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On September 21 2010 01:10 junemermaid wrote:
On the zerg side of the equation, I'd be interested in seeing how people refine the six pool more.
On the protoss side, you can always just do a complete wall-off, clog a probe in the choke point to make up for the zealot build time.
And this is really only an issue on Steppes, and even then, its not an issue.
Basically anything you do that doesn't drop your probe count below 6 is in the protoss' favor.
There is very little to do with a 6-7 pool other than choose 6 or 7 and maybe (very maybe) try to drop some form of proxy hatchery creep and building in the wall to cancel as you run up (but in my experience you don't get 300 minerals by the time you get there).
I think the best refinement you can expect is an immediate drone scout as the pool goes down trying to patrol the ramp to keep it clear.
The BO is:
6 drone
7 pool
6 drone
7-8-9 lings when pool pops
10OL
If you are against zerg send 2 drones as you click the lings for creation, delay the overlord a little and drop 2 spine crawlers just as lings arrive (the lings are faster than drones which is why drones are sent first). Against toss you would have a faster OL and coul still send out the 2 drones (a little earlier even) to patrol on ramp.
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On September 21 2010 01:07 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 00:58 ELA wrote:On September 21 2010 00:53 Konsume wrote:On September 21 2010 00:45 Camlito wrote:
I'm gonna have me some obnoxious protoss tears in a few days :D. I really really really doupt it's going to change anything on anymaps BUT steppes of war. In any case I bet that they will have to start with forge 10 on steppes and take late gaz. protoss [a+move] will just be less of a no-brainer early game now! as for terran changes.... I doupt it's going to do anything significant in TvZ... so.... I don't know... I would say that Hydralisks are a fair bit more viable in ZvT now - It takes 3 shots from a sieged up siegetank to kill a hydra now.. Thats pretty huge! Actually the units that will benefit from this most are the Queen and the IT. ITs can now soak up 2 tank hits (and cause 2 splash hits to nearby units). Queens can be used to soak up a bunch of hits from the early 2-3 tank/marine push as the lings run in. Remember that hydras get destroyed by stimmed marines, blue flame hellions, to some extent thors ... and still can't move faster than an anemic snail. I don't think we will see that many more hydras but hopefully we will see more cool infestor play (especially from the pros). I know that even in my games ITs causing 2 splash hits would be great for killing that silly bio ball beside the sieged tanks. The reaper nerf may not seem like much but it may be all that is needed to get up an extra queen or batch of roaches in time (or scout raxes 2-3-4-5 in time). The ultra nerf is actually a buff, supply depot/cannon/pylon walls or stacks will get destroyed which is a blessing (most of the time my ultras are running into cannon lines because they are one of the only units that can break them).
I think the biggest effect is going to be on zerglings. Yes, the tank will still 1 hit the zergling it targeted, but it will no longer 1 hit all the near by zergligns as well. If you get +1 armor it takes 2 hits for a tank to kill a zergling. So now the first 5-6 zerglings that enter range get killed, and the next 50 get in to do damage vs the first 20 zerglings getting killed before attacking anything. Seems pretty friggen huge to me.
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Not looking forward to early game Protoss. QQ. 
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On September 21 2010 01:07 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 00:58 ELA wrote:On September 21 2010 00:53 Konsume wrote:On September 21 2010 00:45 Camlito wrote:
I'm gonna have me some obnoxious protoss tears in a few days :D. I really really really doupt it's going to change anything on anymaps BUT steppes of war. In any case I bet that they will have to start with forge 10 on steppes and take late gaz. protoss [a+move] will just be less of a no-brainer early game now! as for terran changes.... I doupt it's going to do anything significant in TvZ... so.... I don't know... I would say that Hydralisks are a fair bit more viable in ZvT now - It takes 3 shots from a sieged up siegetank to kill a hydra now.. Thats pretty huge! Actually the units that will benefit from this most are the Queen and the IT. ITs can now soak up 2 tank hits (and cause 2 splash hits to nearby units). Queens can be used to soak up a bunch of hits from the early 2-3 tank/marine push as the lings run in. Remember that hydras get destroyed by stimmed marines, blue flame hellions, to some extent thors ... and still can't move faster than an anemic snail. I don't think we will see that many more hydras but hopefully we will see more cool infestor play (especially from the pros). I know that even in my games ITs causing 2 splash hits would be great for killing that silly bio ball beside the sieged tanks. The reaper nerf may not seem like much but it may be all that is needed to get up an extra queen or batch of roaches in time (or scout raxes 2-3-4-5 in time). The ultra nerf is actually a buff, supply depot/cannon/pylon walls or stacks will get destroyed which is a blessing (most of the time my ultras are running into cannon lines because they are one of the only units that can break them).
And thus TvZ-balance has been altered - And quite abit too, in my oppinion.
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I still think it's hilarious how nobody used to use tanks in Beta, and now we've come to this. Still, it's fair enough, as Tanks are lol in all 3 matchups. I'm expecting to see big changes in the game, especially in TvZ.
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Really like the patch, as a random player, I don't care that much about the change but i guess there will still be some adaptation regarding the build now. Early zeal was helpful in 2v2 against rush, will see how it's goes now !
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On September 18 2010 17:59 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 17:49 cocosoft wrote:
Guys, I guess we can safely say that the "leaked" patch notes was fake. How so? The fact that the notes were leaked just before we got this info, if anything, makes it more believable =o No it wasnt...
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On September 21 2010 01:29 MangoTango wrote:
I still think it's hilarious how nobody used to use tanks in Beta, and now we've come to this. Still, it's fair enough, as Tanks are lol in all 3 matchups. I'm expecting to see big changes in the game, especially in TvZ.
True enough. I still remember back in the beginning of beta, most people say tanks are too cost ineffective and don't bother with them. I wonder who was the first person that uses tank effectively, though.
Anyway, I think tanks would still be a staple unit in TvX (well maybe not so much in TvP) because many core units are armor. And lining up 3-4 tanks would still be very frightening scene to see. On the other hand, we might see less tanks if as it would be use as more support role instead. Only time will tell.
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On September 21 2010 02:03 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 01:29 MangoTango wrote:
I still think it's hilarious how nobody used to use tanks in Beta, and now we've come to this. Still, it's fair enough, as Tanks are lol in all 3 matchups. I'm expecting to see big changes in the game, especially in TvZ. True enough. I still remember back in the beginning of beta, most people say tanks are too cost ineffective and don't bother with them. I wonder who was the first person that uses tank effectively, though. Anyway, I think tanks would still be a staple unit in TvX (well maybe not so much in TvP) because many core units are armor. And lining up 3-4 tanks would still be very frightening scene to see. On the other hand, we might see less tanks if as it would be use as more support role instead. Only time will tell.
I'm really surprised we don't see more tanks in TvP. The only unit the tank doesn't molest is the immortal, whos sole purpose was to counter the tank.
I guess MMM is just so much easier to use and works pretty well.
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On September 21 2010 02:05 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 02:03 Veldril wrote:On September 21 2010 01:29 MangoTango wrote:
I still think it's hilarious how nobody used to use tanks in Beta, and now we've come to this. Still, it's fair enough, as Tanks are lol in all 3 matchups. I'm expecting to see big changes in the game, especially in TvZ. True enough. I still remember back in the beginning of beta, most people say tanks are too cost ineffective and don't bother with them. I wonder who was the first person that uses tank effectively, though. Anyway, I think tanks would still be a staple unit in TvX (well maybe not so much in TvP) because many core units are armor. And lining up 3-4 tanks would still be very frightening scene to see. On the other hand, we might see less tanks if as it would be use as more support role instead. Only time will tell. I'm really surprised we don't see more tanks in TvP. The only unit the tank doesn't molest is the immortal, whos sole purpose was to counter the tank. I guess MMM is just so much easier to use and works pretty well.
actually chargelots roflstomp tanks. thats the main reason why they are not effective in tvp...
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I wonder when we will actually get the patch notes though. So much anticipation!
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On September 21 2010 02:08 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 02:05 junemermaid wrote:On September 21 2010 02:03 Veldril wrote:On September 21 2010 01:29 MangoTango wrote:
I still think it's hilarious how nobody used to use tanks in Beta, and now we've come to this. Still, it's fair enough, as Tanks are lol in all 3 matchups. I'm expecting to see big changes in the game, especially in TvZ. True enough. I still remember back in the beginning of beta, most people say tanks are too cost ineffective and don't bother with them. I wonder who was the first person that uses tank effectively, though. Anyway, I think tanks would still be a staple unit in TvX (well maybe not so much in TvP) because many core units are armor. And lining up 3-4 tanks would still be very frightening scene to see. On the other hand, we might see less tanks if as it would be use as more support role instead. Only time will tell. I'm really surprised we don't see more tanks in TvP. The only unit the tank doesn't molest is the immortal, whos sole purpose was to counter the tank. I guess MMM is just so much easier to use and works pretty well. actually chargelots roflstomp tanks. thats the main reason why they are not effective in tvp...
oh yes, since they can magically charge through lines of marauders and marines! :>
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On September 21 2010 02:15 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 02:08 Black Gun wrote:On September 21 2010 02:05 junemermaid wrote:On September 21 2010 02:03 Veldril wrote:On September 21 2010 01:29 MangoTango wrote:
I still think it's hilarious how nobody used to use tanks in Beta, and now we've come to this. Still, it's fair enough, as Tanks are lol in all 3 matchups. I'm expecting to see big changes in the game, especially in TvZ. True enough. I still remember back in the beginning of beta, most people say tanks are too cost ineffective and don't bother with them. I wonder who was the first person that uses tank effectively, though. Anyway, I think tanks would still be a staple unit in TvX (well maybe not so much in TvP) because many core units are armor. And lining up 3-4 tanks would still be very frightening scene to see. On the other hand, we might see less tanks if as it would be use as more support role instead. Only time will tell. I'm really surprised we don't see more tanks in TvP. The only unit the tank doesn't molest is the immortal, whos sole purpose was to counter the tank. I guess MMM is just so much easier to use and works pretty well. actually chargelots roflstomp tanks. thats the main reason why they are not effective in tvp... oh yes, since they can magically charge through lines of marauders and marines! :>
It's pretty much about finding that sweet spot where you can get in when the T has tanks in PvT. Either when more than half of his tanks are unsieged or when he's moving out. Just gotta pick your battles. Easier said than done though. =/
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ye and that works pretty well when hes leapfrogging towards your base and your natural is under siege soon...
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On September 21 2010 01:26 ELA wrote:
And thus TvZ-balance has been altered - And quite abit too, in my oppinion.
And hopefully for the better.
The infestor and zergling use will still require judicious timing and good micro, the tanks remain strong against roaches and quite decent against hydras and banelings (and still not bad against lings, just less devastating).
Seems like a good thing.
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I'll enjoy not losing 4 zerglings for accidentally running in range of a tank.
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I hope they add replay sharing. I love the replay websites that show your stats and all, but having to alt+tab, upload, input information, then give a link, wait for a friend to DL, then get synchronized is kind of annoying...
SC2 (trying to show awesome skillz):
Me: "Oh yeah, look at 5:11-5:20..."
Friend: "What? There's nothing going on."
Me: "Wait where are you?"
Friend: "Are we on the TvP?"
Me: "I'm on the TvZ"
Friend: "Ohhhh, hold on a sec"
Friend: "Ok what was that time and where do I look?"
Me: "I don't really know how to explain it, kinda up and to the left of my first natural"
Friend: "Uh... what?"
SC1 (with replay sharing):
Me: "lol, look at his main"
Friend: "woah, nice micro"
Please, Blizzard, we need this.
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On September 21 2010 01:21 NukeTheBunnys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 01:07 Sixes wrote:On September 21 2010 00:58 ELA wrote:On September 21 2010 00:53 Konsume wrote:On September 21 2010 00:45 Camlito wrote:
I'm gonna have me some obnoxious protoss tears in a few days :D. I really really really doupt it's going to change anything on anymaps BUT steppes of war. In any case I bet that they will have to start with forge 10 on steppes and take late gaz. protoss [a+move] will just be less of a no-brainer early game now! as for terran changes.... I doupt it's going to do anything significant in TvZ... so.... I don't know... I would say that Hydralisks are a fair bit more viable in ZvT now - It takes 3 shots from a sieged up siegetank to kill a hydra now.. Thats pretty huge! Actually the units that will benefit from this most are the Queen and the IT. ITs can now soak up 2 tank hits (and cause 2 splash hits to nearby units). Queens can be used to soak up a bunch of hits from the early 2-3 tank/marine push as the lings run in. Remember that hydras get destroyed by stimmed marines, blue flame hellions, to some extent thors ... and still can't move faster than an anemic snail. I don't think we will see that many more hydras but hopefully we will see more cool infestor play (especially from the pros). I know that even in my games ITs causing 2 splash hits would be great for killing that silly bio ball beside the sieged tanks. The reaper nerf may not seem like much but it may be all that is needed to get up an extra queen or batch of roaches in time (or scout raxes 2-3-4-5 in time). The ultra nerf is actually a buff, supply depot/cannon/pylon walls or stacks will get destroyed which is a blessing (most of the time my ultras are running into cannon lines because they are one of the only units that can break them). I think the biggest effect is going to be on zerglings. Yes, the tank will still 1 hit the zergling it targeted, but it will no longer 1 hit all the near by zergligns as well. If you get +1 armor it takes 2 hits for a tank to kill a zergling. So now the first 5-6 zerglings that enter range get killed, and the next 50 get in to do damage vs the first 20 zerglings getting killed before attacking anything. Seems pretty friggen huge to me.
That is if the Terran has 1 tank but Tanks are the main unit vs Zerg these days. Atleast with my opponents. I do not see this tank change affecting much vs Zerg. Vs protoss though this will be huge.
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Looking at it as objectively as possible, how do you guys think the changes that we know of right now will affect PvT balance? Imo, slightly positive for P.
Longer zealot build / warp-in time is a pretty big minus... that's basically all that changed here
For Terran:
Battlecruiser dmg significantly lowered. Pretty big minus, but only very late game, but still significant
Tank dmg reduced vs. light units. Pretty significant, mostly because chargelots will be a lot stronger vs. tanks now. Also, a bit of missmicro with templars wont get them one-shotted anymore.
Bunker and reaper build time are miniscule changes but will help in that reaper rush will lose effectiveness a bit and early bunker pushes will be easier to spot and stop. Pretty minor, but still...
So all in all I would say P comes out of this patch on top, which I think is fair. Do you guys agree with my assessment? The reason I'm asking is that I played this whiny terran yesterday who, after losing, argued that it would be a lot easier playing against protoss in general now...
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Positive for P? You're kidding me. The whole patch pretty much make bio much stronger and makes tank builds less viable.
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EPT
