EPTFaster OL base speed, or cheaper upgrade isn't too much to try, is it?
IdrA Speaks On: Patch 1.1 - Page 6
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leve15
United States301 Posts
Faster OL base speed, or cheaper upgrade isn't too much to try, is it? | ||
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
I'm curious how to fix the early game issues that Zerg has, however. I suppose it's to give them some sort of early pressure/threat that they can use to constrict the seemingly endless openings T can use. That way some of the more aggressively teching T builds can be punished, but that does little to stop the potency of bio both early and late game. I have no answers, only thoughts and an open mind. I'm definitely hungry for more top-end discussion about the issue at a level such as IdrA's post. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:33 holyhalo5 wrote: sorry, i have to ask. how does this patch help protoss late-game against terran? tank nerf + battlecruiser nerf. both very viable late-game paths to take in TvP. i preferred battlecruisers, personally... but im almost scared to try them now lol. there really was no easy way for the toss to kill the BC's, especially when backed up by a solid bio blob. it gave your blob staying power, a mobile pivot point. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:44 leve15 wrote: That fake patch that circulated last week really put a damper on the reception of actual 1.1. Faster OL base speed, or cheaper upgrade isn't too much to try, is it? OL speed was 50/50 for much of beta 'til Blizzard said "we don't want upgrades to be a no-brainer" and then made Concussive Grenades 50/50 :facepalm: | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:37 TheWarbler wrote: Are you fucking stupid? Zerg is the most under powerd race in the game. Id be surprised if you play zerg and your saying this. You are some probley lonley Platnium level protoss who has no skill what so ever and only knows how to 4gate for a chance to win. When your not doing that your makeing meaning less posts on here. Aside from my anger being tooken out on him, I agree with Idra that this was not enough. I personally think the zerg macro mechanics need some sort of buff. Im not saying GIVE ZERG A WHOLE NEW MACRO MECHANIC. But The fact that a protoss can get a forge early wallmin with 2 pylons and a cannon get a stargate before i can get hydras and win cause Zerg has horrible Tier AA is stupid. No im not saying zerg is underpowered and give us the lurker or anything retarded like that. Im just saying I agree and this was not enough. User was temp banned for this post. I play Zerg and I can confidently say you are way off man. You'r thinking is in another universe if you think Zerg macro is the problem. Zerg is the easiest race to macro in my opinion with ONE unit producing structure, and obviously this goes for our supply as well, it's all done at one building. I do agree Zerg has issues in early game but macro is definitely not an issue... | ||
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MasterAsia
United States170 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:43 theqat wrote: I don't think that's necessarily true. I see what you're saying--Terran is designed to be highly flexible while having a hard counter for every unit/strat in the game, but it is possible to take some of those options away from them without turning the game into something that isn't Starcraft. I guess the question becomes where you draw the line between "nerfing" and "changing core game concepts." Nerfing isn't limited to units; you can nerf a strategy or nerf Tech Lab versatility or nerf Terran's resistance to losing workers by adding a cooldown to MULEs. The game isn't a lost cause. Well, to make myself clear: Terran has too much potential. The good players can make this race better and better according its design. Zerg has too much limitation. Each new build order and timing push will enhance Terran a lot, while a new build order like getting 10 roaches 15 seconds earlier doesn't make much contribution to Zerg (But getting 10 marauders 15 seconds earlier will help Terran to kill a Zerg. That's the difference). Also the fact that there is so few good Zerg players is a problem. I didn't see zerg tactics improve during the past 3 weeks (I am watching a good amount of replays from everywhere). As myself, I did not come up with anything new recently as well. I guess only if we have 50 of good zergs here we can come up with something, if there is some. | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
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Node
United States2159 Posts
That being said, as much as I hate to admit it, he's pretty much right on every count. The early and midgame Terran has so much potential for versatility that Zerg has to either act in a reactive fashion or pray to the StarCraft gods that Terran didn't go for the fast banshee, or the thor+scv+marine push, or <insert response to your build of choice here>. It feels like there is no "safe and stable" build for Zerg to use anymore, while pretty much anything that Terran can do will at least survive. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
Furthermore, if the harass doesn't come, ex. fast tech lab into marauders, Terran is so far ahead econ with the zerg not droning, that the normal timing push runs you over just as well, or the switch to banshee is so powerful because you commit to this mass ling/spine/queen defense. The delayed harass with numbers is often more effective because the zerg has tried to go back to droning. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:54 MasterAsia wrote: Well, to make myself clear: Terran has too much potential. The good players can make this race better and better according its design. Zerg has too much limitation. Each new build order and timing push will enhance Terran a lot, while a new build order like getting 10 roaches 15 seconds earlier doesn't make much contribution to Zerg (But getting 10 marauders 15 seconds earlier will help Terran to kill a Zerg. That's the difference). Also there is so few good Zerg players is a problem. I didn't see zerg tactics improve during the past 3 weeks (I am watching a good amount of replays from everywhere). As myself, I did not come up with anything new recently as well. I guess only if we have 50 of good zergs here we can come up with something, if there is some. Yeah, I understand your point. I'm saying Terran's potential can definitely be nerfed by playing with numbers if it does come down to that. For example, at the very least you can make their options more expensive so that they can only reasonably use a limited number in a given game. I do hope more players will take up Zerg in the near future. I recently started playing them full time to show support and help myself understand the whole picture. | ||
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smegged
Australia213 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:54 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: To be honest, I don't think IdrA (and many Zerg players for that matter) will be satisfied until all races have equal footing at all times; early game, mid game, and late game. You could make it easy for Zerg to scout early and they would still mention imbalance. The fact is, Starcraft has NEVER BEEN and probably never WILL BE balanced during all stages of a match. Even Broodwar had disparities during different times of the game. I would argue that the main reason is because of the differing mechanics of unit production and building types. These differing styles of unit production reach their maximum potential at different times. Zerg's production style has the greatest advantage the further a game proceeds. If you nerf the other races' early game abilities, then Zerg's late game production ability also need to be reduced. I think you are making too many assumptions. A lot of zerg players would be very happy if they had a unit that forced their opponent to specifically counter it or risk losing in the early to mid game. Something to take the initiative away from their opponent before ultras/brood lords. | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
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Justifer
107 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:46 theqat wrote: OL speed was 50/50 for much of beta 'til Blizzard said "we don't want upgrades to be a no-brainer" and then made Concussive Grenades 50/50 :facepalm: Concussive went form free to 50/50. Not 100/100->50/50 like you imply. Using your analogy the costs were increased exactly the same... except concussive also gained a time cost it didn't have before. | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
On September 24 2010 13:01 oxxo wrote: Concussive went form free to 50/50. Not 100/100->50/50 like you imply. Using your analogy the costs were increased exactly the same... except concussive also gained a time cost it didn't have before. It's nonetheless a no-brainer, which is exactly what Blizzard said they were trying to avoid. There's no Terran strat that involves getting Marauders but not getting Concussive because that 50/50 is going into something else. (I wasn't making an analogy, just pointing out Blizzard's apparent inability to keep one hand appraised of what the other hand is doing.) | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On September 24 2010 11:13 teamsolid wrote: Prime example of someone who hasn't read the article (or has poor reading comprehension) but feels like putting out his rant anyways. Can't read huh? I am simply making a point yes I read the article. Idra says that if this change was done a while ago it would have made more of a difference. Then I say that blizzard should make the changes slowly. Say blizzard made this 1.1 patch the second day of release but nothing changed so there like ok lets add another 5 sec and another and another. Now this random zerg mastermind that was going to break the cycle and figure how to open safely vs reapers and still be prepared for other options won't ever come. Does such a style exsist with the pre 1.1 stats? maybe.. maybe not. Does such a style exsist now? Maybe, maybe not. Would it have been made clearer that read the article if I said I disagree with the need to make these changes a month ago. Although that should of been perfectly clear. | ||
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Oleksandr
United States227 Posts
On September 24 2010 11:56 Keitzer wrote: they dont ask.. they pool data from pros... from tourney results.. from ladder stats... and from threads on TL / bnet / etc That is not true. A blue post specifically said that they ignore tournament results and they don't take any ideas from Zerg getting bashed in GSL. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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DarkspearTribe
568 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:28 MegaBUD wrote: Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff... User was warned for this post User was temp banned for this post. should have been permanently banned. | ||
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The Icon
Canada111 Posts
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