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Nice thoughts, I tend to agree with...all of it.
I'm not too familiar with TvP but from what I've heard it favors Terran early (Marauders with stim) and favors protoss late (storm, etc). It seems like nerfing Siege Tanks was maybe...not the answer in making this matchup more interesting. They could be a viable support unit late game, but being nerfed even more against zealots is...not the best way to implement that.
Similarly, reaper build time is...not really the problem zerg players are having. To me, the point in the game before your lair is up, after the opponent is walled, where your only scouting option is to sacrafice an overlord, is very problematic. You really have to have the right units to fight an early game push, and without a strong scouting option, this is difficult.
I am happy, however, about the way ultras work with buildings now (though a rare occasion I'll admit) and with the bunker build time nerf.
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On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT.
we're sorry zerg can just spam barracks early and often and make tons of units
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On September 24 2010 14:25 cykalu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines. Zerg has to decide whether to use the Larve for drones or units.. not both, unlike Terran. Terran can sit in his base and not move out, if a Zerg reacts inappropriately to it, they will be behind in economy as they could have used the larva for drones instead.
So Zerg cant split up usage of larve? The four larve that come off from a queen have to go to drones or army cant be mixed like two for drones and two for army or any other combination? And Zerg cant sit in base?
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I didn't have the time to really test the new patch yet but on the paper I felt a bit like Idra regarding TvP. Early bio all-ins are already such a pain in the ass if your name isn't Tester. If on top of that the zealot build time is increased I feel the early game will be a nightmare for P.
Pro will surely find a way to adapt (see PvZ in BW) but I'm more concerned about the casual gamer : At this point all the Terran has to do to be really threathening is making 5 rax MM and charging before P gets storm or collossus. To counter that P has to have perfect forcefield micro and perfect unit composition which imo requires a lot more skill.
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On September 24 2010 14:40 jere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:25 cykalu wrote:On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines. Zerg has to decide whether to use the Larve for drones or units.. not both, unlike Terran. Terran can sit in his base and not move out, if a Zerg reacts inappropriately to it, they will be behind in economy as they could have used the larva for drones instead. So Zerg cant split up usage of larve? The four larve that come off from a queen have to go to drones or army cant be mixed like two for drones and two for army or any other combination? And Zerg cant sit in base?
Well you must also consider zerg needs the occasional larva to go towards an OL which provides only 6 food. Beyond that, a larva oftentimes represents a building you are going to build (drone becomes a pool, spine, baneling nest, hatch etc). If you make these small incremental margins of units, you will get out macro'd plain and simple.
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Yep, little balance changes like cooldown x getting a y increase in time won't do it for Zerg.
There needs to be something bigger be done.
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On September 24 2010 14:40 jere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:25 cykalu wrote:On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines. Zerg has to decide whether to use the Larve for drones or units.. not both, unlike Terran. Terran can sit in his base and not move out, if a Zerg reacts inappropriately to it, they will be behind in economy as they could have used the larva for drones instead. So Zerg cant split up usage of larve? The four larve that come off from a queen have to go to drones or army cant be mixed like two for drones and two for army or any other combination? And Zerg cant sit in base?
Have you played zerg? It's not that simple. If you split larvae to units and workers early on then the zerg is going to be behind economically. Zerg doesn't have mules.
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Basically his complaints boil down to:
(1) Zerg should be able to fast expand reliably, and the game is imbalanced if they cant;
(2) The tank nerf is not a big deal even though (i) hydras take an entire hit more to kill on DIRECT DAMAGE (and two more from splash...); and (ii) lings and banelings take an entire hit more to kill from splash;
(3) Blizzard isn't patching fast enough because the nerfs they made are for (mostly) dated strategies.
First, as others have noted, it seems insane to think a fast expansion before pool should be reliable. Second, I think he is downplaying the tank nerf way too much. I have a feeling hydras will be put to use vs. T more and more even though he scoffs at the notion. Finally, his last point should be construed in favor of Blizzard's slow patches -- indeed, the fact that new strategies are constantly emerging and changing what is viewed as "imbalanced" suggests that Blizzard should be hesitant to make knee-jerk changes based on flavor of the month strategies. Doing so will make the game feel controlled by developers who are "funneling" players into artificially changing strategies as opposed to real inventiveness.
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There is no worse feeling that funneling your hydras into a constant stream of seige tank fire. They're way too slow and fragile to even consider against tanks. That nerf does not effect hydras in any major way.
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On September 24 2010 14:43 lambnrice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:40 jere wrote:On September 24 2010 14:25 cykalu wrote:On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines. Zerg has to decide whether to use the Larve for drones or units.. not both, unlike Terran. Terran can sit in his base and not move out, if a Zerg reacts inappropriately to it, they will be behind in economy as they could have used the larva for drones instead. So Zerg cant split up usage of larve? The four larve that come off from a queen have to go to drones or army cant be mixed like two for drones and two for army or any other combination? And Zerg cant sit in base? Well you must also consider zerg needs the occasional larva to go towards an OL which provides only 6 food. Beyond that, a larva oftentimes represents a building you are going to build (drone becomes a pool, spine, baneling nest, hatch etc). If you make these small incremental margins of units, you will get out macro'd plain and simple.
Thank you.
I did not understand the marginal difference there.
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On September 24 2010 14:51 starckr wrote:
Basically his complaints boil down to:
(1) Zerg should be able to fast expand reliably, and the game is imbalanced if they cant;
(2) The tank nerf is not a big deal even though (i) hydras take an entire hit more to kill on DIRECT DAMAGE (and two more from splash...); and (ii) lings and banelings take an entire hit more to kill from splash;
(3) Blizzard isn't patching fast enough because the nerfs they made are for (mostly) dated strategies.
First, as others have noted, it seems insane to think a fast expansion before pool should be reliable. Second, I think he is downplaying the tank nerf way too much. I have a feeling hydras will be put to use vs. T more and more even though he scoffs at the notion. Finally, his last point should be construed in favor of Blizzard's slow patches -- indeed, the fact that new strategies are constantly emerging and changing what is viewed as "imbalanced" suggests that Blizzard should be hesitant to make knee-jerk changes based on flavor of the month strategies. Doing so will make the game feel controlled by developers who are "funneling" players into artificially changing strategies as opposed to real inventiveness.
I been trying to re-implementing hydras back into my play as tank took the nerf... but the movement speed off creep really hampers hydra play against army with tanks when you could get better units, i do find lings a bit better against tanks as i can run next to T's army as they're a nice mineral sink.
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I don't know... This is all from his own personal perspective. His worst matchup, I think, is ZvP and his personal style is to macro up early. Any sort of early game rush nerf will be favorable in his eyes as that increases his chances of winning. And all his opinions reflect that.
But... who wouldn't react the same way to patch notes. Terrans rage. Protoss rejoice at an easier time with tanks. Zergs still pessimistic, but welcome the changes.
On September 24 2010 12:38 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I completely agree with idra from a terran perspective. While i do think it was a step in the right direction for TvZ it doesn't completely fix the problems. I especially agree that it was terrible for TvP, since T already had the advantage in the early game (which zealot nerf exacerbates) and P already had the advantage in the late game (which siege tank nerf exacerbates).
Haha, no. Terran players typically win all their games in the early game because they can. Why not. When all you're encouraged to do is ram your army into the Z/P at an early stage of the game you get no late game practice.
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I feel like the patch hasn't changed much seeing as the terran building animations are now correct compensating for part of the reaper nerf...
-signed a diamond terran hoping zergs become a threat again in Terrancraft 2; Wings of Raynor. Seriously in NA at least I feel like it didn't change much.
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On September 24 2010 11:20 Seam wrote:
Since TvP is actually fairly balanced, I think they honestly should just leave those two races alone, as to not risk causing more imbalances.
Just get Zerg to a similar level, and your'e good.
Thats just not true. TvP is not balanced. Its just like Idra said. In the earlygame Terran is much stronger, and in the lategame its Protoss.
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His bias is clearly shown in this article. I'll give him credit that certain needs were not addressed, but that doesn't mean that the patch did literally nothing.
He far too easily dismisses the nerfs to tanks and zealots by calling them "irrelevant" because there are other strategies. Of course it's relevant if there is one fewer strategy your opponent can use, and he ALMOST admits this when he says that zerg can find a way to play against photons.
Regardless, 24 hours isn't sufficient time to tell if the patch had any significant impacts or not. So take what he says with a grain of salt.
And as for his point about hydras - I've seen many, many videos of IdrA going hydras in ZvT, did he not get ANY hydras in ZvT at GSL?
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What I dont really understand is why people are acting as if the patch took forever to implement. It was actually a very fast balance patch in the world of RTS.
People must realize that we are no longer in beta. We all payed money for a game and for that reason, blizzard can't drastically change the game every week. They must now be more cautious with balance changes and slowly scale the game into balance. While it is frustrating that a lot of issues weren't addressed, we must realize that if blizzard scales too many things, it could completely shift the balance of the game. It is easier to slowly balance a game than to make huge swings.
Imagine if blizzard nerfed reaper, hellion, banshees, and marauders all in one patch. We really don't know what effect that would have. It could completely swing the balance into zergs favor and the MU could be uglier than it is now.
It is also sad to see players solely addressing races when it comes to balance when I believe that general map design plays a larger role in overall matchup balance. A lot of the racial imbalances are nullified on a map like crossfire due to the overall size of the map, resulting in longer base to base travel times.
For what it is worth, I am a zerg player.
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A lot of people are saying there is a mechanical flaw in zerg. And I too reiterate that message. Right now zerg acts as a reactionary race that has no early game choices. You know what? I'm okay with that personality of the zerg race IF they were actually given the right tools to react.
For example a 50/50 overlord speed upgrade at hatch tech might open up the game immensely. Suddenly terran would need creative ways to approach this. They know they're exposed in the early game to this OL getting a free look. They would be a bit more wary of moving out knowing that zerg knows what they have early on. Suddenly terran would be (I don't want to say forced) urged to expand and take the game more into a mid/late game.
The general consensus is that zerg has the edge in the late game. I may agree with that, but the advantage is slight. It would be similar to the advantage terran maintains from the early to the mid game.
I doubt blizzard will change the mechanics of the zerg race enough to give them a plethora of options in the early game. Their options begin more in late game. Until then, they are forced the weather the storm. I just want them to have the tools to be able to weather it. Thoughts?
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First patches are never full on balance patches, they are usually last minute additions or bug fixes. Wait for 1.2 then we'll see what happens to game balance.
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Idra pretty much summarized it all and very! I think blizzard are too slow i mean 1 month is alot of time..
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EPT
