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On September 20 2010 17:16 ch4ppi wrote:Show nested quote +And I don't even wanna talk about how ridiculously bad Ultras are against Mass-Marauders, Mass-Tanks, BC's or Banshees. This was nearly an epic fail :D Ure right Marauders kill Ultras... as long as there is no fungal growth. But this fails so hard: Ultras destroy! Tanks, espacially Mass Tanks. BCs tickle Ultras with their attacks against 5 armor... but yeah ure right, when I see a BC fleet, my Ultras just dont stand a chance, I dont know what to do. I experienced the same problem against Banshees, somehow my Ultras cant get close enough to attack them. Man u realised, that BC, Banshees are air? I'm am Zerg player so I dont think in anyway that Terran is okay, but your statement is a shame 
If the Terran has anything protecting his Tanks, like Marauders or Thors, your Ultras will just evaporate, Mass-Ultras without Broodlords support fails horribly against Terran Mech.
And yes, BC's and banshees are Air, the problem with that is, that Zerg nearly has no Anti-Air when going Mass-Ultras and the fact that Terran can switch very fast to Mass-Air with Reactor+Starport for Vikings and a few Starports with TL for any Air-to-ground-Unit to deal the DMG,makes this a very potent and extremely hard to counter lategame-tactic for Terran.
Ppl are simply stating that Zerg-Lategame is very good and even superior to the Terran Lategame and that is just not true. Zerg has to heavily outmacro Terran in the lategame to stand a chance, even with the highest Tier-Units and Terrans Units are more cost-efficient throughout the game.
my statement just showed how many Options Terran has, even in the lategame, to completely decimate a Zerg-Army and countering a Ground-Army with Air-Units is a very good one. Even if you try to ridicule that sentiment with your witty comment that Ultras cannot attack air, that's exactly the point why it is so good.
It's all a matter of how cost-efficient your Units are and you are completely right in the assumption that Mass-Ultras can rape almost any ground-Army the Terran has, BUT they have to be in much larger numbers to be effective and you have to be able to flank and surround the opponent. Ever tried fighting off Tanks with any ground-unit-composition in Areas where you can't flank? Well good luck - cuz it's impossible.
I also don't know what you are trying to imply with your Post - do you think Ultras are OP or what? As soon as the next Patch further reduces the power of the Ultra, they simply won't be a viable choice against Terran anymore, so Terran just has to Mass Vikings in the lategame to counter Broodlords and they'll have a guaranteed win, cuz with PF's and the power of Mech to split the Map in half, there is just no way to outmacro Terran in the later stages of the game.
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On September 20 2010 18:07 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 17:16 ch4ppi wrote:And I don't even wanna talk about how ridiculously bad Ultras are against Mass-Marauders, Mass-Tanks, BC's or Banshees. This was nearly an epic fail :D Ure right Marauders kill Ultras... as long as there is no fungal growth. But this fails so hard: Ultras destroy! Tanks, espacially Mass Tanks. BCs tickle Ultras with their attacks against 5 armor... but yeah ure right, when I see a BC fleet, my Ultras just dont stand a chance, I dont know what to do. I experienced the same problem against Banshees, somehow my Ultras cant get close enough to attack them. Man u realised, that BC, Banshees are air? I'm am Zerg player so I dont think in anyway that Terran is okay, but your statement is a shame If the Terran has anything protecting his Tanks, like Marauders or Thors, your Ultras will just evaporate, Mass-Ultras without Broodlords support fails horribly against Terran Mech. And yes, BC's and banshees are Air, the problem with that is, that Zerg nearly has no Anti-Air when going Mass-Ultras and the fact that Terran can switch very fast to Mass-Air with Reactor+Starport for Vikings and a few Starports with TL for any Air-to-ground-Unit to deal the DMG,makes this a very potent and extremely hard to counter lategame-tactic for Terran. Ppl are simply stating that Zerg-Lategame is very good and even superior to the Terran Lategame and that is just not true. Zerg has to heavily outmacro Terran in the lategame to stand a chance, even with the highest Tier-Units and Terrans Units are more cost-efficient throughout the game. my statement just showed how many Options Terran has, even in the lategame, to completely decimate a Zerg-Army and countering a Ground-Army with Air-Units is a very good one. Even if you try to ridicule that sentiment with your witty comment that Ultras cannot attack air, that's exactly the point why it is so good. It's all a matter of how cost-efficient your Units are and you are completely right in the assumption that Mass-Ultras can rape almost any ground-Army the Terran has, BUT they have to be in much larger numbers to be effective and you have to be able to flank and surround the opponent. Ever tried fighting off Tanks with any ground-unit-composition in Areas where you can't flank? Well good luck - cuz it's impossible. I also don't know what you are trying to imply with your Post - do you think Ultras are OP or what? As soon as the next Patch further reduces the power of the Ultra, they simply won't be a viable choice against Terran anymore, so Terran just has to Mass Vikings in the lategame to counter Broodlords and they'll have a guaranteed win, cuz with PF's and the power of Mech to split the Map in half, there is just no way to outmacro Terran in the later stages of the game.
you rreally are exaggerating hard here.
T cant just "switch mass air". the 2 units you talked about,bc&banshee, need techlabs. a terran will have 0-1 starport with techlabs in tvz.
and ultras are plain amazing against almost evrything. the 10% nerf to their armored dmg wont change anything about that. and absolute will not make them "not viable".
yeah Z has problems, ye the maps are shit but i think you just are randomly complaining about things right now.
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I just hope that "leaked" mule change will happen. It makes so much sense to have 1 orbital only being able to control 1 mule.
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On September 20 2010 13:26 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 13:20 Malminos wrote:
yeah if the patch changes are just what was in the situation report i'll probably abandon SC2 for civ5 which COICIDENTALLY comes out the same day as the patch... lol. Balance changes don't matter for people who aren't super-high diamond. You aren't super-high diamond. If you're not having fun playing zerg, then switch races or change games, but don't blame it on balance. EDIT: maybe you were talking about chat rooms etc., as opposed to balance.
Tanks rape at low diamond - top platinum level too. I rage so much when my banelings and zerglings get decimated in two seconds. Not to mention how a stim-packed marine ball finishes / kites any banelings that might make it to them. You need to have twice the micro of the terran to win, and time your attacks extremely well. That's the only match-up that gives me so much trouble at my (low) level.
Anyway, tanks are not nerfed enough and will still OS glings and blings, so i don't really understand what they want to do, unless their only goal is to make marines more viable in TvT match-up...
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Let's get ready for Toss to be nerfed unnecessarily again!
I'm so ready to get 6/7/8 pooled endlessly on 2 player maps now because there's just no way to have a zeal out on, for example, steppes, even if you open 10 gate! that 5 seconds is crucial. That's the reason they buffed warpgates in the first place. Not to mention it's now going to be infinitely harder to sustain any attack in which you do less than steamroll your enemy, considering Zeal/Sentry is your main money sink vs Z and it'll be now be significantly slower. Zeal nerf doesn't seem like a big deal but it really really is.
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On September 20 2010 17:48 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 17:30 -Archangel- wrote:
Also GSL is played on private servers and I doubt they are going to patch those as well. Source?
Artosis and Tasteless are using an english client to observe the matches.
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the issues adressed to TvZ in this patch are a laugh (if the SR1 adressed all changes that will come(which i believe it did)).
nothing will change.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On September 20 2010 21:42 nailertn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 17:48 zimms wrote:On September 20 2010 17:30 -Archangel- wrote:
Also GSL is played on private servers and I doubt they are going to patch those as well. Source? Artosis and Tasteless are using an english client to observe the matches.
also the fact that they are zero latency and lag.
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On September 20 2010 21:53 lovewithlea wrote:
the issues adressed to TvZ in this patch are a laugh (if the SR1 adressed all changes that will come(which i believe it did)).
nothing will change.
A lot of people are getting their hopes up really high for some reason. Did you not follow the Beta or something? I just don't see why there would be suddenly a change in patching continuity, matchups will probably remain pretty much the same.
+ Show Spoiler +also Protoss severely nerfed, Terran with stuff that looks bad at first but will come out stronger for it, Zerg pretty much stays the same. c'mon guys, was like that for 16(?) patches straight, why would it change
Hope i'm wrong though. The biggest change would actually be some nicer maps, less rush friendly would help Zerg in general and could make PvT go longer than 10min more often (really most games are decided by the first push).
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On September 20 2010 21:09 ghermination wrote:
Let's get ready for Toss to be nerfed unnecessarily again!
I'm so ready to get 6/7/8 pooled endlessly on 2 player maps now because there's just no way to have a zeal out on, for example, steppes, even if you open 10 gate! that 5 seconds is crucial. That's the reason they buffed warpgates in the first place. Not to mention it's now going to be infinitely harder to sustain any attack in which you do less than steamroll your enemy, considering Zeal/Sentry is your main money sink vs Z and it'll be now be significantly slower. Zeal nerf doesn't seem like a big deal but it really really is.
Its a lot easier to defend 6/7/8 pool then to hold off 2 gate FE or 2 gate into 4 gate. Free tip: maybe use probes to kill lings. 2 Gate openings dmg the Z substantially more then they dmg P making the rest of the game quite one sided
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Both zergs got a terran in Round 16 GSL
Lets hope patch tomorrow actually makes a difference.
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Its a lot easier to defend 6/7/8 pool then to hold off 2 gate FE or 2 gate into 4 gate. Free tip: maybe use probes to kill lings. 2 Gate openings dmg the Z substantially more then they dmg P making the rest of the game quite one sided
HuK disagrees!
Will be interesting to see how this will pan out, but if you're really good at 6pooling (can you...be actually be good or bad cheese? i guess) the worst will be that you're even as the Zerg, it should really be an All-In and making it more safe is kinda...nonsensical?
They need to figure out a way to let Z defend a FE with static defense really, would make more sense than throwing nerf-bats around.
I'm still all for instead of taking stuff away from races, make the others stronger. Terran doesn't need to be nerfed, Blizzard actually did the best job with Terran out of the 3. Protoss just needs a couple small adjustments to get the variety T has and Zerg...well may need more stuff for the early game (you'll agree Zerg can have a pretty devastating endgame if they don't fall behind in the beginning?!).
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On September 20 2010 13:26 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 13:20 Malminos wrote:
yeah if the patch changes are just what was in the situation report i'll probably abandon SC2 for civ5 which COICIDENTALLY comes out the same day as the patch... lol. Balance changes don't matter for people who aren't super-high diamond. You aren't super-high diamond. If you're not having fun playing zerg, then switch races or change games, but don't blame it on balance.
That's simply not true. Especially for people who actually try to improve, balance matters a lot even when you're in lower diamond. For one, it is greatly upsetting when you're sweating after a game because you focused so much and put so much effort into it, but lost despite your opponent clearly playing worse / making a lot more mistakes etc.
Plus it really hurts at getting better. Sometimes when you lose games(I watch every replay where I lose and try to find my mistakes) you literally watch the replays times and times again and you can absolutely not pinpoint anything which you've done terribly wrong. Yes, here I forgot inject larvae for 10 seconds, yes, here I didn't expand the creep tumor for a few seconds, yes, I could've microed those 5 roaches a little bit better in that big fight, yes I could've taken the expansion 20 seconds earlier, but you always look at that and think like: even if I did that better, I wouldn't have won the game. And then you stare at the screen and are really disappointed etc. since you don't know what to do better next game. So you end up completely switching up your BO which of course doesn't change anything.
It also hurts to see that when you win a game and you realize that you just lost it because your opponent made a lot of really stupid mistakes and even then you don't steamroll him, you just scratch in the win after a long game.
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What if Ovy puke creep at T1? I have a feeling that's gonna sove the reaper problem, the lack of static defense at early expansion and the zerg cannot wall in problem all at the same time.
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On September 20 2010 13:26 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 13:20 Malminos wrote:
yeah if the patch changes are just what was in the situation report i'll probably abandon SC2 for civ5 which COICIDENTALLY comes out the same day as the patch... lol. Balance changes don't matter for people who aren't super-high diamond. You aren't super-high diamond. If you're not having fun playing zerg, then switch races or change games, but don't blame it on balance. EDIT: maybe you were talking about chat rooms etc., as opposed to balance.
I really don't agree with this, I mean balance should be suited to help the top tier players, but obviously it's going to have an effect on everyone else. Balance I think does have an effect on even lower tier play.
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so yesterday i had a game in Steeps, 1 gate cyber and noticed the zealot pops out just in time...now with this change i may need to 10 gate every single game on 2 player maps vs zerg lol.
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On September 20 2010 22:49 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
What if Ovy puke creep at T1? I have a feeling that's gonna sove the reaper problem, the lack of static defense at early expansion and the zerg cannot wall in problem all at the same time.
This would create a lot of problems with expansion denial and general creep harassment on short air distance maps such as scrap station.
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On September 20 2010 23:17 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 13:26 motbob wrote:On September 20 2010 13:20 Malminos wrote:
yeah if the patch changes are just what was in the situation report i'll probably abandon SC2 for civ5 which COICIDENTALLY comes out the same day as the patch... lol. Balance changes don't matter for people who aren't super-high diamond. You aren't super-high diamond. If you're not having fun playing zerg, then switch races or change games, but don't blame it on balance. EDIT: maybe you were talking about chat rooms etc., as opposed to balance. I really don't agree with this, I mean balance should be suited to help the top tier players, but obviously it's going to have an effect on everyone else. Balance I think does have an effect on even lower tier play.
the point he makes is only true for platinum or lower players, where every zerg player really has huuuge huuge leaks in his play, but in diamond 800 and above, zerg generally make really few mistakes, since you can't really get to that level by making big mistakes (as opposed to terran and toss) and players above 1.2k generally play close to perfect in what they do, that's why you'll find that no zerg above 1.2k really stays there for a long time, most will move on to 1.3k -1.4k relatively quickly since there's really not that much skill difference between 1k and 1.4k with zerg since they all play very very very good just to get to that level. so that (800+) is where balance really starts to matter for zerg since they play very good yet lose a lot to players who play a lot worse, and there are many situations where the zerg just couldn't have done anything muchbetter and still loses.
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On September 20 2010 21:09 ghermination wrote:
Let's get ready for Toss to be nerfed unnecessarily again!
I'm so ready to get 6/7/8 pooled endlessly on 2 player maps now because there's just no way to have a zeal out on, for example, steppes, even if you open 10 gate! that 5 seconds is crucial. That's the reason they buffed warpgates in the first place. Not to mention it's now going to be infinitely harder to sustain any attack in which you do less than steamroll your enemy, considering Zeal/Sentry is your main money sink vs Z and it'll be now be significantly slower. Zeal nerf doesn't seem like a big deal but it really really is.
So you're saying the window is so tight that 5 game seconds (about 3 real seconds) is the difference between holding off an attack and having no chance to defend it?
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EPT
