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On September 24 2010 13:09 Chairman Ray wrote:
What Idra says about the zerg early game is true, especially in ZvT, but in ZvP, he isn't putting the mid game into consideration. As a Protoss player, I know that if I don't damage Zerg's economy in the early game, it means that hard countering the Zerg's army is at most a fair fight since the Zerg just has so much more stuff and can reinforce so much faster. I feel that having the option of cannon rushing the zerg expansion or puttin on zealot pressure is what gives Protoss the ability to damage the zerg economy. If only one of these were viable, then Zerg can blindly defend against it easily come out ahead in the mid game.
That's the thing though. It's really really hard to get to late mid game as zerg. Most terran and protoss know that they can't let zerg get to late game with ultras and broodlords. The problem is that it is simply too hard to get to late game. The terran can decide, hey I can 5 rax reaper and this game will never get to late game. Or protoss can 2 gate or 4 gate all in.
My opinion is that they should make zerg stronger early game, allowing them to survive early attacks easier, and then make broodlords and ultras slightly weaker, so that it's not extremely hard for protoss and terran to fend it off.
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On September 24 2010 12:54 Node wrote:
I dislike how IdrA says something, anything, and the community immediately jumps on it as gospel. Okay, that's a bit hyperbolic, but at the very least, it's worrying how many people seem to argue IdrA's opinions instead of their own.
That being said, as much as I hate to admit it, he's pretty much right on every count. The early and midgame Terran has so much potential for versatility that Zerg has to either act in a reactive fashion or pray to the StarCraft gods that Terran didn't go for the fast banshee, or the thor+scv+marine push, or <insert response to your build of choice here>. It feels like there is no "safe and stable" build for Zerg to use anymore, while pretty much anything that Terran can do will at least survive.
Well I understand your concern regarding IdrA, yet I don't think it's true.
I think it's more that we, the community, understand that pros generally understand the game very very well. I think most of us are also aware that pros can be just as likely to be biased as anyone, or just simply wrong. IdrA is a vocal voice in the pro scene and has developed (and earned, imo) a reputation of knowing what he is talking about, and being pretty accurate.
The great thing about nerds is that most are pretty skeptical. So even if a famous person within the community says some dogma, most people will question it and consider it independently before supporting or refuting the argument.
On another note, I agree that Bliz's current priority should be to balance this game. Yet, from their perspective, this is very difficult and potentially hazardous. Bliz doesn't want to patch the game in a certain way only to change it back, realizing later that is was a mistake. I think this is the primary reason for such extended delays: Bliz must appear competent and CAPABLE of balancing such a game.
Yet as a cautionary note to Bliz itself, the game is less fun to play or to watch if it is unbalanced.
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I think Blizz is trying the best they can to balance the game, but I can see why it's hard for them. Nobody can 100% pinpoint what exactly makes zerg UP, they are trying to slowly change the numbers in hopes to fix the problem.
At least I assume no one has stated the "clear" reason zerg is UP, and that's probably because it is not a simple fix that can just be figured out by a couple clicks of a calculator.
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On September 24 2010 13:01 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 12:46 theqat wrote:On September 24 2010 12:44 leve15 wrote:
That fake patch that circulated last week really put a damper on the reception of actual 1.1.
Faster OL base speed, or cheaper upgrade isn't too much to try, is it? OL speed was 50/50 for much of beta 'til Blizzard said "we don't want upgrades to be a no-brainer" and then made Concussive Grenades 50/50 :facepalm: Concussive went form free to 50/50. Not 100/100->50/50 like you imply. Using your analogy the costs were increased exactly the same... except concussive also gained a time cost it didn't have before.
On my slow phone so if this was answered my b
ad.
I think his inrtention was to point out overlord speed is a must, and yet they made shells 50/50 which is also a must
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I think we should discuess rather than raging and getting banned in the proces.
I think in TvP the roles are reveresed. Terran can maco and harrass his heart out while zerg just turtles up. It needs to change. If a zerg can macro with 2+ more base's than the terran he can usually pull off a win but it shouldn't be as difficult as it is now. I think if they removed nitro packs out of the game, Zerg would be a lot better off. They are to damn cheap now.
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Whilst I think IdrA is a great player and I was certainly cheering for him all the way in GSL, I don't think his analysis is very logical or rational. He says that these balance changes would have been justified a month ago, back when these imbalances were prominent. But in the same paragraph, he also admits that these "issues" have now been analysed and successfully countered by the players, and as such - are no longer imbalanced.
To me, the entire analysis comes across as, "X is too strong, patch it now, not in a month after I've already figured out how to beat it."
We've seen so many developments in the TvZ matchup over the last few months, and with considerably few changes to Factory units (Tank HP, Hellion Range, Thor size) since mid-beta, Mech went from "useless" to "viable" and somewhat "mainstream" over the course of 7 weeks.
This sort of adaptation & evolution is really shining with Terran, but I'm not seeing much of it from Zerg or Protoss. Articles like this one give me the impression that some players would rather not deal with that evolution, instead preferring a patch to keep the game confined to a small cardboard box.
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I really don't understand how one of the best sc2 zerg players in the world fails to appreciate how a whole shot difference from tanks effects gameplay. Are zergs suffering from 1 control group syndrome? I am by no means a great zerg player, but i have already been in games where 1-2 tanks barely scratched me in the midgame push. Now late game 200/200 armies i can understand that the tank nerf is barely felt, but it seems like zergs had trouble with that midgame push.
His other points seem right now point though, from a random players POV.
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I can't wait for that one guy to come along and revolutionize how you play Zerg. Terran is my strongest race and I find the tank nerf to be quite significant vs hydralisks. Hydralisks are very effective vs bio balls and not nearly as destroyed by tanks anymore. i think Idra should give them a try. Perhaps using overlords to boost there mobility. They are super fast ON creep...
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On September 24 2010 13:13 OreoBoi wrote:
That's the thing though. It's really really hard to get to late mid game as zerg. Most terran and protoss know that they can't let zerg get to late game with ultras and broodlords. The problem is that it is simply too hard to get to late game. The terran can decide, hey I can 5 rax reaper and this game will never get to late game. Or protoss can 2 gate or 4 gate all in.
My opinion is that they should make zerg stronger early game, allowing them to survive early attacks easier, and then make broodlords and ultras slightly weaker, so that it's not extremely hard for protoss and terran to fend it off.
Ultras are pretty strong but I dont think broodlords need a nerf. Ultras dont need one either. I agree that changes could be made to the zerg early game, but I dont think its as bad as alot of players say. Its not "Terran can just go reapers and end the game right there" its more like "terran can make reapers and if he uses them smart, keeps them alive, and applies pressure where he can, it will force the Zerg to react. How the zerg player reacts will determine the flow of the game". A zerg player at my level will probably predict that I will attack with Marine/Maruader about 90 seconds after I get 6ish reapers. They all have different ways of responding to this, but I can't remember the last game I flat out beat a Zerg with the first Marine/Marauder push. I think if more zerg players utilized Fungal Growth, there would be alot more happy zerg players. This is from my point of view. I make reapers against zerg every game. I don't win every game. In fact, i'm probs about 50/50 TvZ, 50/50 TvP and 60/40 TvT. (I love TvT).
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I think his inrtention was to point out overlord speed is a must, and yet they made shells 50/50 which is also a must
Except shells isn't a must, its heavily optional and outright skipped in TvZ a lot of the time. Even when you do get it most players opt to delay it for several minutes, and thats when its 50/50.
If it were any higher, people would use it even less, making maruaders even more boring. Overspeed is a must, but the timing isn't so a high cost succeeds in achieving an interesting timing dynamic for it.
This sort of adaptation & evolution is really shining with Terran, but I'm not seeing much of it from Zerg or Protoss. Articles like this one give me the impression that some players would rather not deal with that evolution, instead preferring a patch to keep the game confined to a small cardboard box.
Look people are going to flame you for this because its really ignorant -_-. Terran evolved a lot because it was the most heavily buffed race in the beta, by an extremely large margin.
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On September 24 2010 13:24 Dox wrote:
Whilst I think IdrA is a great player and I was certainly cheering for him all the way in GSL, I don't think his analysis is very logical or rational. He says that these balance changes would have been justified a month ago, back when these imbalances were prominent. But in the same paragraph, he also admits that these "issues" have now been analysed and successfully countered by the players, and as such - are no longer imbalanced.
To me, the entire analysis comes across as, "X is too strong, patch it now, not in a month after I've already figured out how to beat it."
We've seen so many developments in the TvZ matchup over the last few months, and with considerably few changes to Factory units (Tank HP, Hellion Range, Thor size) since mid-beta, Mech went from "useless" to "viable" and somewhat "mainstream" over the course of 7 weeks.
This sort of adaptation & evolution is really shining with Terran, but I'm not seeing much of it from Zerg or Protoss. Articles like this one give me the impression that some players would rather not deal with that evolution, instead preferring a patch to keep the game confined to a small cardboard box.
What he's saying is that Zerg strats might have been more able to evolve had those changes been left in when they were originally implemented (near the end of beta or at the time of Situation Report 1) because it would have impacted strategies that were popular at that time, giving Zerg players some breathing room.
Instead Zerg had to continue to account for the possibility of 5rax Reaper/highly effective 2gate Zealot while Terran and Protoss were coming up with even more effective strategies, exposing new imbalances while accounting for the known upcoming patch changes. (Sticky situation because I think Blizzard has to let the public know what the patch changes will be if they're going to patch during tournaments, but it created a bad situation for Zerg on this occasion.)
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@techno, progamers try everything you just said 100000 times a day. We just don't see it because they wouldn't use a unit in a game that doesn't work. The hydra is a very situational unit. From what I've seen, none of those situations are in high level ZvT. Does the tank nerf help? Yes. Does that make the hydra viable? Not really. Because the hydra was also terrible vs so many other unit mixes besides tanks
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mutaling is much more potent vs protoss I think. The lack of zealots makes them super buff
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On September 24 2010 13:32 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
I think his inrtention was to point out overlord speed is a must, and yet they made shells 50/50 which is also a must
Except shells isn't a must, its heavily optional and outright skipped in TvZ a lot of the time. Even when you do get it most players opt to delay it for several minutes, and thats when its 50/50. If it were any higher, people would use it even less, making maruaders even more boring. Overspeed is a must, but the timing isn't so a high cost succeeds in achieving an interesting timing dynamic for it.
I can't agree with this. I can't think of a high-level game where a Terran invested heavily in Marauders but didn't get Conc (though if you can find any such games, I will concede the point). Just because Marauders are optional as a unit while Overlords aren't doesn't mean that Conc isn't a no-brainer if you are getting Marauders.
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the balance changes were not geared towards pro-level players but towards the plebian
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On September 24 2010 13:35 Beef Noodles wrote:
@techno, progamers try everything you just said 100000 times a day. We just don't see it because they wouldn't use a unit in a game that doesn't work. The hydra is a very situational unit. From what I've seen, none of those situations are in high level ZvT. Does the tank nerf help? Yes. Does that make the hydra viable? Not really. Because the hydra was also terrible vs so many other unit mixes besides tanks
Mostly Im talking to mid diamond players. My main point is that saying any unit is useless is a bad idea. Every unit has it's niche, you just need to find it. Some units niche's are bigger than others (yea, yea Marines/Marauders very effective all the time, but on the other hand, you have to make alot of baracks's to make a strong army with them, so if 1 building from the zerg negated 8 baracks's welll......). I think Hydras could be used as a defensive unit, protecting outlying hatcheries and falling back when necessary. Thats just one idea. Also, Hydras are effective vs Bio ball. If I'm going bio, and the opposing zerg is going hydra/roach/ling. I usually try to add another unit in for the hydras. Sometimes tanks, sometimes hellions. To deem a unit worthless is terrible.
I remember so many threads about how useless the phoenix is. It hasnt had any changes. I remember so many threads about how useless all the factory units were. The only changes theyve had since then are nerfs. My only beef with zerg imbalance preachers is calling a unit(s) useless.
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On September 24 2010 13:44 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:35 Beef Noodles wrote:
@techno, progamers try everything you just said 100000 times a day. We just don't see it because they wouldn't use a unit in a game that doesn't work. The hydra is a very situational unit. From what I've seen, none of those situations are in high level ZvT. Does the tank nerf help? Yes. Does that make the hydra viable? Not really. Because the hydra was also terrible vs so many other unit mixes besides tanks I remember so many threads about how useless the phoenix is. It hasnt had any changes. I remember so many threads about how useless all the factory units were. The only changes theyve had since then are nerfs. My only beef with zerg imbalance preachers is calling a unit(s) useless.
I'm not sure when these threads you're talking about took place, but the Phoenix, Tank, and Thor have all been buffed hugely since beta started
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I'm happy some high profile player is commenting about how the tank nerf really doesn't seem to do anything in ZvT. I said 'seems' because we won't really know until a few weeks from now, but on paper its very meh.
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wow. I actually agree with idra again. this is too many times lately, hes not being entertaining anymore =[
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All he seems concerned about is early game pressure by P and T against Z... If anything its now a huge advantage for Z early game as zealot pressure was the ONLY way to put early harass/pressure on Z early game, and now this patch has all but taken that away. I will agree with the fact that reaper build times does not do much, as T have so many weapons to take on zerg with.
Hydras and lings being able to take 3 tank shots instead of 2 now is huge. As for tier 2 zerg i would rather see them go mutas every time (unless needed to counter phoenix/voidray harass as necessary with hydras).
Only thing i will disagree with him on is the Z being able to transition into midgame comfortably against P. Roach/ling combos work exceptionally well against all gateway units, and any Z should feel comfortable enough with tier 1 units early game.
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I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me.
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EPT
