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In light of the ZvT matchup Zerg simply does not have options in the early game. What are the ways we can kill our opponents in the early game?
Ling rush
Roach rush
Both of these are prevented by a wall with buildings that would already be built, just now in a different position making them more effective than originally intended. So now what...?
Baneling bust
This is prevented by a well timed (I don't even think it's "well timed" if it's just the 2nd energy available post orbital) scanner sweep revealing an early baneling nest. Terran can build the forthcoming buildings behind their narrow ramp to prevent significant, game changing damage. Another option for Terran is to clog their ramp with a few mauraders. Both options are somewhat cost efficient, and if a baneling bust were to fail it is likely that Z will fall too far behind in the macro game.
So now what are the zerg's option? Weather the storm until lair tech is finished so that we can apply pressure back on terran. What kind of pressure can zerg apply?
Nydus Network
Burrowed Roaches
Burrowed Infestors
Overlord Drops
Hydra + ground
Mutalisk
Let's review how easy it is for Terran to handle this. Not necessarily STOP this, but just contain this to doing minimal damage without having to go too far out of the way (tech tree, economy):
Nydus Network - this is handled simply by putting your buildings in places to reveal the vulnerable parts of your base. As long as you're a decent player who checks your minimap you should be able to see a Nydus Network coming. A smarter Zerg player may wait for you to move out during a push to pop his Nydus, but this will only initiate a base race which an equal skilled Zerg will inevitably lose because terran buildings can fly and create free harvestors when they land.
Burrowed Roach and Burrowed Infestors - walled off in the front will stop this. Or a sensor tower. Or a turret anywhere near your ramp/natural. Or a careful eye on the ridges on the ground + scans. Or a raven.
Overlord Drops - if the Terran player has not poked or harassed you by the time you have a sizable ground army plus BOTH overlord upgrades, s/he is probably not a very good player. Executing a good OL drop results in a similar base trade as the Nydus.
Hydralisks + ground - Sure if you push up at their ramp with hydras/stuff and bring some OL/OS to spot the high ground, you could just ram through the front door and cause severe damage. But any good Terran player will have scouted you and know what type of force you have. It's easy for them to fortify (they are terran after all) and snipe your slow hydras with tanks, thors, helions, mmm, erm anything. Spread creep first? Oh yeah a good terran player stops that too. Trying to position your OL in an aggressive position to spit creep will be thwarted by a good Terran player.
Mutalisks - Ah the bread and butter of a zerg swarm in zvt. How often have you finally gotten mutas and eagerly showed up at the terran base only be to invited by turrets and stimmed marines or a defensive thor. Magic box the thor you say? Sure it will work vs a thor, but not much else. It's probably the most versatile form of zerg aggression (pre hive), but really as long as the Terran scans and prepares (with units from buildings he ALREADY HAS) he can minimize the damage and render your mutas useless.
Now I know I mentioned that "a good terran player" will be able to handle all the things that zerg throws at him. And the response might be that the zerg just has to improve. But these are all under the pretense that the players are of equal skill. It sucks that zerg must go out of its way (tech and eco wise) to counter and survive something terran throws at 'em. Meanwhile when terran needs to stop the specific things zerg throws at 'em, they simply build out of their buildings that they already have. Oh but some buildings require a tech lab, lift and swap. Ghosts and BCs are the only units that really require an additional building, and they're auxiliary at best in ZvT. You can scout a terran and see a bunch of buildings and have to make HUGE assumptions on what they're building. If a terran scouts a zerg and sees a baneling nest and spire, they know EXACTLY what they're building. The skill required for these two different players is too handicapped to help the terran in this situation.
Whew, my zerg thoughts in a nutshell. I'm about 1300 diamond zerg and I didn't really start struggling vs terran until recently.
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100% agree with Idra , as usual he gets a spot on analysis about the balances (tho he isn't the most likeable person in the world haha)
I honestly dont know what Blizzard was thinking when they nerfed Tanks/Zealots , make protoss weaker early game and terran weaker late game = balanced? Seriously?
Reaper nerf isn't really a big diff , As a Terran player i have many other openings against Z anyways, I have yet to try changing it from 5 rax to 6 Rax reaper so that needs some testing.
Overall patch change didnt help the original problem at all and the zerg life is still as hard as it ever was, however they created another problem in TvP now ... jeez...
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I play random at the Plat/Diamond level and while I'm no Idra I completely disagree with him. The Seige Tank nerf is HUGE for TvZ and 5 rax reapers are significantly less powerful. Combine this with the Warp Gate nerf and I think the net result is a huge indirect buff for Zerg. Since the patch I've noticed my win rate with Zerg skyrocket and my win rate with Protoss plummet (Terran has remained relatively the same.) If anything I think Protoss is the one in need of a buff now, not Zerg.
How is Terran stronger early game after the patch? They received no buff for early game units (and instead got Reapers and Bunkers nerfed.) How is Protoss stronger late game after the patch? They received no buff for late game units (only the nerf to Warp Gates.) His logic makes absolutely no sense.
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On September 24 2010 13:55 Rahlekk wrote:
I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me.
He has had plenty to complain about as a Zerg player.
It is nearly impossible to enter mid-game with an advantage as Zerg. You are ALWAYS behind for the first 10-15 minutes of any game and you're supposed to be the one making waves of units and throwing them to their doom because you're Zerg.
Instead, you're stuck with this liability where you MUST FE in order to enter mid-game in any decent fashion, all-the-while, T and P can throw units away, forcing you to make more and more zerglings so that by the time you've made it through the first 10 minutes of the game, you're a full 5+ workers behind with nothing to show for it.
Zerg has all kinds of things wrong with it, I just hope they come up with something soon. It's very annoying basically flipping a coin every time I go up against a T player.
50% chance he wins in the first 10 minutes
50% chance we will enter mid-game with me only slightly behind then we can see who is a better player.
There is just so much to account for in the first 10 minutes of ZvT you're basically throwing dice and hoping you picked right.
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The tank nerf definitely seems to weaken tanks vs lings. That's about it though. It's not like marines and hellions didn't already wreck mass ling anyways.
It definitely affects TvP most of all because now tank/marauder is countered by infinite chargelots as opposed to requiring air or immortals.
I think he has really good points all around and honestly he's right on every count. Blizzard cannot afford to be this passive with regards to balancing. ZvT is SO imbalanced right now that a few minor changes do almost nothing.
There needs to be a couple changes to ZvT that can help fix the MU:
-Fix NP to be like it was early beta. 50 energy 9 range no research no channel time. Make going mass thor punishable. Infestors are great units, but NP is just too expensive to be worth the risk right now.
-Fix turrets so they don't decimate muta. Right now 1 turret with autorepair scvs can kill like 6 mutalisks. That's soooooo wrong. They already benefit from a range upgrade, have 50 more hp than in BW, and can get 2 armor as well. Coupled with better scv ai and turrets are pretty strong as is. They really do not need to do so much damage to light targets. Mutalisk should be capable of harassing terran way better than they can right now. It'd be a good way to punish early aggression/contain builds. Right now if you go spire and have marine/tank pounding at your front, your say, 7 mutas, pop and then you go to their base to try to kill their economy only to find 2 turrets. That's GG. 2 turrets should not stop that.
-Make burrowed roach faster. The problem with burrowed roach is that it's like a minute commitment to burrow out of sight, get in position and unburrow on them, and meanwhile you have to pray they don't scan, move, or get a raven there. Roach need to be a lot more agile while burrowed so they can be less risky and gimmicky. They're a great answer to mech/biotank in theory, but they're too high risk right now.
Idra is right about the scouting issue as well, and honestly just a base increase in overlord speed or perhaps a way to get hatch tech overseers would fix the problem.
Then again, removing stim from marauders would probably solve 99% of balance problems in this game.
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On September 24 2010 14:07 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:55 Rahlekk wrote:
I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me. He has had plenty to complain about as a Zerg player. It is nearly impossible to enter mid-game with an advantage as Zerg. You are ALWAYS behind for the first 10-15 minutes of any game and you're supposed to be the one making waves of units and throwing them to their doom because you're Zerg. Instead, you're stuck with this liability where you MUST FE in order to enter mid-game in any decent fashion, all-the-while, T and P can throw units away, forcing you to make more and more zerglings so that by the time you've made it through the first 10 minutes of the game, you're a full 5+ workers behind with nothing to show for it. Zerg has all kinds of things wrong with it, I just hope they come up with something soon. It's very annoying basically flipping a coin every time I go up against a T player. 50% chance he wins in the first 10 minutes 50% chance we will enter mid-game with me only slightly behind then we can see who is a better player. There is just so much to account for in the first 10 minutes of ZvT you're basically throwing dice and hoping you picked right.
There certainly might be an early-mid game advantage for Terran. However, there is a critical point at which that tide turns. Rather than trying to explain it, here's an illustration of what I believe the current matchup to be like.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UP42m.jpg)
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you might want to add Terran increasing. After a critical mass of whatever unit or around the Terran's third base, Terran starts to get slightly favored again.
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On September 24 2010 14:14 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:07 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 24 2010 13:55 Rahlekk wrote:
I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me. He has had plenty to complain about as a Zerg player. It is nearly impossible to enter mid-game with an advantage as Zerg. You are ALWAYS behind for the first 10-15 minutes of any game and you're supposed to be the one making waves of units and throwing them to their doom because you're Zerg. Instead, you're stuck with this liability where you MUST FE in order to enter mid-game in any decent fashion, all-the-while, T and P can throw units away, forcing you to make more and more zerglings so that by the time you've made it through the first 10 minutes of the game, you're a full 5+ workers behind with nothing to show for it. Zerg has all kinds of things wrong with it, I just hope they come up with something soon. It's very annoying basically flipping a coin every time I go up against a T player. 50% chance he wins in the first 10 minutes 50% chance we will enter mid-game with me only slightly behind then we can see who is a better player. There is just so much to account for in the first 10 minutes of ZvT you're basically throwing dice and hoping you picked right. There certainly might be an early-mid game advantage for Terran. However, there is a critical point at which that tide turns. Rather than trying to explain it, here's an illustration of what I believe the current matchup to be like.
The graph is slightly off , Zerg advantage comes much much later , when it reaches late game at most it's just a balanced situation , zerg advantage only kicks in when u have 200 food , and another 200 food worth of $$$ and larvae , and boy does that situation rarely pops out
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On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT.
Yes!
There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done.
I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines.
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On September 24 2010 14:20 john0507 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:14 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On September 24 2010 14:07 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 24 2010 13:55 Rahlekk wrote:
I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me. He has had plenty to complain about as a Zerg player. It is nearly impossible to enter mid-game with an advantage as Zerg. You are ALWAYS behind for the first 10-15 minutes of any game and you're supposed to be the one making waves of units and throwing them to their doom because you're Zerg. Instead, you're stuck with this liability where you MUST FE in order to enter mid-game in any decent fashion, all-the-while, T and P can throw units away, forcing you to make more and more zerglings so that by the time you've made it through the first 10 minutes of the game, you're a full 5+ workers behind with nothing to show for it. Zerg has all kinds of things wrong with it, I just hope they come up with something soon. It's very annoying basically flipping a coin every time I go up against a T player. 50% chance he wins in the first 10 minutes 50% chance we will enter mid-game with me only slightly behind then we can see who is a better player. There is just so much to account for in the first 10 minutes of ZvT you're basically throwing dice and hoping you picked right. There certainly might be an early-mid game advantage for Terran. However, there is a critical point at which that tide turns. Rather than trying to explain it, here's an illustration of what I believe the current matchup to be like. The graph is slightly off , Zerg advantage comes much much later , when it reaches late game at most it's just a balanced situation , zerg advantage only kicks in when u have 200 food , and another 200 food worth of $$$ and larvae , and boy does that situation rarely pops out
I would disagree. I think the point that the advantage line crosses 50% in favor of zerg is when the number of Zerg tech buildings >= Terran tech buildings. At that point they have essentially equal versatility with the ability to produce CONSIDERABLY more units per unit time.
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I'm very impressed how professional he was.
And as a Terran player, I agree with most of his sentiments. Blizzard blocked one of many holes that causes problems with the balance, but its a step.
Hope the next patch is awesome, or the patches become more frequent.
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On September 24 2010 11:41 Xunaka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:43 De4ngus wrote:
No tanks are not just as strong as pre patch. Now protoss has 2 ground units that kick tank ass all over. Immortal and now Zealot. Blizzard is slowly screwing terran by making them go bio. I will probably be switching too protoss from terran, even if terran never get another nerf. I just cant stand having to make infantry against toss.
I think the problem with most balance issues is because zerg needs something. What that is i dont know, i will let better players that dont have bias figure that out. Even though im not an Idra fan, I do trust his judgement on matters when he isnt ranting. Tanks do the same damage to immortals as they did pre patch, and immortals are hardly the answer to a tank line.,Zealots will still die to tanks if you have a decent number of them I can't even begin to fathom how you think tanks suck vs toss now. Simply put don't just make tanks?
Why is your quote of me show me as "De4ngus"? Anyway. I said they now have 2 units yes, but you are mireading. I wasnt saying at all that the immortal is a new counter to tanks. But now that protoss can use 2 strong ground units to counter terrans best answer to anything ground (been that way for 12 years), it seems that the matchup will soon be a joke. First, the only other mech option terran has is the thor. Which is almost completely useless due to feedback. Hellions only work in special situations. So nerfing the tank was by far the stupidest decision blizzard could have made when trying to make balance changes. Im kinda being a broken record (or an echo), but bio against protoss is very bad. Think about what protoss is good at, and thats killing cheap mass units. Not only does this nerf give even more reason to not use tanks (unless your opponent is stupid and going mass stalker). And now the ghost has emp. Which I also think is stupid. I think the raven should have emp. so not only are tanks less viable, now i have to make ghosts. so my army consists of marines (which suck in the mid to late game), marauders (which are probably going to get a nerf soon because of all the complaints), and ghosts. Does that seem like an army youd want fighting the most technological race in existance?
+ Show Spoiler +If you couldnt figure that out on your own: The answer is no.
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On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines.
Zerg has to decide whether to use the Larve for drones or units.. not both, unlike Terran. Terran can sit in his base and not move out, if a Zerg reacts inappropriately to it, they will be behind in economy as they could have used the larva for drones instead.
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On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines.
Get a friend to test something with you, and you'll see why all top zergs in the world expand super super early.
You play as a zerg , stay on one base and make one Def Unit every 3 Drones you make.
Then have your friend , stay on one base , and constantly make SCVs while constantly making out of 3/4 Racks.
Check your replay of that match at the 5th minute, 7th minute, and 10th minute and see how outrageous large your disadvantage is in both Army and Harvester Count
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I don't think that the graph is necessarily accurate. You're assuming infinite area and infinite expansions. When you get late game where money is scarce, T is impossible to break with PF and SCV's, and the most cost effective dps T1 unit, the marine, which by that time most likely have good upgrades to break small numbers of zerg units.
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On September 24 2010 14:22 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:20 john0507 wrote:On September 24 2010 14:14 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On September 24 2010 14:07 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 24 2010 13:55 Rahlekk wrote:
I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me. He has had plenty to complain about as a Zerg player. It is nearly impossible to enter mid-game with an advantage as Zerg. You are ALWAYS behind for the first 10-15 minutes of any game and you're supposed to be the one making waves of units and throwing them to their doom because you're Zerg. Instead, you're stuck with this liability where you MUST FE in order to enter mid-game in any decent fashion, all-the-while, T and P can throw units away, forcing you to make more and more zerglings so that by the time you've made it through the first 10 minutes of the game, you're a full 5+ workers behind with nothing to show for it. Zerg has all kinds of things wrong with it, I just hope they come up with something soon. It's very annoying basically flipping a coin every time I go up against a T player. 50% chance he wins in the first 10 minutes 50% chance we will enter mid-game with me only slightly behind then we can see who is a better player. There is just so much to account for in the first 10 minutes of ZvT you're basically throwing dice and hoping you picked right. There certainly might be an early-mid game advantage for Terran. However, there is a critical point at which that tide turns. Rather than trying to explain it, here's an illustration of what I believe the current matchup to be like. The graph is slightly off , Zerg advantage comes much much later , when it reaches late game at most it's just a balanced situation , zerg advantage only kicks in when u have 200 food , and another 200 food worth of $$$ and larvae , and boy does that situation rarely pops out I would disagree. I think the point that the advantage line crosses 50% in favor of zerg is when the number of Zerg tech buildings >= Terran tech buildings. At that point they have essentially equal versatility with the ability to produce CONSIDERABLY more units per unit time.
More like when number of Zerg bases > Number of Terran bases +2.
Tech means nothing when you don't have the econ to support it and instantly replenish your army.
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On September 24 2010 14:27 cerebralz wrote:
I don't think that the graph is necessarily accurate. You're assuming infinite area and infinite expansions. When you get late game where money is scarce, T is impossible to break with PF and SCV's, and the most cost effective dps T1 unit, the marine, which by that time most likely have good upgrades to break small numbers of zerg units.
Have you not seen the newest video of 1.1 Ultras attacking a planetary fortress?
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On September 24 2010 14:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:27 cerebralz wrote:
I don't think that the graph is necessarily accurate. You're assuming infinite area and infinite expansions. When you get late game where money is scarce, T is impossible to break with PF and SCV's, and the most cost effective dps T1 unit, the marine, which by that time most likely have good upgrades to break small numbers of zerg units. Have you not seen the newest video of 1.1 Ultras attacking a planetary fortress?
If Terran turtles like that, they deserved to be punished. A handful of marauders to defend against that many ultras? The Ultras has also taken significant amount of damage; if more forces was there to flank the ultras, they would've been decimated.
Yes, that splash will be patched in future patch.
Remember how ridiculous it is for a Terran player to defend against a +100 zerg army with a single PF and a handful of workers?
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On September 24 2010 14:29 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:27 cerebralz wrote:
I don't think that the graph is necessarily accurate. You're assuming infinite area and infinite expansions. When you get late game where money is scarce, T is impossible to break with PF and SCV's, and the most cost effective dps T1 unit, the marine, which by that time most likely have good upgrades to break small numbers of zerg units. Have you not seen the newest video of 1.1 Ultras attacking a planetary fortress?
In all fairness, that is a bug that will be patched out of the game.
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On September 24 2010 14:28 pencilcase wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:22 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On September 24 2010 14:20 john0507 wrote:On September 24 2010 14:14 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On September 24 2010 14:07 Jermstuddog wrote:On September 24 2010 13:55 Rahlekk wrote:
I understand where Idra is coming from, but I've just been sick of all his complaints as of late.
But, I'm mostly unmoved by the patch as well, it hasn't changed much for me. He has had plenty to complain about as a Zerg player. It is nearly impossible to enter mid-game with an advantage as Zerg. You are ALWAYS behind for the first 10-15 minutes of any game and you're supposed to be the one making waves of units and throwing them to their doom because you're Zerg. Instead, you're stuck with this liability where you MUST FE in order to enter mid-game in any decent fashion, all-the-while, T and P can throw units away, forcing you to make more and more zerglings so that by the time you've made it through the first 10 minutes of the game, you're a full 5+ workers behind with nothing to show for it. Zerg has all kinds of things wrong with it, I just hope they come up with something soon. It's very annoying basically flipping a coin every time I go up against a T player. 50% chance he wins in the first 10 minutes 50% chance we will enter mid-game with me only slightly behind then we can see who is a better player. There is just so much to account for in the first 10 minutes of ZvT you're basically throwing dice and hoping you picked right. There certainly might be an early-mid game advantage for Terran. However, there is a critical point at which that tide turns. Rather than trying to explain it, here's an illustration of what I believe the current matchup to be like. The graph is slightly off , Zerg advantage comes much much later , when it reaches late game at most it's just a balanced situation , zerg advantage only kicks in when u have 200 food , and another 200 food worth of $$$ and larvae , and boy does that situation rarely pops out I would disagree. I think the point that the advantage line crosses 50% in favor of zerg is when the number of Zerg tech buildings >= Terran tech buildings. At that point they have essentially equal versatility with the ability to produce CONSIDERABLY more units per unit time. More like when number of Zerg bases > Number of Terran bases +2. Tech means nothing when you don't have the econ to support it and instantly replenish your army.
I think that's a bit exaggerated... A Zerg with two fully saturated mineral patches and a solid tech tree CAN match evenly with a Terran on two bases. But 1 base versus 1 base, you're right, Zerg doesn't have a chance.
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EPT
