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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On September 16 2010 14:12 Garaman wrote: and how the fuck is a hidden expo in a long macro game fucking cheese? goddamn idiots It's cheese because it's non-standard to build an expansion there. If IdrA scouted it, Lotze would've lost. It was a big risk which paid off. | ||
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vonterribad
Australia50 Posts
I was gutted 3rd game though, idra was ahead after holding on after that nice timing attack, Lotze HAD to get a hidden and make it work. I honestly couldn't believe the lack of scouting to make sure you seal the deal, even sniped a pylon up there. ah well you win some you lose some. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On September 16 2010 13:39 Half wrote: Then thats a completely invalid conclusion. I even said earlier in my posts, PvT voidray is very different from PvZ voidray. PvT early voidray is not a cheese. Its slightly flimsy, but still a strong opener. It doesn't depend on your opponent having insufficient anti-air. Marines are the only terran ground unit (outside of thors...against voidrays...lolwut) that can attack air. They are very accessible, but have less range then voidrays. Terrans who simply get "enough" marines will not stop themselves from a heavy contain, supply depot snipes, and maybe even worker snipes. It allows protoss to control the game. If they change there build as a reaction, then you've already justified the cost of your void rays. A terran who techs to vikings will delay any potential super early game bioplay, while mass marines is very easily countered. Against Zerg, void ray play is a huge gamble. Proxy Void Ray Double robo is 100% gamble. This is because containing zerg to anything more then one base is pretty worthless. Zerg isn't going to play aggressive early on. By going voidrays, you give him free saturation on two bases, and voidrays simply cannot be effectively used against Hydralisks or mutas at all. The only time when Void Ray against Z isn't a cheese is if its accompanied by heavy early game pressure off two gates delaying lairtech. I agree, and that's kind of my point, but I still don't think it's coming across clearly. Now again sorry I have no way of watching the game so I am going on description but, this is how I see it. 3 gate -> robo -> double stargate without using either the robo or much of the gates is not a 'valid' transition. Other than scouting deficiencies it's entirely suboptimal. The robo does little to help the Protoss and instead is entirely decoy at a cost of 200/200. Generally same with the 3rd gate (2 gates + 2 stargates is pretty taxing on one base, and the 3rd gate shouldn't really make a difference in holding early aggression though maybe it does). On the other side Roach or Roach/ling is a good composition ZvP when your opponent appears to be teching and has a robo out. It's a strong composition that holds up where hydras might otherwise have trouble (aka melt to colossi). I don't know if Idra went for it, but it's generally expected that a spire would be going up as well when expecting robo (but the timing makes it's completion much later). Basically if IdrA had anything that shot up other than air units (or queens I guess) he'd be at a horrible disadvantage vs the push if it came out as robo/warpgate. It's not an easy point to get across, but what I'm getting at is in PvT, PvP, PvZ, or TvZ I don't think there's ever a situation that mimics this. Something where one player can have a reasonable composition, see a reasonable tech (which they have the composition for), and near instantly lose to hidden tech. PvT if you try to push out DTs after 3 gate, the Terran has scan as a backup and likely an engy bay down if they're going bio. Push out VRs after rush robo and first off you're likely to just get run over by bio, even if you don't the marines are available to potentially minimize damage. TvP if you try to push out banshees after a bunch of barracks, well that's pretty strong, but it only demands detection on the Protoss' part as well as the units they already have or already are capable of making. Likewise it's not 'wasted' tech because you can follow up with medivac/bio or banshee/bio so the barracks are still getting used. And Again you might also just fall to 4 gate pressure if you really try to cut back on use of the barracks you built. Sure if you manage to hide and mass 10 of some air unit you might win quickly, but that's a little unrealistic as it leaves you vulnerable for a long period of time vs relatively short window of opportunity for a quick 2 stargates and some vrs. Basically I think only vs Zerg can you waste minerals on buildings you don't intend to really use at relatively low risk while hiding tech that gives you a set of units that can instantly win the game vs a reasonable composition by the other player. It's the sorta thing you see a lot (hell it's basically what IdrA lost to in IEM). P/T can show zerg one thing show them it again and again, then it turns out to really be something else that will instant win the game because zerg doesn't really have a 'safe' army composition. | ||
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FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
But at the same time, metagame was his downfall. He should've played more standard in-terms of scouting and reacting. Sad to see him lose T_T, wanted him to win. I feel his style though, once the kinks get worked out, will dominate. idrA fighting~!! ^^. GoGo TLO!!!! | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Basically if IdrA had anything that shot up other than air units (or queens I guess) he'd be at a horrible disadvantage vs the push if it came out as robo/warpgate. I get what your saying. Your saying he adapted his strategy to simply slap on a stargate after making an initial decision to 2robo as a reaction against Z probably aiming to counter. Well, two things. First of all, that build itself isn't viable. Its just far too gas intensive, and you haven't even made units yet lol. Toss isn't designed to react to everything unlike zerg. You can't really apply pressure early with that build, and zerg can break you early. Even with VRs our, your still not going to be able to deal with mass hydra, the likely reaction. And delaying further for collosus, well Zerg can easily have 3 sat based by then lol. Second, thats not what happened. He was commited to fake robos from the getgo, and it was apparent by the way he played, his army composition, or lack of therof, etc. I feel his style though, once the kinks get worked out, will dominate. idrA fighting~!! ^^. Word. This is why I like Idra. I don't care too much about manner or character, I don't cheer for the baseball teams who have the most people I'd like to go drinking with. Right now, I'd say Idra is probably the foreign player with the biggest chance at doing anything significant in the Korea SC2 scene. Sad to see him fuck it up. Maybe next time? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
i blame the map, not the race... | ||
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hacpee
United States752 Posts
On September 16 2010 14:25 Logo wrote: I agree, and that's kind of my point, but I still don't think it's coming across clearly. Now again sorry I have no way of watching the game so I am going on description but, this is how I see it. 3 gate -> robo -> double stargate without using either the robo or much of the gates is not a 'valid' transition. Other than scouting deficiencies it's entirely suboptimal. The robo does little to help the Protoss and instead is entirely decoy at a cost of 200/200. Generally same with the 3rd gate (2 gates + 2 stargates is pretty taxing on one base, and the 3rd gate shouldn't really make a difference in holding early aggression though maybe it does). I agree with that. Gates, robos, and stargates need to be cheaper so this kind of stuff can happen more seamlessly and optimally. Right now, protoss has the hardest time switching units and strats because of the unit producing structure. Make it simpler and protoss can innovate more. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
oh screw it xD. tl;dr-gg idra bo3 r32. Try not to lose to cheese next time. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:33 Scorcher2k wrote: He deserved it imo... People are misunderstanding what happened.. Idra scouted what builds his opponent had been practicing and then practiced a counter build for that which the opponent was luckily tipped off about before he started playing him. Idra is the one that started snooping BOs, not the other guy. *edit because I feel like crap. That's still only half the story. People were snooping on behalf of Lotze as well. He faked the Colossus build by letting Idra scout the Robo.Basically Lotze's snooping was better than Idra's. Idra should have scouted more in both games. I don't really have a problem with people looking up other peoples build orders since that evens the playing field for the people that have their games casted or their replays available for download. | ||
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Redunzl
862 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:35 Tachion wrote: I hope Idra doesn't feel too bad, the only games he lost are the ones where scouting cost him the game(though not much could have been done in G2). In G3 Idra had him on the ropes pushed back into his nat and would have won right there if not for the hidden expo. That little flaw in his play is easily fixed, and the next time we see Idra in the GSL I'm sure he'll be stronger than ever  Idra fighting! | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
V you dumb fuck. NexGenius did not leak info. AND TWO, PEOPLE TELL OTHER PEOPLE THEIR OPPONENT'S LIKELY STRAT ALL THE TIME. Get a fucking clue on pro scenes before you comment. TL:DR of this thread should be, yes, an upset happened and some of you people are making teamliquid comments look like a fucking amateur joke section. There's already GOM forums for that shit. | ||
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leetchaos
United States395 Posts
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Lighioana
Norway466 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On September 16 2010 15:40 Lighioana wrote: Man, Idra should've just played normally as he ussualy does in the second game and would've won. In third, after he finaly defended should've just macroed better. Also, not having an overlord at every expansion is no excuse. Still, Idra FTW in Season 2! Second game, he just misread his opponent and was a bit complacent. Third game, he slipped up. It was definitely a good game and not at all the cheesefest (lawl, expanding and not getting it scouted = cheese) some of these raging fanboys are crying about. (You owe it to yourself to watch it) It pretty much looked like a close game of chicken until one of them slipped first. Though, I do think Lotze had it from his attack, it really threw off Idra's rhythm and if he just pressed earlier, he definitely had Idra barring some miracle. | ||
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men1kmati
United States165 Posts
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
Now I respect him as A class player. He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras. With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable. For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+. He definitely has rooms to improve. For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series. Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P. Enough said. | ||
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Pikachusc2
Canada91 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 16 2010 15:59 LuciferSC wrote: After watching the series, my view on Idra changed. Now I respect him as A class player. He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras. With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable. For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+. He definitely has rooms to improve. For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series. Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P. Enough said. thank you for enlightening us that Zerg players are idiot and are playing Zerg wrongly. You clearly have the clearance to state that | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
You just need to wake up a little bit. | ||
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