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On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote:
I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit.
Idra is a level above MadFrog and 'ret. There isn't even a comparison. Losing one series doesn't make you a worse player.
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On September 16 2010 10:25 Cell.cell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 10:21 crimsonsentinel wrote:
I'm a huge IdrA fan, but he got outplayed pure and simple. I hope he works on his scouting for the next GSL. This bugs me because both times he lost to hidden cheese. Yes, sneaking that bottom expo is a cheese, Idra could have demolished it for most of the game if he knew it was there. I agree he deserved the loss for not scouting properly, but don't say he got outplayed pure and simple. He didn't get outplayed, he got cheesed pure and simple...
On September 16 2010 10:31 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 10:30 TOloseGT wrote:
Sounds like a legit strategy to me. Anything that doesn't use hacking is a "legit strategy". Cheese by definition is "relies on your opponent not knowing about it at all and costs you the game if it fails".
No, cheese by definition is not simply tricking your opponent.
It infers that the player played in a cheap and illegitimate fashion.
Therefore, No, Idra did not lose to cheese and No, doing a sneak expo is not a cheese.
Don't try to take away the win from Lotz, he deserves it.
Realize by you guys bashing the series u're also taking it away from Idra as well, who played strong in the series and should be proud.
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On September 16 2010 16:07 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 15:59 LuciferSC wrote:
After watching the series, my view on Idra changed.
Now I respect him as A class player.
He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras.
With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable.
For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+.
He definitely has rooms to improve.
For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series.
Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P.
Enough said. thank you for enlightening us that Zerg players are idiot and are playing Zerg wrongly. You clearly have the clearance to state that
I apologize for speaking that blatantly, but I was referring to the whining Zerg players, not zerg players as a whole.
Perhaps I over-reacted, but getting really tired of players still whining even after watching a series like this where it proves that zerg is very powerful when played right.
Please don't say stuff like 'zerg only has a chance of winning IF they play a perfect game' after watching a series like this.
U're only insulting Idra by saying that.
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On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote:
I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit.
Ret is kinda mediocre right now, though.
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Idra is a level above MadFrog and 'ret. There isn't even a comparison. Losing one series doesn't make you a worse player.
The guy's famous for being bad mannered, not being a high level player.
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On September 16 2010 16:48 klauz619 wrote:
The guy's famous for being bad mannered, not being a high level player.
He's a Zerg superhero. His BM is so famous because it's coming from a high level player.
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On September 16 2010 16:17 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 16:07 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 16 2010 15:59 LuciferSC wrote:
After watching the series, my view on Idra changed.
Now I respect him as A class player.
He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras.
With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable.
For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+.
He definitely has rooms to improve.
For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series.
Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P.
Enough said. thank you for enlightening us that Zerg players are idiot and are playing Zerg wrongly. You clearly have the clearance to state that I apologize for speaking that blatantly, but I was referring to the whining Zerg players, not zerg players as a whole. Perhaps I over-reacted, but getting really tired of players still whining even after watching a series like this where it proves that zerg is very powerful when played right. Please don't say stuff like 'zerg only has a chance of winning IF they play a perfect game' after watching a series like this. U're only insulting Idra by saying that.
I dont think many complain about ZvP, or about this series. It's just an upset, which can happen in BW too every day.
However saying Zergs arent playing zerg right just has nothing to do with this, or anything really, as it makes no sense, coming from a random poster.
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On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote:
I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit. Lol this is just hilarious, same for the guy saying he's only famous for BM. Cool even said Idra is the best macro zerg right now, I think he has some experience on KR.
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On September 16 2010 17:55 Nexic wrote:
Lol this is just hilarious, same for the guy saying he's only famous for BM. Cool even said Idra is the best macro zerg right now, I think he has some experience on KR.
I am now confused about what is a good macro. As a zerg player,he even failed to scout an expo for a long time in mid game. A top zerg NEVER makes that kind of mistake. Call it cheese,call it luck,but forget the best macro zerg...
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On September 16 2010 20:42 bonedriven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 17:55 Nexic wrote:
Lol this is just hilarious, same for the guy saying he's only famous for BM. Cool even said Idra is the best macro zerg right now, I think he has some experience on KR. I am now confused about what is a good macro. As a zerg player,he even failed to scout an expo for a long time in mid game. A top zerg NEVER makes that kind of mistake. Call it cheese,call it luck,but forget the best macro zerg...
Um, what? Top players make silly mistakes too dude. Even the top pro players in SC1 would sometimes go entire games without scouting a hidden expo, that stuff happens.
Furthermore, a silly mistake about scouting doesn't have any impact on the strength of the macro. In fact that game showcased just how good it is, seeing as how he almost outmacroed Lotze at one point despite being basically a base down.
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Great games, kinda disappointed Idra lost, but still good games. I was screaming at my monitor for IdrA to scout the 6... he lost soooo much because of it.
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Best macro zerg, I'll give Idra credit for that.
That was some incredible drone timing and incredible number of roaches he made in all those games.
good Macro = high economy, high number of unit production
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I think a lot of people that continually jump the gun in regards to complaining about cheese should read David Sirlin's series of articles titled "Playing to Win," or at least this article in particular:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
It was written by a person with a history of fighting games, but it's applicable to many other things, and I think the general anti-cheese attitude in RTS is one of them.
This is another excerpt from his series, in a different article, "What Should Be Banned?" And it rings really true to me. Most of my high-level competitive gaming experiences have been with fighting games, and I always found it interesting that in today's world of data gathering and reactive balance patching by the developers, there still existed people that enjoyed playing games that received far less patching; fighting games in particular.
"The entire notion of radically patching and altering a game after its release may have many desirable properties, but it also has created an attitude among developers that they can release a somewhat buggy and imbalanced game and just patch it later. It is no surprise then that players of this type of game see differently than players of more “static” games on the issue of banning and altering a game. To players of my kind of games, banning is an ultra-extreme measure. To players of some internet games, the changing of game balance can be an everyday occurrence, as can the fixing of bugs.
The “constant patching” approach by developers also often leads to laziness on the part of the players; there’s less reward for trying as hard as you can within the given rules, because if you are successful, your tactic will just be patched into obsolescence anyway. You might be a footnote someplace, but you won’t still be winning. It gets worse in most massively multiplayer games, where you can actually be banned—permanently—for playing within the rules they created, but playing in a way they had not intended."
I'd liken cheese as the high risk/reward that applies to what Street Fighter players know as 'wakeup-super;' something you will very rarely see at the highest levels of play simply because doing so can leave you extremely vulnerable if you 'guess wrong.' But you still will see it because it keeps players honest and generates an effect whether or not it is successful. The opponent will be more wary of the wakeup super and perhaps not capitalize on aggression as much, just as in RTS the opponent will be more wary of the cheese and perhaps expend additional time or resources in trying to prevent the cheese (through scouting or other means).
Just like bluffing in certain games of chance is part of the game, so is cheese. Cheese and 'standard play' are both weapons in a player's arsenal, though of course statistically exceptional standard play will garner more successful results overall. But having AND using both can be even more effective in some situations. Some food for thought.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Thanks for the interview, interesting stuff.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Please don't cite Sirlin. Once you turn to stopping time with ancient asian techniques, you lose all credibility.
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FUCK! IDRA CHECK FOR NINJA EXPOS GOD DAMNIT
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On September 16 2010 15:36 leetchaos wrote:
Meta-gaming based off battle.net match history and training partners leaking info? No me gusta. I have a feeling even if Greg won he would still make some statement about how retarded match history is (he has before).
Idra was the one checking out people's match histories.
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This is mostly because of a key flaw in zerg. ive been beaten by banshee/voidray cheese so many times that ive made 3-4 queens many games when i didnt need too. ive gotten better at scouting but its still rather annoying. terran have marines and toss have stalkers. base units. hydra's are just garbage units plus they are tier2. until blizzard buffs thier speed off creep this will always be a problem.
the fact that it worked so well vs a top tier player so late in the game just goes on to prove my point regardless of scouting. imo that kind of play should have been game changing but def not game over. he should have lost his expansion or many workers. but losing the game is a little overboard.
even with 3 queens its u can still be killed by 3 void rays.
if this was bw's those roachs' would have been hydra's
i play high diamond all leagues as random.. take that for what its worth... not too much considering how easy it is to get there but still.
HOTS come soon pls
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Please guys... try and think at this from all PoVs
One could argue that since IdrA scouted Lotze's BO's and Lotze scouted that... all scouting in general got canceled out and so is completely irrelevant to the results of this match.
Tell me this: If there had been NO mention of BO scouting... would anyone be blowing a fit about it? Would people be blaming Blizzard, Lotze or IdrA for out-of-game cheesing?
No... people would say "Oh, IdrA got outplayed... shitty."
And in all reality... that is what happened. It sucked, definately, but Lotze is an extremely good player.
Game 2 was a cheese game, yeah... Lotze even faked other tech to throw off his scouting, so all-in-all it was a genius play if you ask me! Now the fact that Lotze knew exactly what IdrA was looking for, since IdrA had been snooping build orders is irrelevant. All it means is that IdrA took his eyes off the game of Starcraft, and played a different game... If he had been playing Starcraft instead of Poker... he may not have crumpled so easily.
Now Game 3 was different... This was NOT cheese, no matter what people say. Cheese is a strategy... a game plan... your entire game revolves around it. This hidden expansion was NOT a strategy, it was a tactic, and therefore was not cheese. While in the end, the game came down to that hidden expansion, that was only because it was not scouted and was the single fatal flaw in IdrA's play. Simply outplayed... Nothing to do with build order snooping, nothing to do with cheese, imbalance or anything like that. IdrA made an honest mistake that happens to the best of us from time to time... he forgot to scout the hidden expansion.
Other than that, he honestly played pretty damn well, and I hope to see him in the next GSL. Every player in the game has something they can work on... even in BroodWar. IdrA isn't perfect, Lotze isn't perfect, and next year the results could and will be different.
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On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote:
I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit.
I'm not an Idra fan.. but I can still admit it's painfully obvious that he's the best zerg player right now.. Madfrod and Ret are not even close to his skill level ATM.. and I love Ret & Madfrog
I think your the one who needs to "wakeup"
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EPT
