance issues is because zerg needs something. What that is i dont know, i will let better players that dont have bias figure that out. Even though im not an Idra fan, I do trust his judgement on matters when he isnt ranting.



Tanks do the same damage to immortals as they did pre patch, and immortals are hardly the answer to a tank line.,Zealots will still die to tanks if you have a decent number of them I can't even begin to fathom how you think tanks suck vs toss now. Simply put don't just make tanks?
vindKtiv
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States215 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 02:44:22
September 24 2010 02:43 GMT
#71
I enjoy seeing what IdrA said and agree. I think more pro players who have an interest in the balance of StarCraft 2 should actively make their opinions known like IdrA. Blizzard is not going to know how to balance the game if all the pros just secretly fume. There is a time for getting your word out, and it is, quite frankly, now. If enough of a stink is made, Blizzard will be unable to do anything but listen.
Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 02:45:20
September 24 2010 02:44 GMT
#72
Kind of true, the tvz problems aren't too much with tanks, it's early game and lack of zerg scouting. TvP as said will be more T>P early (zlot nerf) and P>T late (tank nerf) which is exactly not what is needed for that mu really.
ESV Mapmaking!
Sc1pio
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States823 Posts
September 24 2010 02:46 GMT
#73
I main T (~1k pts Diamond) and play a little Z on the side. I wholeheartedly agree with IdrA. Terran has an extremely wide variety of openings, and nerfing them piecemeal won't help the game. Zerg needs improved scouting early game.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few. " -Shunro Suzuki | fortuna fortes adiuvat
Icemind
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany570 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 03:54:13
September 24 2010 02:50 GMT
#74
I kinda have to agree with Idra although i think that the patch does help somewhat in the TvZ matchup even at the current state. That said, it does not fix it and neither am i shure if it was really the right approach even though iam not really able to make any sensible better suggestions.
What i completely agree on is the part about TvP. The patch definitely changed the matchup in a negative way. Tanks which were already situatonal (although not bad) because of the generally big size of protoss units are now taken out by zealots alone already with relative ease especially if they have charge. Also the 20% damage nerf to battlecruisers makes it a lot more difficult to punish a late game templar supported army for going too heavy on templar and zealots and too light on anti-air, where banshees are obviously not an option (thanks to templars whos abilitys both work wonders against them)

Even though i dont like Idra too much considering BM and (in my opinion) a kinda overly mechanical playstyle i have to admit that in general the analysis he gives in interviews is pretty much always right on the spot.
acie
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States247 Posts
September 24 2010 02:51 GMT
#75
When the beta first came out I was under the impression that infestors could use their abilities while burrowed but i was disappointed when i tried them, so I didn't want to play zerg anymore. I think they should at least be able to cast neural parasite while burrowed, I think it would be pretty strong without being too imba
Looky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1608 Posts
September 24 2010 02:52 GMT
#76
those fake patches look like it will work. add cooldown on chrono and mules. lol
Zero RDS
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada104 Posts
September 24 2010 02:54 GMT
#77
what if zerg had an option to upgrade a lair or hatchery to attack air units and to see cloaked units? (closs also) like the counter part to the terran PF ? but to get this up grade the queen could not spawn extra larva on it? Just a thought?
"Do A Barrel Roll"
Fa1nT
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3423 Posts
September 24 2010 02:54 GMT
#78
I think a lot of the Z early game problems are due to the maps. SC2 maps are SMALL compared to some brood war maps. So small that they ruin ladder a lot by promoting early game rushes. I am not saying these are not viable strats, but TOO many people are relying on early aggression to win matches, when they should be practicing mid-late game macro and micro >>..
Catch
Profile Joined September 2010
United States616 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-24 22:49:12
September 24 2010 02:55 GMT
#79
Edit Out~
Victory Loves Preparation
Keitzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2509 Posts
September 24 2010 02:56 GMT
#80
On September 24 2010 11:32 Affluenza wrote:
Blizzard should ask pro players for their opinions on balance...


they dont ask..

they pool data from pros... from tourney results.. from ladder stats... and from threads on TL / bnet / etc
I'm like badass squared | KeitZer.489
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