I think he's spot on with pretty much all of that. I've had a lot easier time defending early toss agression, but that may also be the P meta shifting away from that extreme pressure due to over-reacting to the change. Terran though is fundamentally unchanged and remains as retarded a matchup as ever.

cerebralz

United States443 Posts

September 24 2010 03:02 GMT

#82

Ya, there isn't one or two things you can do to fix zerg, it's a whole bunch of things that would give them a fighting chance.

However, i don't believe you have to change the entire tech tree to do so. There are some simple things that can make a huge difference. Having either Overseers or ovie speed at t1 would be huge. It makes no sense after all that after BW overlords lost the ability to "see."

Giving the queen a single target Ensnare (ie BW ensnare -mov speed, -attk speed) ability instead of transfusion would be instrumental for the early game to help hold off air rushes/reaper/hellion/fast zeal.

Allow the queen to be built at the same time as a morphing/teching hatchery. So you can do your first research/morph while getting the 2nd queen.

Make creep expand/receed faster.

Decrease the lair morph time by 25% or more.

Change the cost of additional nydus exits to 150/0, OR make them simultaneously spammable from one entrance.

Or a host of other good suggestions from these forums. One or a few changes aren't going to cut it. If anything, blizz has grossly underestimated the development speed of the game. Things catch on very fast, spread and evolve. In other words, they don't have 10 years to patch it just right until their target audience gets fed up and quits.

DuneBug

United States668 Posts

September 24 2010 03:05 GMT

#83

I agree with idra and it's nice to hear his point of view, but mostly because he's a pro-gamer, not just because he's Idra. I'd also like to hear opinions from other pros. Although there aren't too many quality zergs floating around that might actually have an opinion.

I think it's early on, the fans are interested in balance issues... Humor us and give your opinions.

MasterAsia

United States170 Posts

September 24 2010 03:07 GMT

#84

Its not something about nerfing any units. Its something about the game design. The core concept in the game design is to make Terran unstopable. Any nerfing is just temporary. Maybe zerg or protoss will feel good in several weeks after one patch, but then terran will be imbalanced again.

Zero RDS

Canada104 Posts

September 24 2010 03:08 GMT

#85

any thoughts on the idea i had with a new hatchery upgrade?

smegged

Australia213 Posts

September 24 2010 03:09 GMT

#86

On September 24 2010 12:02 cerebralz wrote:
However, i don't believe you have to change the entire tech tree to do so. There are some simple things that can make a huge difference. Having either Overseers or ovie speed at t1 would be huge. It makes no sense after all that after BW overlords lost the ability to "see."

Easy. In between the Broodwars and the events of Wings of Liberty there were major advances in cloaking technologies made by all races, thus requiring the evolution of a new "super-strain" of overlords, called overseers to spot the cloaked units.

Artery

United States81 Posts

September 24 2010 03:13 GMT

#87

You have to agree with Idra. Like him or not, he know's this game inside and out. I do happen to like Idra and I respect his opinion, and when so many games seem unchanged especially late game after this patch then it is obvious something else needs to be done. The BC and tank nerfs were the most appreciated thing from this patch from all match up perspectives.

For me personally, I havn't had much initiative to play. I am a zerg player and I don't intend to be switching with the tides like most people and therefore I don't see myself playing that much. Thank god for customs until all the hard balance work is figured out. And big thanks to people like Idra taking time to speak what is on his mind to open the eyes of blizzard on what is wrong with this patch.

airety

United States63 Posts

September 24 2010 03:14 GMT

#88

Idra is pretty spot on- and most importantly he's level, which is something a lot of other zergs have had a hard time with. I totally get it- it can be infuriating that "we" get it but Blizzard doesn't, but expressing it with rage probably doesn't help and just incites the people who still think Zerg players just aren't as good as Terran or Protoss players.

I think he hits on it pretty good- Zerg 1 basing is pathetic, but fast 2 basing makes them incredibly vulnerable to tons of harass. They also seem to be the most immobile race (this may change as new strats are learned/refined) but lack any true siege capabilities. Add this in with the fact that 4 of the 6 units you can make at T1 have a speed upgrade that you must purchase for them to be "useful" makes Zerg just feel really slow. Creep obviously helps, but you can't exactly have a creep highway from the start of the game.

I'm not sure more nerfs to Terran and Protoss are the answer because TvP is/was relatively close as a matchup, and even changes as "small" as the increase in zealot build time really changes that matchup.

WaZuP

Germany487 Posts

September 24 2010 03:18 GMT

#89

The Patch isnt that old so the real impact isnt yet to see, at least in my opinion
But what Idra says sounds quite reasonabl and i like to read anything about balance thats not thougtless imba whine which a lot of people do (like second post T_T)

TurboDreams

United States427 Posts

September 24 2010 03:18 GMT

#90

I totally agree with IdrA, Zergs early game still suffer alot.

On September 24 2010 12:07 MasterAsia wrote:
Its not something about nerfing any units. Its something about the game design. The core concept in the game design is to make Terran unstopable. Any nerfing is just temporary. Maybe zerg or protoss will feel good in several weeks after one patch, but then terran will be imbalanced again.

Well personally i truly think that most of the issues with the game stem from trying to balance a Hard Counter system. I really liked the Soft Counter system from BW because you can practically use any unit to stop something except for a few.

Nonsense

United States53 Posts

September 24 2010 03:21 GMT

#91

idra knows this game better than most people. when he speaks, people need to listen.

Rice

United States1332 Posts

September 24 2010 03:25 GMT

#92

On September 24 2010 10:29 SubtleArt wrote:
I remember Idra saying that ZvP lategame dramatically favored Zerg, but that seems to have changed. The game's deceptively simple at first, so I think we should just avoid knee jerk claims about balance and let it play itself out first.

that was when roach was 1 food and had insane regen at t3

ReketSomething

United States6012 Posts

September 24 2010 03:26 GMT

#93

I play random...Terran used to be my worst race but ever since I started massing reapers TvZ has become so fun and easy =)

ZvT vs a good terran on the other hand is hard because their reapers own your roaches T___T (or rather delay until marauders)

Sadistx

Zimbabwe5568 Posts

September 24 2010 03:33 GMT

#94

Agreed. I used to think ZvT was fine, but now that reapers have been nerfed, the problems only became more apparent. Hellion/banshee allins are nearly unstoppable and the Thor repair AI still remains unfixed.

You literally cannot have enough queens (the only tier 1 AA unit) to prevent banshees from completely killing half of your mineral line or the spire, or the queens, or the roaches.
You also cannot stop hellion harass on maps like Xel naga or Terran Quadrant, where the natural is basically an open space. You can get a hatch up, but you'd essentially still be on 1 base, while the terran can get a safe expo up.

I won't even begin to go into issues with maps like Steppes of War, where you can't hatch units in the time it takes to walk from one natural to the other.

holyhalo5

United States187 Posts

September 24 2010 03:33 GMT

#95

sorry, i have to ask.

how does this patch help protoss late-game against terran?

Djzapz

Canada10681 Posts

September 24 2010 03:34 GMT

#96

People who say we should let play it out don't really understand where the problems are. I'm not pretending I know, but it's quite obvious to me that this patch misses the point. It really does.

theqat

United States2856 Posts

September 24 2010 03:36 GMT

#97

On September 24 2010 12:33 holyhalo5 wrote:
sorry, i have to ask.

how does this patch help protoss late-game against terran?

Mass tank is less viable because Zealots counter them much more handily with 35+15a damage instead of 50 damage

No_eL

Chile1438 Posts

September 24 2010 03:38 GMT

#98

i cant believe.. but im totally agree with idra this time. the game its still broken, the viking cup today was painful to watch, terran its so strong and easy to manage right now! lalush made a miracle.

AcrossFiveJulys

United States3612 Posts

September 24 2010 03:38 GMT

#99

I completely agree with idra from a terran perspective. While i do think it was a step in the right direction for TvZ it doesn't completely fix the problems. I especially agree that it was terrible for TvP, since T already had the advantage in the early game (which zealot nerf exacerbates) and P already had the advantage in the late game (which siege tank nerf exacerbates).

theqat

United States2856 Posts

September 24 2010 03:43 GMT

#100

I don't think that's necessarily true. I see what you're saying--Terran is designed to be highly flexible while having a hard counter for every unit/strat in the game, but it is possible to take some of those options away from them without turning the game into something that isn't Starcraft.

I guess the question becomes where you draw the line between "nerfing" and "changing core game concepts." Nerfing isn't limited to units; you can nerf a strategy or nerf Tech Lab versatility or nerf Terran's resistance to losing workers by adding a cooldown to MULEs. The game isn't a lost cause.