- How does it feel to be the first one to qualify to the round of 16? ▲ Honestly, because Idra is a world-class player, I couldn't guarantee I would get to the round of 16. Because I wasn't nervous, I was able to play my game and was able to qualify.
- You lost the first match to mass roaches. ▲ I played aggressively in the beginning and thought I was ahead. So I tried to control the center, but my army got caught. I think that's why I lost the game.
- You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
- You won with difficulty after continuous skirmishes. ▲ Because it was the most standard Zerg and Protoss skirmishes, it wasn't difficult. I had a few Colossus just playing around, so if I checked that, i would have won a lot easier.
- The hidden expansion at 6 o'clock was the key to victory on the 3rd match. ▲ It's not something I planned. I had a lot of minerals left over, so I built that expansion, and I think it ended up giving me quite a benefit. In the end, the 6 o clock expansion supported me quite a bit and luck followed me because of that.
- You might have changed your goals now that you've made it to the round of 16. ▲ I thought that if I beat Idra, I could at least get to round of 8. So, for today, I concentrated on just beating Idra. Now, my goal is to go as far as I can. I will have no regrets even if I lose. I've already exceeded my expectations.
- Is there anything else you want to say? ▲ Hyungjoo hyung and Joonhyun hyung, who are on my team, helped me quite a bit with practice. I will definitely buy them something tasty to eat later.
Well that sucks, was really hoping to see IdrA go further. I've always liked TLO, but never been crazy for him. His play really impressed me though, guess I'm going to jump on the bandwagon for him!!!
PS. He should find better practice partners that don't give up their builds . Or is it because people can check the build order starts... arghhh!
Brilliant mind games, really. Getting IdrA to go roaches the second game by doing a last minute twist of his Last Temple match history build orders. Double expanding to his normal third to hide his hidden expo on Metalopolis, causing IdrA to believe that he was ahead on bases when he was equal/behind.
Meh its like impossible to win as a zerg if you dont have a perfect game IMO. zerg cant win unless they know what protoss is doing exactly, hope patches come out soon and make idra happy. :D
I hope Idra doesn't feel too bad, the only games he lost are the ones where scouting cost him the game(though not much could have been done in G2). In G3 Idra had him on the ropes pushed back into his nat and would have won right there if not for the hidden expo. That little flaw in his play is easily fixed, and the next time we see Idra in the GSL I'm sure he'll be stronger than ever Idra fighting!
I'm pretty disappointed, especially since IdrA was one of the last few Zergs in the tournament. All my hope lies with Cool, Zenio, and Check to keep Zerg in the later brackets so I'll actually want to watch them.
IdrA gets such tunnel vision when dealing with his macro and he only has a 50-50 shot of actually going out and scouting for hiddens. I think it's pretty ironic that right before the VR's came on the second game, IdrA sent some lings over to find the Stargate. If only he had sent them a couple minutes earlier.
Idra's plays are so obvious. Anyone going against Idra already knows that he will never attack you early, that he will power drone and try to expand a bunch, it's like knowing exactly minute by minute the build order of you'r opponent.
I'm really disappointed he didn't get to variate his play a little bit to adapt as we saw all the people in the GSL are doing. Fast reaction and adapting you play to counter the opponents is the basics of a strategy game. Playing blindly like he did today isn't what a strategy game is.
Lotze just showed the intelligence and the brain needed to reach the top. Skill is important, but brainless mechanical playstyle will get owned by a smart opponent even if this opponent is less ''uber macro'' or what ever.
On September 16 2010 02:00 Anfere wrote: Idra's plays are so obvious. Anyone going against Idra already knows that he will never attack you early, that he will power drone and try to expand a bunch, it's like knowing exactly minute by minute the build order of you'r opponent.
I'm really disappointed he didn't get to variate his play a little bit to adapt as we saw all the people in the GSL are doing. Fast reaction and adapting you play to counter the opponents is the basics of a strategy game. Playing blindly like he did today isn't what a strategy game is.
Lotze just showed the intelligence and the brain needed to reach the top. Skill is important, but brainless mechanical playstyle will get owned by a smart opponent even if this opponent is less ''uber macro'' or what ever.
Brainless mechanical playstyle only works with terran I don't know why Idra thinks Zerg fits his playstyle
On September 16 2010 02:00 Anfere wrote: I'm really disappointed he didn't get to variate his play a little bit to adapt as we saw all the people in the GSL are doing. Fast reaction and adapting you play to counter the opponents is the basics of a strategy game. Playing blindly like he did today isn't what a strategy game is.
Idra's tactics and unit compositions have been varying a lot over the past month. Last time I heard about his ZvP, he teched straight from speedlings into hydras and then mutas/ultras. Now we're seeing burrowed speed roaches, drops, and roach/hydra unit mixes with corrupters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a consistent and strong macro player. I see no reason for him to change what is likely the strongest part of his zerg play by far.
People should play anticipating anything that may possibly be thrown at them. They should not depend on match history of the opponent for their strategy. That can either be a success, or as seen now, just as well bite you in the ass.
I feel sorry for Idra, because he was after TLO our last "Strongman" in the tourney, who could actually win this. Lotze did deserve this well, also I thought Idra got him in the last game. But Idra has pretty much a problem, when he thinks he knows what his opponent does he lacks to scout. On Metalopolis ie. After the big fight goin on until Lotzes base he seemed so confident, that he just ignored scouting. One of the most entertaining matches I've seen so far in the GSL
- You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
I like that idra got beat by someone that wasn't terran. No excuses now imo.
He just help being BM. I'm sure that if masq or Silver were protoss, he would of raged anyway, terran is just an excuse, he was bad mannered before SC2 or any terran imbalance.
Really hope TLO pulls through, it would feel really good for a non Korean to win the thing
I am sort of glad that Idra's b-net build order checking backfired. By the way Tasteless and Artosis were commentating about it, they made it sound like some horrible trick you could use to counter your opponent by knowing all his builds. I think it's much better that truly good players have to have many different builds and playstyles to be unpredictable AND good at the same time.
I was sad about game 3 though... seriously, put one zergling on all the expansion and burrow it, it costs like 150 minerals to cover the map
On September 16 2010 02:40 tomatriedes wrote: How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
I believe they said Idra was practicing with NEXGenius and Lotzes teammates saw on NEXGenius' profile that he had played idra a few times on LT with the exact build that he had planned to go for.
Im divided on this, I liked idra in the GSL just because i wanted to see some foreigners get farther. On the other hand, I dont like idra and think he gets more credit then he deserves so Im normally happy when he loses.
Guess we gotta just root for TLO and hope next season goes better for westerners
- You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
Artosis explained this: IdrA was studying the build orders of Lotze and this probably was circulated and so Lotze kinda "tricked" IdrA in the second game. He showed the same build order as in game 1 and secretly built that Stargate and three Void Rays. That gave him an instant win because IdrA wasnt prepared.
According to Tasteless and Artosis, IdrA had been checking battle.net profiles to find out what builds people had been using on different maps and preparing accordingly. Lotze found out about this through his own teammates. On the first game, Lotze went for his anticipated play for the map and IdrA came out with the appropriate counter and the win. In the second game, Lotze acknowledged that he was being preempted and got him back by pretending to do his usual play and hiding a Stargate on the other side of the map (which he had discussed with CheckPrime earlier that day).
Far as I could tell, the 3rd game was just pure awesome.
On September 16 2010 02:40 tomatriedes wrote: How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
I believe they said Idra was practicing with NEXGenius and Lotzes teammates saw on NEXGenius' profile that he had played idra a few times on LT with the exact build that he had planned to go for.
Gotta keep that shit under wraps. It cost him the tourney. Well that and lack of scouting.
Lotze seems like a very nice guy, and at least he didn't snipe Idra in some Davit style. GL to him in the tourney. I feel very bad for Idra, and to be honest watched the rest of the games without as much joy as usual. But there will be some more GSLs, and next year full leagues that reward consistent players like Idra. (also Genius, Junwi and all the other knocked out stars in Bo3s and Bo1s)
Just finished watching this series. Can't believe IdrA is out so early!! Honestly, I'm not at all in favor of this looking up the opponents build through b.net. It creates these unnecessary mind games which can ultimately backfire.
But anyways, they were great games, with the third being the best.
On September 16 2010 01:33 zerg4hire wrote: Meh its like impossible to win as a zerg if you dont have a perfect game IMO. zerg cant win unless they know what protoss is doing exactly, hope patches come out soon and make idra happy. :D
Until blizzard do something about it, that's just how it's going to be.
I think what is good is a lot of the issues the community has been talking about are now starting to manifest themselves. Hopefully blizzard are taking notes and can do something to sort out the little bits and pieces.
On September 16 2010 02:40 tomatriedes wrote: How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
I believe they said Idra was practicing with NEXGenius and Lotzes teammates saw on NEXGenius' profile that he had played idra a few times on LT with the exact build that he had planned to go for.
On September 16 2010 02:15 Sqq wrote: I hate when people use the term metagame.
The thing is this is the exact correct use of metagame, these kinds of things are why there is a word metagame -> to describe this using information that's outside the boundaries of 1 match and controlling what information you provide.
Also, Korea has some *really* amazing Protoss players, and I wouldn't be surprised to see any of them beat out the Terran hordes to win this whole thing
On September 16 2010 02:40 tomatriedes wrote: How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
I believe they said Idra was practicing with NEXGenius and Lotzes teammates saw on NEXGenius' profile that he had played idra a few times on LT with the exact build that he had planned to go for.
Wow, that sucks for Idra- pretty unlucky.
He deserved it imo... People are misunderstanding what happened.. Idra scouted what builds his opponent had been practicing and then practiced a counter build for that which the opponent was luckily tipped off about before he started playing him. Idra is the one that started snooping BOs, not the other guy.
He's a pretty good player, don't get me wrong... but there seem to be much better zergs out there.
I mean, he's certainly entertaining to watch with all the BM and stuff, but players like Dimaga and Sheth seem to be having better results backing them up so far, although it's still way too early to tell which one is really the best.
IdrAs keeps getting owned by no-names, it's a big let down to me.
On September 16 2010 03:08 Deadlyfish wrote: So the "best" foreign player gets beat by some korean i've never even heard of before now? Looks like sc2 is going to be dominated by koreans again
Atleast IdrA didnt lose to Terran, or we would have never heard the end of it :D
Posts like this make me want to bash my head into a wall. Let's break it down. 1)Just because you've never heard of a player, doesn't mean he isn't good. 2)ZvP is IdrA's worst matchup. 3)The GSL was 93.75% Koreans, Foreigners always had a small chance to win.
I wonder how Lotze found out Idra was practicing vs. his build. Did he look at Idra's match-list, then look at Idra's opponents' build orders and see that they were the same as his own? Or did someone rat out Idra? Either way, Lotze wins the mind game.
Hey, Maybe Artosis will do an interview and IdrA and him can complain about protoss instead of terran for once?
Really sucks that IdrA lost that.. Reasons why blizzard should get rid of match history and the builds. Every time someone enters a tournament they are going to need like 4 accounts to prevent shit like this.
On September 16 2010 03:08 Deadlyfish wrote: So the "best" foreign player gets beat by some korean i've never even heard of before now? Looks like sc2 is going to be dominated by koreans again
Atleast IdrA didnt lose to Terran, or we would have never heard the end of it :D
Because the Korean Protoss checked on NEXGenius' profile and seen what build IdrA was doing means that Koreans will dominate Starcraft II? Lot's of logic.
On September 16 2010 03:56 Keula wrote: NOOOOOOOO Idra is out ... Only 1 Zerg left oh the drama..
This
Mind games and counter-mind-games oh my. And without LAN-only play to practice somewhere that your opponents can't scout your profile and see your openings, there's nowhere to hide, this is disturbing and could be really bad for the SC2 scene. (HINT BLIZZARD HINT HINT)
I'm really sad we're down to 1 foreigner and pretty few zergs left, though.
<i>Honestly, I'm not at all in favor of this looking up the opponents build through b.net.</i>
Idra is the one who was doing this
<i>It creates these unnecessary mind games which can ultimately backfire. </i>
Yea and it backfired like you said, snooping around ended up biting him in the ass.
<i>Really sucks that IdrA lost that.. Reasons why blizzard should get rid of match history and the builds. Every time someone enters a tournament they are going to need like 4 accounts to prevent shit like this.</i>
So its Blizzards fault that IDRA HIMSELF went around and tried to figure Lotze's build, then when it backfired, instead of praising Lotze for outsmarting him you blame Blizzard for allowing something Idra himself tried to use to his advantage?
Look i get alot of people here want Idra or TLO to go really far, and everyone is trying to stir up some sort of controversy here becuase they are upset he got knocked out, but there is really no controversy, he got outplayed in the third game.
Hey, Maybe Artosis will do an interview and IdrA and him can complain about protoss instead of terran for once?
Really sucks that IdrA lost that.. Reasons why blizzard should get rid of match history and the builds. Every time someone enters a tournament they are going to need like 4 accounts to prevent shit like this.
um, IdrA is the one starting to look at his oponents BO and got hit on the nose with it. Keep the thing in game and dont try and be clever with scouting outside of the game if this things make you lose.
Well played Lotze you exploited IdrA's main weakness: his stubborness of expecting how his opponent should play rather than preparing for all possibilities the best he can.
Please IdrA stop being so damn stubborn and scout more! I was really cheering for IdrA that game, guy deserves something for all that hardwork he's been doing in Korea these last few years.
IdrA got outsmarted. It's disappointing to see him lose, but it had nothing to do with cheesiness, unethical play, or game balance. It's a strategy game: IdrA threw rock-rock and it met with scissors-paper. In game 3, Lotzse just plain outplayed him.
a well deserved win.. one of the great games on GSL.. without Milkis what are we to doooo.. i always read his starcraft reports/updates both broodwar and sc2. cheers.. thanks again.
People are posting with no actual understanding of the situation it seems. It was pretty much explained to death by MANY people already.
Idra started practicing against Lotze's usual build order with NexGenius. (NORMAL SCENARIO. Pros AND Semi Pros do this ALL THE TIME in Korea. Notice that EVERY interview, winners in BW said "Yeah so and so helped me practice against this guy who's known for this.") Yes match history probably helped as well but it's being blown out of proportion here.
Lotze realizes Idra is practicing against his build order through his own teammates. He thinks "oh well, I can still use it anyway" and loses game one because Idra's build counters his. (Which I notice almost no one's making a big deal even though THIS IS THE GAME people should be bitching about if they're going to talk about match history etc) Game two, he realizes his ace in the hole build is clearly not going to work and alters it to counter Idra's counter. Idra doesn't adapt correctly. IT HAPPENS. Game three, they both play fairly standard, Idra slips up first and loses the game. NOT SOME ABNORMAL OMG scenario.
IMO, Match history scouting isn't a big deal! Idra was smart for actually looking into his opponent's build history to identify a pattern. Heck, this isn't some new shit if some of you fools followed brood war. Players check out what other players are doing ALL the time in OSL/MSL. You almost always hear something like "I noticed Jaedong did this build versus Light so I tried to adapt against it". Even without match history, there's still replays, etc. Lotze just did the smart thing AND HAD A BACKUP PLAN! GEE, LET'S PITCHFORK MOB HIM BECAUSE HE WAS ACTUALLY A GOOD PLAYER AND PROVIDED SOME GREAT GAMES. WHAT A ATROCITY.
Probably, Artosis/Tasteless is to be blamed for this. I wouldn't be surprised if they were telling everybody Idra's preparations before the match, or if they had told some ppl who then leaked it out to the Koreans. Had it been kept under secrecy and close wraps, Idra would've won 2-0
game 2 lotze made one unit that would counter everything he has by a successful mind play. fuckin brilliant strategy. game 3 outplayed. was the usual macro game that idra is known to be good at, and yet still lost.
and for people that are saying koreans > foreigners, yes it seems this way. the players of this tournament was dominantly koreans, but the foreigners that participated were considered our cream of the crops. and hands down, idra was the one that everyone thought had the best chance of winning. he gets knocked out in ro32 by a korean player that is not considered as top contenders of gsl.
still rooting for you idra, there is always another gsl
Wether or not Idra started the snooping around for BO, this just showed how bad thins matchlist thing is for tournaments While Lotze really greatloy outplayed Idra in game 2 we'll nenver know what would have happened if they both played the game without any outside factor affecting the game.
Sad to see IdrA go, but grats Lotze, really well played and game 3 was amazing.
On September 16 2010 01:26 Milkis wrote: - You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
IdrA really shouldn't have gone around advertising that he was looking at Lotze build order history.
Just curious, can we get GSL translated replays like they do in proleague :O, I am interested in what they are saying (even though artosis`awkward translated interviews are amusing)
On September 16 2010 01:28 tbrown47 wrote: Congratulations Lotze, now like 90% of the TL population loves you -.-
Fixed.
Milkis, you are like our direct link to the korean news, we should build a huge statue in your honor.
Also, I'm glad to see the koreans taking over. My only exception is TLO because he is amazing.
I think you being glad that the Koreans are taking over is the exception to the rule. Most of us would probably like to see a few non-Koreans.
Next season!
Uh, that's possible but there are some of us westerners who aren't xenophobic and have no problem supporting the better players even if they happen to be Korean.
On September 16 2010 04:36 KissBlade wrote: People are posting with no actual understanding of the situation it seems. It was pretty much explained to death by MANY people already.
Idra started practicing against Lotze's usual build order with NexGenius. (NORMAL SCENARIO. Pros AND Semi Pros do this ALL THE TIME in Korea. Notice that EVERY interview, winners in BW said "Yeah so and so helped me practice against this guy who's known for this.") Yes match history probably helped as well but it's being blown out of proportion here.
Lotze realizes Idra is practicing against his build order through his own teammates. He thinks "oh well, I can still use it anyway" and loses game one because Idra's build counters his. (Which I notice almost no one's making a big deal even though THIS IS THE GAME people should be bitching about if they're going to talk about match history etc) Game two, he realizes his ace in the hole build is clearly not going to work and alters it to counter Idra's counter. Idra doesn't adapt correctly. IT HAPPENS. Game three, they both play fairly standard, Idra slips up first and loses the game. NOT SOME ABNORMAL OMG scenario.
IMO, Match history scouting isn't a big deal! Idra was smart for actually looking into his opponent's build history to identify a pattern. Heck, this isn't some new shit if some of you fools followed brood war. Players check out what other players are doing ALL the time in OSL/MSL. You almost always hear something like "I noticed Jaedong did this build versus Light so I tried to adapt against it". Even without match history, there's still replays, etc. Lotze just did the smart thing AND HAD A BACKUP PLAN! GEE, LET'S PITCHFORK MOB HIM BECAUSE HE WAS ACTUALLY A GOOD PLAYER AND PROVIDED SOME GREAT GAMES. WHAT A ATROCITY.
On September 16 2010 04:19 McFoo wrote: Well played Lotze you exploited IdrA's main weakness: his stubborness of expecting how his opponent should play rather than preparing for all possibilities the best he can.
Please IdrA stop being so damn stubborn and scout more! I was really cheering for IdrA that game, guy deserves something for all that hardwork he's been doing in Korea these last few years.
Also, I kind of have to agree with some of the other people. Idra should know to scout for all hidden expansions, regardless of opponent or how well he thinks he knows what the opponent is doing. Lotze did a proxy pylon warp in attack, Idra should have scouted for other proxy pylons which may have been for warp harass anyway(6oclock). Furthermore, this seems to be a recurring theme with Idra, I understand he is amazing as a player, but if you play a strategy game you cant solely rely on your mechanics to win all your games, there clearly are other aspects of the game. Very well played from Lotze, but I was hoping Idra would go further.
On September 16 2010 05:09 Geo.Rion wrote: "I had a lot of minerals left over, so I built that expansion, and I think it ended up giving me quite a benefit."
YOU THINK?? Oh really? Yeah, i think so too
You shouldn't really get too stuck on single words when it's translated like that.
Smart games from Lotze. I'm sad to see Idra out, but that was some high-class entertainment! Complete with a Defense, a Ruse, and an Epic Finale. I was laughing so hard when Artosis was mad fanboy "Come on IDRA! I don't care what anyone thinks! I'm biased!" Hahahah. Great broadcast.
- Is there anything else you want to say? ▲ Hyungjoo hyung and Joonhyun hyung, who are on my team, helped me quite a bit with practice. I will definitely buy them something tasty to eat later.
He is totally sounding like a BW pro here. Always with the "I will buy them something tasty..."
IMO, Match history scouting isn't a big deal! Idra was smart for actually looking into his opponent's build history to identify a pattern.
If Idra was actually smart then he would have practiced against those builds on a different account.
wtf ... what would that have done? Lotze didn't look at Idra's match history, it was Idra looking at Lotze's which Lotze only found out this morning and it didn't even really matter because he ended up using the same build anyway game 1! Second of all, opponent's preferred builds get revealed VERY OFTEN if you ever followed competitive BW.
Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
so dumb. wasn't anything imba compared to Maka's game where maka abused all the things that will be getting nerfed in the coming patch. + Show Spoiler +
1st game army clash, tanks lolwtf on zerg's army. 2nd game lolreapers
not trying to bring up the whole terran imba thing, just saying
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
....so if you noticed your unit that was sent into an area does not end up in that area, would you not be suspicious as well?
On September 16 2010 01:28 tbrown47 wrote: Congratulations Lotze, now like 90% of the TL population loves you -.-
Fixed.
Milkis, you are like our direct link to the korean news, we should build a huge statue in your honor.
Also, I'm glad to see the koreans taking over. My only exception is TLO because he is amazing.
I think you being glad that the Koreans are taking over is the exception to the rule. Most of us would probably like to see a few non-Koreans.
Next season!
Uh, that's possible but there are some of us westerners who aren't xenophobic and have no problem supporting the better players even if they happen to be Korean.
All he said was he would "...like to see a few non-Koreans." How do you have a problem with that? Chill, dude. Let him be patriotic in a rest-of-the-world sense.
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
Or he could have just realized that moving into the wall means that something is blocking it and up there, like a logical person? IdrA lost. Blaming Blizzard really won't change that as it wasn't Blizzard's fault that IdrA lost.
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
....so if you noticed your unit that was sent into an area does not end up in that area, would you not be suspicious as well?
Yes in the late game of his last match he should be wondering why his lings didnt get up the ramp rather than the other unimportant stuff going on
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
....so if you noticed your unit that was sent into an area does not end up in that area, would you not be suspicious as well?
Yes in the late game of his last match he should be wondering why his lings didnt get up the ramp rather than the other unimportant stuff going on
"Why didn't my zergling make it up the ramp? What is the only possible reason that my unit did not go into an area on the map. Oh! It must be blocked! Let me take one action to throw an overlord into that area like most high level zergs would."
Really, discovering opponent expansions is an unimportant thing?
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
....so if you noticed your unit that was sent into an area does not end up in that area, would you not be suspicious as well?
Yes in the late game of his last match he should be wondering why his lings didnt get up the ramp rather than the other unimportant stuff going on
He should have had overlords at all expansions by that point in the game anyway instead of clumped in a giant herd in the center, ling scouts were irrelevant to Idra's terrible scouting.
so dumb. wasn't anything imba compared to Maka's game where maka abused all the things that will be getting nerfed in the coming patch. + Show Spoiler +
1st game army clash, tanks lolwtf on zerg's army. 2nd game lolreapers
not trying to bring up the whole terran imba thing, just saying
the "nerf" isn't going to do much of anything, though. At least for zerg.
You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
Anyone else ready this and find it quite BM how idra was prepping with a player for the match and it seems the player contacted this Lotza about it????
You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
Anyone else ready this and find it quite BM how idra was prepping with a player for the match and it seems the player contacted this Lotza about it????
Idra and Lotze added each other as friends, so they could see each other's match histories. That's probably how he knew.
You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
Anyone else ready this and find it quite BM how idra was prepping with a player for the match and it seems the player contacted this Lotza about it????
me, I'd definitely want to hear more about that. I'm afraid same thing may sooner or later happen in case of TLAF practicing with OGS but hopefully I'm wrong.
That was a great series. Great playing on both sides as well as the added drama from the Build order-spying narrative was like a mini theme on its own haha. Game 3 was amazing, people tend to remember the expo, but it was a super close back and forth game with good micro and decisions by both players.
On September 16 2010 01:29 Milkis wrote: PS: If I make some weird typos, especially about Bread, then I blame the fact that I was watching a kdrama while translating this.
You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
Anyone else ready this and find it quite BM how idra was prepping with a player for the match and it seems the player contacted this Lotza about it????
Don't make up stupid shit like that, asshole. Genius did not contact anyone about Idra's strats.
seems like a really nice guy, I'm super glad he won tbh
hopefully that 1.1 patch comes up before the next GOM so people stop complaining about Zerg, in fact I almost hope they overnerf Terran and overbuff Zerg just to see how the community reacts when the tables are turned
On September 16 2010 07:09 Fa1nT wrote: Only protoss and terrans are allowed to do fakes and mind games, unfortunately...
clearly you didn't watch the TvZ from a couple days ago
IMO, Match history scouting isn't a big deal! Idra was smart for actually looking into his opponent's build history to identify a pattern.
If Idra was actually smart then he would have practiced against those builds on a different account.
wtf ... what would that have done? Lotze didn't look at Idra's match history, it was Idra looking at Lotze's which Lotze only found out this morning and it didn't even really matter because he ended up using the same build anyway game 1! Second of all, opponent's preferred builds get revealed VERY OFTEN if you ever followed competitive BW.
My point is that Lotze found out about Idra practicing against his build orders so he changed his strat in game 2 while making it look like he was going with his original BO that Idra had practiced against. This wouldn't have happened if Idra would have practiced on a different account because Lotze's teammates wouldn't have been able to search Idra's opponent's match history/build orders. Idra thought he was clever to search his opponent's match history for builds, but he actually got out-smarted by Lotze's team that was able to uncover that Idra had been practicing vs. Lotze's build and warned Lotze.
The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
Seriously, that battle.net function is so fucking gay :/.
Uh, that's possible but there are some of us westerners who aren't xenophobic and have no problem supporting the better players even if they happen to be Korean.
What is wrong with you? He was replying to a post that specifically stated a racial preference for the "Starcraft 2 master race" by saying "Not everyone wants that).
So its Blizzards fault that IDRA HIMSELF went around and tried to figure Lotze's build, then when it backfired, instead of praising Lotze for outsmarting him you blame Blizzard for allowing something Idra himself tried to use to his advantage?
lolwut? Nobody is blaming this guy for metagaming like a pro within the given ruleset. We're saying its stupid that you can metagame like this.
On September 16 2010 05:35 Damnesiac wrote: Just for the record, IdrA actually did try to scout the 7 o'clock but he blocked the ramp with a stalker meaning all units heading into the base would ignore the ramp and walk into a wall. Good job Blizzard defeats IdrA yet again.
....so if you noticed your unit that was sent into an area does not end up in that area, would you not be suspicious as well?
Yes in the late game of his last match he should be wondering why his lings didnt get up the ramp rather than the other unimportant stuff going on
Yeah, because...you know...denying expos isn't important or anything.
I was so sad to see IdrA go I really can't figure out why he never scouted more during that 3rd game. I mean in the 2nd game it was a bit more forgivable, but in a drawn-out, macro game? He should have been trying to deny those expansions way more than he did. I guess now all my rooting is going for TLO, I hope he can still perform well while he's sick :-/
Haha - I liked that "Torch'd" is the new slang for getting tricked into not expecting Void Rays XD.
I have to say though - the 2nd game felt a bit unfair to me. I mean, Idra's gamesense is usually so scary-good, and he can usually know exactly what his opponent's doing based on the barest of scouting information. Despite getting an Overlord into Lotze's base, he STILL couldn't tell that Lotze should have had more stuff based on the duration of the game =/. He didn't even build extra Queens just to be safe, due to being suspicious at the lack of stuff Lotze had.
If Idra isn't good enough to tell that Protoss is proxying somewhere based on a sacrificial Overlord's info, what chance do lesser-skilled players have? =/
The 3rd game was definitely Idra getting straight-up outplayed, though. I think it would have been a different result if he had spotted that hidden expo, but unfortunately, that was not to be .
On September 16 2010 01:28 tbrown47 wrote: Congratulations Lotze, now like 90% of the TL population loves you -.-
Fixed.
Milkis, you are like our direct link to the korean news, we should build a huge statue in your honor.
Also, I'm glad to see the koreans taking over. My only exception is TLO because he is amazing.
I think you being glad that the Koreans are taking over is the exception to the rule. Most of us would probably like to see a few non-Koreans.
Next season!
Uh, that's possible but there are some of us westerners who aren't xenophobic and have no problem supporting the better players even if they happen to be Korean.
lol xenophobic? It's just that having all Koreans is kind of boring and it also makes the whole thing cut off from foreigners when there are no foreigners playing.
- You used a hidden Void Ray strategy the second game. ▲ I originally prepared a different build. I was going to do a fast Colossus followed by an all-in. However, I learned early this morning Idra was preparing against my build order and preparing against another team's Protoss players. The Protoss player was using a build I was going to use. So I saw that with Hyungjoo Hyung, and so I quickly adjusted my build.
this is so stupid. -.-;;
hopefully retarded stuff like this makes blizz re-think there 'allow everyone to see match history' crap.
On September 16 2010 01:28 tbrown47 wrote: Congratulations Lotze, now like 90% of the TL population loves you -.-
Fixed.
Milkis, you are like our direct link to the korean news, we should build a huge statue in your honor.
Also, I'm glad to see the koreans taking over. My only exception is TLO because he is amazing.
I think you being glad that the Koreans are taking over is the exception to the rule. Most of us would probably like to see a few non-Koreans.
Next season!
Uh, that's possible but there are some of us westerners who aren't xenophobic and have no problem supporting the better players even if they happen to be Korean.
lol xenophobic? It's just that having all Koreans is kind of boring and it also makes the whole thing cut off from foreigners when there are no foreigners playing.
Disagree. People enjoy watching the soccer World Cup even if their team never gets to (and never has got to - poor Japan QQ) the finals or even close to it. You watch for the quality of the games. Of course it's exciting for Westerners if TLO does well, but that's not because he's European, it's because he's an outsider/the underdog aura and because of (deserved) reputation for the quality of the SC/BW game in Korea.
It might sound harsh and all but Idra is just way to bm and childish in general to get any sympathy from my side, in fact I have to admit I'm quite happy he was eliminated.
Gotta love TLO though hope he wins the whole thing.
On September 16 2010 09:42 Ordained wrote: Now I am hoping for Maru and Lotze to get knocked out for knocking out my 2 favorite Zergs.
On September 16 2010 07:37 Tdelamay wrote: I'm a bit worried about the zerg representation now.
5 left and dwindling. CHECK FIGHTING!!
There are only 4 left, another Zerg got terranrolled a few hours later.
I really don't think check or cool will do any better than IdrA, but we will see.
Dang, i miscounted. Thanks for the correction man. This doesnt show much about balance but it cant be good for the sport. I already dont want to watch any more GSL until next season because most of my race got kicked out and I cant bring myself to root for a Terran, sorry TLO.
"HEY MY OPPONENT IS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AND I KNEW HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THAT SO I DID EXACTLY WHAT BEATS WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO BUT HE'S DUMB AND DIDN'T DO WHAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO COUNTER EASILY."
haha and thats almost 2 years ago, and it just happend again lololol.
anybody else realize a resemblance in Idras play? remember his series vs F91 on BW TL event, liquibition or whatever? how he couldn't adapt to his opponents nonstandard play? didn't scout enough? just assumed what the other guy was going all the time?
"HEY MY OPPONENT IS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS BECAUSE THATS WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO AND I KNEW HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THAT SO I DID EXACTLY WHAT BEATS WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO BUT HE'S DUMB AND DIDN'T DO WHAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO COUNTER EASILY."
haha and thats almost 2 years ago, and it just happend again lololol.
gotta love idra and his stubbornness. dont care a white for his BM
On September 16 2010 09:51 Garaman wrote: anybody else realize a resemblance in Idras play? remember his series vs F91 on BW TL event, liquibition or whatever? how he couldn't adapt to his opponents nonstandard play? didn't scout enough? just assumed what the other guy was going all the time?
As i have always said, he is predictable becuse he does not adapt. He has his build and if someone dont play after the ritualistic rules the "top" non koreans seem to play after he gets destroyed.
Man, Idra tunnel visioned so hard on that 3rd match. After that epic push into lotze's base, Idra just left his roaches/broodlords to die to two void rays, and continued producing roaches until he had nothing left, and THEN got his hydras in there. All of his overlords were bunched up in the middle over his gold, and obviously, his epic blunder not scouting the secret third until his fifth base was one of the only ones being mined out...and mysteriously: zealots from no where?
Lotze is definitely good, I just feel like it was more or less Idra just throwing the game in his confidence that caused the upset.
LOL, that exact post could have been made about today's games. It's sad that in all this time Idra still lacks game sense, which is the reason he will never be the best. Great mechanics will only get you so far. This tournament was his best opportunity to win something, to win anything. Better players are going to join next season, and every season after that...players that actually have game sense in addition to great mechanics.
LOL, that exact post could have been made about today's games. It's sad that in all this time Idra still lacks game sense, which is the reason he will never be the best. Great mechanics will only get you so far. This tournament was his best opportunity to win something, to win anything. Better players are going to join next season, and every season after that...players that actually have game sense in addition to great mechanics.
Well, conceptually, yes, but I think each scenario played out quite differently.
And this time Idra appears to be taking it like a man I guess. Really, Reks post wasn't dissing his skill, it was dissing his manner.
I would have thought that foreigners could compete for at least a couple of months at the launch of SC2.
Maybe TLO proves me right. Maybe?
I predict the gap skill to grow over time and koreans to be as dominant as in BW in a year or so.
Really, this match doesn't really show the skill gap. Man, Idra needs to stop Tilting.
LOL, that exact post could have been made about today's games. It's sad that in all this time Idra still lacks game sense, which is the reason he will never be the best. Great mechanics will only get you so far. This tournament was his best opportunity to win something, to win anything. Better players are going to join next season, and every season after that...players that actually have game sense in addition to great mechanics.
Well, conceptually, yes, but I think each scenario played out quite differently.
And this time Idra appears to be taking it like a man I guess. Really, Reks post wasn't dissing his skill, it was dissing his manner.
oh'rly?
No one gives a fuck whos better between you and F91. You both fucking blow as far as anyone is concerned so don't worry about that.
LOL, that exact post could have been made about today's games. It's sad that in all this time Idra still lacks game sense, which is the reason he will never be the best. Great mechanics will only get you so far. This tournament was his best opportunity to win something, to win anything. Better players are going to join next season, and every season after that...players that actually have game sense in addition to great mechanics.
Well, conceptually, yes, but I think each scenario played out quite differently.
And this time Idra appears to be taking it like a man I guess. Really, Reks post wasn't dissing his skill, it was dissing his manner.
oh'rly?
No one gives a fuck whos better between you and F91. You both fucking blow as far as anyone is concerned so don't worry about that.
If that's what you got from Rekruls post, then your reading ability leaves much to be desired.
Perhaps reading sentences as part of a larger structure, say, paragraphs, (what a neat idea huh?) might be towards your benefit.
All I'm asking of you, Idra, is to show some respect. Show some respect to the community, your team, the opponent that just raped you, and most importantly yourself by just frankly admitting to the fact that he outplayed you in the series and raped you straight up. No one is judging you saying F91 >>> you. F91 certainly was >>>> you that day and it was not due to luck. It was because he raped you. No one gives a fuck whos better between you and F91. You both fucking blow as far as anyone is concerned so don't worry about that.
LOL, that exact post could have been made about today's games. It's sad that in all this time Idra still lacks game sense, which is the reason he will never be the best. Great mechanics will only get you so far. This tournament was his best opportunity to win something, to win anything. Better players are going to join next season, and every season after that...players that actually have game sense in addition to great mechanics.
Well, conceptually, yes, but I think each scenario played out quite differently.
And this time Idra appears to be taking it like a man I guess. Really, Reks post wasn't dissing his skill, it was dissing his manner.
oh'rly?
No one gives a fuck whos better between you and F91. You both fucking blow as far as anyone is concerned so don't worry about that.
If that's what you got from Rekruls post, then your reading ability leaves much to be desired.
Perhaps reading sentences as part of a larger structure. Say, paragraphs, (what a neat idea huh?) might be towards your benefit.
I read it all and i see he is bashing IdrA's manners but the entire post basicly say "IdrA you suck go home"
On September 16 2010 10:03 Half wrote: And this time Idra appears to be taking it like a man I guess. Really, Reks post wasn't dissing his skill, it was dissing his manner.
He supressed his rage heavily after the game. He just stormed out without talking to anyone. Tasteless got out of the seat asap and couldn't find him. I only saw him storming out after coming from the toilets ...
LOL, that exact post could have been made about today's games. It's sad that in all this time Idra still lacks game sense, which is the reason he will never be the best. Great mechanics will only get you so far. This tournament was his best opportunity to win something, to win anything. Better players are going to join next season, and every season after that...players that actually have game sense in addition to great mechanics.
I totally love that thread every time I read it
Grats to Lotze, he straight up outplayed IdrA and deserved to win.
IdrA needs to bring something better to the table than what he had today if he wants to compete with the best. He looks more overrated every time I see him.
On September 16 2010 10:03 Half wrote: And this time Idra appears to be taking it like a man I guess. Really, Reks post wasn't dissing his skill, it was dissing his manner.
He supressed his rage heavily after the game. He just stormed out without talking to anyone. Tasteless got out of the seat asap and couldn't find him. I only saw him storming out after coming from the toilets ...
He was REALLY pissed.
Yeah, I'm sure he was lol. Who wouldn't be? Theres a difference between being pissed and raging on tl about it like a whining scrubby kid.
On September 16 2010 10:21 crimsonsentinel wrote: I'm a huge IdrA fan, but he got outplayed pure and simple. I hope he works on his scouting for the next GSL.
This bugs me because both times he lost to hidden cheese. Yes, sneaking that bottom expo is a cheese, Idra could have demolished it for most of the game if he knew it was there. I agree he deserved the loss for not scouting properly, but don't say he got outplayed pure and simple. He didn't get outplayed, he got cheesed pure and simple...
On September 16 2010 10:21 crimsonsentinel wrote: I'm a huge IdrA fan, but he got outplayed pure and simple. I hope he works on his scouting for the next GSL.
This bugs me because both times he lost to hidden cheese. Yes, sneaking that bottom expo is a cheese, Idra could have demolished it for most of the game if he knew it was there. I agree he deserved the loss for not scouting properly, but don't say he got outplayed pure and simple. He didn't get outplayed, he got cheesed pure and simple...
Sarcasm?
Maybe they need to put in a game sound when someone expands so IdrA will know about it? Something like the Nydus Worm thing so all players can hear it.
Maybe they need to put in a game sound when someone expands so IdrA will know about it? Something like the Nydus Worm thing so all players can hear it.
Are you saying double gate robo fake into stargate and fast hidden expo is anything but cheese?
On September 16 2010 10:30 TOloseGT wrote: Sounds like a legit strategy to me.
Anything that doesn't use hacking is a "legit strategy".
Cheese by definition is "relies on your opponent not knowing about it at all and costs you the game if it fails".
My reply depends on whether you think cheesing is subpar to "normal" gameplay or not.
We are not discussing if Lotze legitimately beat Idra or not. He did. Completely. He won that game 100% fairly. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
But there is a difference between beating someone and completely outplaying someone. Outplay implies complete dominance, complete control. "He never had a chance". Obviously, that doesn't apply when your entire strategy is just betting on a chance.
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame
sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg...
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame
sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg...
pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan.
and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over.
Protoss is overpowerd in my opinion.. no way he could beat idra straight up.. idra is more skilled.. I think protoss needs more of a nerf than zealot build time
I really don't blame him for missing the hidden Stargate, because frankly Lotze did a good job covering it up with his in-base build. However, I think IdrA could have easily had game 3 if he had scouted the hidden expansion. Missing it was just a big mistake.
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame
sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg...
pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan.
and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over.
oh.. i am so happy for lotze!!!
Didn't Lotze open 3 gate robo then more or less didn't use them and still won?
What other race could you possibly do something like this vs and have a reasonable shot at winning? It's hard to fully comment because they don't post the replays, but given my experience as zerg I think I can put it together.
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame
sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg...
pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan.
and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over.
oh.. i am so happy for lotze!!!
Didn't Lotze open 3 gate robo then more or less didn't use them and still won?
What other race could you possibly do something like this vs and have a reasonable shot at winning? It's hard to fully comment because they don't post the replays, but given my experience as zerg I think I can put it together.
Um... Terran? If it had been a hidden starport with banshees instead of void rays it still would have been the exact same outcome.
IdrA not scouting, and not making enough Corrupters is what really caused Lotze to win - don't get me wrong here Lotze played a really really great game, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw him in the semi's. But realistically IdrA should NOT have lost that third game, absolutely not.
Edit: In regards to the post above me. Lotze got the Robo to trick IdrA in game two actually. It was a really great play.
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame
sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg...
pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan.
and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over.
oh.. i am so happy for lotze!!!
Didn't Lotze open 3 gate robo then more or less didn't use them and still won?
What other race could you possibly do something like this vs and have a reasonable shot at winning? It's hard to fully comment because they don't post the replays, but given my experience as zerg I think I can put it together.
Um... Terran? If it had been a hidden starport with banshees instead of void rays it still would have been the exact same outcome.
No it wouldn't have. Banshees are too fragile and and can be reactively countered.
Note: I'm not saying VRs are OP, but there role is very different then banshees. Banshees are a unit that has to be planned for and executed carefully only to give you an advantage. Similar to VRs in PvT. In PvZ, vrs will outright win the game, or do very little.
People criticize Idra for being "predictable", but really, there are very few other ways you can play Zerg at all beyond ~4 openers against any single race.
- How does it feel to be the first one to qualify to the round of 16? ▲ Honestly, because Idra is a world-class player, I couldn't guarantee I would get to the round of 16. Because I wasn't nervous, I was able to play my game and was able to qualify.
Even the koreans acknowledge him as one of the best O: I bet lotze loses in the next round though, it seemed like he won due to idras scouting mistakes rather then through overwhelming skill, even though he is obviously pretty good
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame
sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg...
pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan.
and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over.
oh.. i am so happy for lotze!!!
Didn't Lotze open 3 gate robo then more or less didn't use them and still won?
What other race could you possibly do something like this vs and have a reasonable shot at winning? It's hard to fully comment because they don't post the replays, but given my experience as zerg I think I can put it together.
Um... Terran? If it had been a hidden starport with banshees instead of void rays it still would have been the exact same outcome.
No it wouldn't have. Banshees are too fragile and and can be reactively countered.
Note: I'm not saying VRs are OP, but there role is very different then banshees. Banshees are a unit that has to be planned for and executed carefully only to give you an advantage. Similar to VRs in PvT. In PvZ, vrs will outright win the game, or do very little.
People criticize Idra for being "predictable", but really, there are very few other ways you can play Zerg at all beyond ~4 openers against any single race.
That's not true. And I meant it from the zerg perspective.
If Terran or P show that many of one type of tech vs zerg then pull out something else it's viable.
If T,P, or Z show that much tech vs a T or P player and pull out something else it may have some effect, but it's not at all expected to win the game because they should be able to handle it somewhat, scouted or not.
Basically put it like this. If I'm not mistaken Torch went out in a TvP game where the P hid a late stargate and showed other tech. Everyone said he fucked up, did poorly, made stupid decisions, and should have been all set vs VRs, etc. IdrA loses to the same thing and beyond some people saying he should be scouting more (true, but also you can't expect scouting to be 100% reliable in finding hidden tech OLs or not), but that it seemed to mostly be a brilliant play by Lotze.
- How does it feel to be the first one to qualify to the round of 16? ▲ Honestly, because Idra is a world-class player, I couldn't guarantee I would get to the round of 16. Because I wasn't nervous, I was able to play my game and was able to qualify.
Even the koreans acknowledge him as one of the best O: I bet lotze loses in the next round though, it seemed like he won due to idras scouting mistakes rather then through overwhelming skill, even though he is obviously pretty good
Oh sure, the "koreans". No, just Lotze. And he's likely being kind.
That's not true. And I meant it from the zerg perspective.
If Terran or P show that many of one type of tech vs zerg then pull out something else it's viable.
If T,P, or Z show that much tech vs a T or P player and pull out something else it may have some effect, but it's not at all expected to win the game because they should be able to handle it somewhat, scouted or not.
Basically put it like this. If I'm not mistaken Torch went out in a TvP game where the P hid a late stargate and showed other tech. Everyone said he fucked up, did poorly, made stupid decisions, and should have been all set vs VRs, etc. IdrA loses to the same thing and beyond some people saying he should be scouting more (true, but also you can't expect scouting to be 100% reliable in finding hidden tech OLs or not), but that it seemed to mostly be a brilliant play by Lotze.
Then thats a completely invalid conclusion. I even said earlier in my posts, PvT voidray is very different from PvZ voidray. PvT early voidray is not a cheese. Its slightly flimsy, but still a strong opener. It doesn't depend on your opponent having insufficient anti-air. Marines are the only terran ground unit (outside of thors...against voidrays...lolwut) that can attack air. They are very accessible, but have less range then voidrays. Terrans who simply get "enough" marines will not stop themselves from a heavy contain, supply depot snipes, and maybe even worker snipes. It allows protoss to control the game.
If they change there build as a reaction, then you've already justified the cost of your void rays. A terran who techs to vikings will delay any potential super early game bioplay, while mass marines is very easily countered.
Against Zerg, void ray play is a huge gamble. Proxy Void Ray Double robo is 100% gamble. This is because containing zerg to anything more then one base is pretty worthless, and VR obviously can't do 1 base contain. Zerg isn't going to play aggressive early on. By going voidrays, you give him free saturation on two bases while you delay any kind of army, and voidrays simply cannot be effectively used against Hydralisks or mutas at all.
The only time when Void Ray against Z isn't a cheese is if its accompanied by heavy early game pressure off two gates delaying lairtech.
PvT voidray was even standard play at times during SC2. PvZ voidray never really has been.
all these ppl whining about VR in z v p... do you want some cheese? please, whine more. it sounds like you are saying... t v z.. in bw wraiths are imba cuz it requires zerg change their tech line!! its not like void rays are that early in the tech tree. zerg can have sufficient anti air at that point in the game god seriously, you do what you have to win. not everything is cheese the toss played amazingly and won rightfully so against idra.
trying to take his hard earned win against him... he prepared GREAT for idra in the 2nd game. dont try to discredit him for doing something non standard in a game that hasnt even set standards builds for matchups concretely. its like trying to discredit boxer vs ruby or whoever in that TvT where he faked having a base on the bottom right corner by proxying his rax there. was it unconventional? yes was it cheese? no it was a total mind fuck blah cant stand these ppl
and how the fuck is a hidden expo in a long macro game fucking cheese? goddamn idiots
Was an interesting match. I like the fact the BO scouting blew up; When Tasteless and Artoises were mentioning it I'm posistive I'm not the only one who knew it was going to backfire.
I was gutted 3rd game though, idra was ahead after holding on after that nice timing attack, Lotze HAD to get a hidden and make it work. I honestly couldn't believe the lack of scouting to make sure you seal the deal, even sniped a pylon up there.
That's not true. And I meant it from the zerg perspective.
If Terran or P show that many of one type of tech vs zerg then pull out something else it's viable.
If T,P, or Z show that much tech vs a T or P player and pull out something else it may have some effect, but it's not at all expected to win the game because they should be able to handle it somewhat, scouted or not.
Basically put it like this. If I'm not mistaken Torch went out in a TvP game where the P hid a late stargate and showed other tech. Everyone said he fucked up, did poorly, made stupid decisions, and should have been all set vs VRs, etc. IdrA loses to the same thing and beyond some people saying he should be scouting more (true, but also you can't expect scouting to be 100% reliable in finding hidden tech OLs or not), but that it seemed to mostly be a brilliant play by Lotze.
Then thats a completely invalid conclusion. I even said earlier in my posts, PvT voidray is very different from PvZ voidray. PvT early voidray is not a cheese. Its slightly flimsy, but still a strong opener. It doesn't depend on your opponent having insufficient anti-air. Marines are the only terran ground unit (outside of thors...against voidrays...lolwut) that can attack air. They are very accessible, but have less range then voidrays. Terrans who simply get "enough" marines will not stop themselves from a heavy contain, supply depot snipes, and maybe even worker snipes. It allows protoss to control the game.
If they change there build as a reaction, then you've already justified the cost of your void rays. A terran who techs to vikings will delay any potential super early game bioplay, while mass marines is very easily countered.
Against Zerg, void ray play is a huge gamble. Proxy Void Ray Double robo is 100% gamble. This is because containing zerg to anything more then one base is pretty worthless. Zerg isn't going to play aggressive early on. By going voidrays, you give him free saturation on two bases, and voidrays simply cannot be effectively used against Hydralisks or mutas at all.
The only time when Void Ray against Z isn't a cheese is if its accompanied by heavy early game pressure off two gates delaying lairtech.
I agree, and that's kind of my point, but I still don't think it's coming across clearly.
Now again sorry I have no way of watching the game so I am going on description but, this is how I see it.
3 gate -> robo -> double stargate without using either the robo or much of the gates is not a 'valid' transition. Other than scouting deficiencies it's entirely suboptimal. The robo does little to help the Protoss and instead is entirely decoy at a cost of 200/200. Generally same with the 3rd gate (2 gates + 2 stargates is pretty taxing on one base, and the 3rd gate shouldn't really make a difference in holding early aggression though maybe it does).
On the other side Roach or Roach/ling is a good composition ZvP when your opponent appears to be teching and has a robo out. It's a strong composition that holds up where hydras might otherwise have trouble (aka melt to colossi). I don't know if Idra went for it, but it's generally expected that a spire would be going up as well when expecting robo (but the timing makes it's completion much later). Basically if IdrA had anything that shot up other than air units (or queens I guess) he'd be at a horrible disadvantage vs the push if it came out as robo/warpgate.
It's not an easy point to get across, but what I'm getting at is in PvT, PvP, PvZ, or TvZ I don't think there's ever a situation that mimics this. Something where one player can have a reasonable composition, see a reasonable tech (which they have the composition for), and near instantly lose to hidden tech.
PvT if you try to push out DTs after 3 gate, the Terran has scan as a backup and likely an engy bay down if they're going bio. Push out VRs after rush robo and first off you're likely to just get run over by bio, even if you don't the marines are available to potentially minimize damage.
TvP if you try to push out banshees after a bunch of barracks, well that's pretty strong, but it only demands detection on the Protoss' part as well as the units they already have or already are capable of making. Likewise it's not 'wasted' tech because you can follow up with medivac/bio or banshee/bio so the barracks are still getting used. And Again you might also just fall to 4 gate pressure if you really try to cut back on use of the barracks you built.
Sure if you manage to hide and mass 10 of some air unit you might win quickly, but that's a little unrealistic as it leaves you vulnerable for a long period of time vs relatively short window of opportunity for a quick 2 stargates and some vrs.
Basically I think only vs Zerg can you waste minerals on buildings you don't intend to really use at relatively low risk while hiding tech that gives you a set of units that can instantly win the game vs a reasonable composition by the other player.
It's the sorta thing you see a lot (hell it's basically what IdrA lost to in IEM). P/T can show zerg one thing show them it again and again, then it turns out to really be something else that will instant win the game because zerg doesn't really have a 'safe' army composition.
Basically if IdrA had anything that shot up other than air units (or queens I guess) he'd be at a horrible disadvantage vs the push if it came out as robo/warpgate.
I get what your saying. Your saying he adapted his strategy to simply slap on a stargate after making an initial decision to 2robo as a reaction against Z probably aiming to counter. Well, two things.
First of all, that build itself isn't viable. Its just far too gas intensive, and you haven't even made units yet lol. Toss isn't designed to react to everything unlike zerg. You can't really apply pressure early with that build, and zerg can break you early. Even with VRs our, your still not going to be able to deal with mass hydra, the likely reaction. And delaying further for collosus, well Zerg can easily have 3 sat based by then lol.
Second, thats not what happened. He was commited to fake robos from the getgo, and it was apparent by the way he played, his army composition, or lack of therof, etc.
I feel his style though, once the kinks get worked out, will dominate. idrA fighting~!! ^^.
Word. This is why I like Idra. I don't care too much about manner or character, I don't cheer for the baseball teams who have the most people I'd like to go drinking with. Right now, I'd say Idra is probably the foreign player with the biggest chance at doing anything significant in the Korea SC2 scene. Sad to see him fuck it up. Maybe next time?
That's not true. And I meant it from the zerg perspective.
If Terran or P show that many of one type of tech vs zerg then pull out something else it's viable.
If T,P, or Z show that much tech vs a T or P player and pull out something else it may have some effect, but it's not at all expected to win the game because they should be able to handle it somewhat, scouted or not.
Basically put it like this. If I'm not mistaken Torch went out in a TvP game where the P hid a late stargate and showed other tech. Everyone said he fucked up, did poorly, made stupid decisions, and should have been all set vs VRs, etc. IdrA loses to the same thing and beyond some people saying he should be scouting more (true, but also you can't expect scouting to be 100% reliable in finding hidden tech OLs or not), but that it seemed to mostly be a brilliant play by Lotze.
Then thats a completely invalid conclusion. I even said earlier in my posts, PvT voidray is very different from PvZ voidray. PvT early voidray is not a cheese. Its slightly flimsy, but still a strong opener. It doesn't depend on your opponent having insufficient anti-air. Marines are the only terran ground unit (outside of thors...against voidrays...lolwut) that can attack air. They are very accessible, but have less range then voidrays. Terrans who simply get "enough" marines will not stop themselves from a heavy contain, supply depot snipes, and maybe even worker snipes. It allows protoss to control the game.
If they change there build as a reaction, then you've already justified the cost of your void rays. A terran who techs to vikings will delay any potential super early game bioplay, while mass marines is very easily countered.
Against Zerg, void ray play is a huge gamble. Proxy Void Ray Double robo is 100% gamble. This is because containing zerg to anything more then one base is pretty worthless. Zerg isn't going to play aggressive early on. By going voidrays, you give him free saturation on two bases, and voidrays simply cannot be effectively used against Hydralisks or mutas at all.
The only time when Void Ray against Z isn't a cheese is if its accompanied by heavy early game pressure off two gates delaying lairtech.
I agree, and that's kind of my point, but I still don't think it's coming across clearly.
Now again sorry I have no way of watching the game so I am going on description but, this is how I see it.
3 gate -> robo -> double stargate without using either the robo or much of the gates is not a 'valid' transition. Other than scouting deficiencies it's entirely suboptimal. The robo does little to help the Protoss and instead is entirely decoy at a cost of 200/200. Generally same with the 3rd gate (2 gates + 2 stargates is pretty taxing on one base, and the 3rd gate shouldn't really make a difference in holding early aggression though maybe it does).
I agree with that. Gates, robos, and stargates need to be cheaper so this kind of stuff can happen more seamlessly and optimally. Right now, protoss has the hardest time switching units and strats because of the unit producing structure. Make it simpler and protoss can innovate more.
On September 16 2010 02:40 tomatriedes wrote: How did he 'learn' what builds Idra was practicing against? Did Idra's practice partner leak that? If so, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.
I believe they said Idra was practicing with NEXGenius and Lotzes teammates saw on NEXGenius' profile that he had played idra a few times on LT with the exact build that he had planned to go for.
Wow, that sucks for Idra- pretty unlucky.
He deserved it imo... People are misunderstanding what happened.. Idra scouted what builds his opponent had been practicing and then practiced a counter build for that which the opponent was luckily tipped off about before he started playing him. Idra is the one that started snooping BOs, not the other guy.
*edit because I feel like crap.
That's still only half the story. People were snooping on behalf of Lotze as well. He faked the Colossus build by letting Idra scout the Robo.Basically Lotze's snooping was better than Idra's. Idra should have scouted more in both games. I don't really have a problem with people looking up other peoples build orders since that evens the playing field for the people that have their games casted or their replays available for download.
On September 16 2010 01:35 Tachion wrote: I hope Idra doesn't feel too bad, the only games he lost are the ones where scouting cost him the game(though not much could have been done in G2). In G3 Idra had him on the ropes pushed back into his nat and would have won right there if not for the hidden expo. That little flaw in his play is easily fixed, and the next time we see Idra in the GSL I'm sure he'll be stronger than ever Idra fighting!
Some of you should just never ever post again. Especially not in the Starcraft forums. Maybe stick to the general forums where you're allowed to make uninformed biased opinions with no basis of understanding whatsoever. What little surprise that all these posts I speak of come from 2010's. Not to toss all 2010's registrants under the same branch but you really should take a look at what some of your representatives are in this thread
V you dumb fuck. NexGenius did not leak info.
AND TWO, PEOPLE TELL OTHER PEOPLE THEIR OPPONENT'S LIKELY STRAT ALL THE TIME. Get a fucking clue on pro scenes before you comment.
TL:DR of this thread should be, yes, an upset happened and some of you people are making teamliquid comments look like a fucking amateur joke section. There's already GOM forums for that shit.
Meta-gaming based off battle.net match history and training partners leaking info? No me gusta. I have a feeling even if Greg won he would still make some statement about how retarded match history is (he has before).
Man, Idra should've just played normally as he ussualy does in the second game and would've won. In third, after he finaly defended should've just macroed better. Also, not having an overlord at every expansion is no excuse. Still, Idra FTW in Season 2!
On September 16 2010 15:40 Lighioana wrote: Man, Idra should've just played normally as he ussualy does in the second game and would've won. In third, after he finaly defended should've just macroed better. Also, not having an overlord at every expansion is no excuse. Still, Idra FTW in Season 2!
Second game, he just misread his opponent and was a bit complacent. Third game, he slipped up. It was definitely a good game and not at all the cheesefest (lawl, expanding and not getting it scouted = cheese) some of these raging fanboys are crying about. (You owe it to yourself to watch it) It pretty much looked like a close game of chicken until one of them slipped first. Though, I do think Lotze had it from his attack, it really threw off Idra's rhythm and if he just pressed earlier, he definitely had Idra barring some miracle.
After watching the series, my view on Idra changed. Now I respect him as A class player. He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras.
With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable. For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+. He definitely has rooms to improve.
For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series. Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P. Enough said.
On September 16 2010 15:59 LuciferSC wrote: After watching the series, my view on Idra changed. Now I respect him as A class player. He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras.
With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable. For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+. He definitely has rooms to improve.
For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series. Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P. Enough said.
thank you for enlightening us that Zerg players are idiot and are playing Zerg wrongly. You clearly have the clearance to state that
I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote: I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit.
Idra is a level above MadFrog and 'ret. There isn't even a comparison. Losing one series doesn't make you a worse player.
On September 16 2010 10:21 crimsonsentinel wrote: I'm a huge IdrA fan, but he got outplayed pure and simple. I hope he works on his scouting for the next GSL.
This bugs me because both times he lost to hidden cheese. Yes, sneaking that bottom expo is a cheese, Idra could have demolished it for most of the game if he knew it was there. I agree he deserved the loss for not scouting properly, but don't say he got outplayed pure and simple. He didn't get outplayed, he got cheesed pure and simple...
On September 16 2010 10:30 TOloseGT wrote: Sounds like a legit strategy to me.
Anything that doesn't use hacking is a "legit strategy".
Cheese by definition is "relies on your opponent not knowing about it at all and costs you the game if it fails".
No, cheese by definition is not simply tricking your opponent. It infers that the player played in a cheap and illegitimate fashion.
Therefore, No, Idra did not lose to cheese and No, doing a sneak expo is not a cheese.
Don't try to take away the win from Lotz, he deserves it. Realize by you guys bashing the series u're also taking it away from Idra as well, who played strong in the series and should be proud.
On September 16 2010 15:59 LuciferSC wrote: After watching the series, my view on Idra changed. Now I respect him as A class player. He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras.
With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable. For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+. He definitely has rooms to improve.
For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series. Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P. Enough said.
thank you for enlightening us that Zerg players are idiot and are playing Zerg wrongly. You clearly have the clearance to state that
I apologize for speaking that blatantly, but I was referring to the whining Zerg players, not zerg players as a whole.
Perhaps I over-reacted, but getting really tired of players still whining even after watching a series like this where it proves that zerg is very powerful when played right. Please don't say stuff like 'zerg only has a chance of winning IF they play a perfect game' after watching a series like this. U're only insulting Idra by saying that.
On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote: I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
On September 16 2010 15:59 LuciferSC wrote: After watching the series, my view on Idra changed. Now I respect him as A class player. He has very solid macro, knowing the right time to get all the workers to get ahead in econ and get crazy number of roaches/hydras.
With that said however, his play style seems rather simple and easily predictable. For that, I can't give him credit as being S or even A+. He definitely has rooms to improve.
For the whiners still QQing that Zerg is UP, Idra actually had advantage in unit throughout the series. Zerg is NOT UP, it's the majority of zerg players who plays zerg like they play T or P. Enough said.
thank you for enlightening us that Zerg players are idiot and are playing Zerg wrongly. You clearly have the clearance to state that
I apologize for speaking that blatantly, but I was referring to the whining Zerg players, not zerg players as a whole.
Perhaps I over-reacted, but getting really tired of players still whining even after watching a series like this where it proves that zerg is very powerful when played right. Please don't say stuff like 'zerg only has a chance of winning IF they play a perfect game' after watching a series like this. U're only insulting Idra by saying that.
I dont think many complain about ZvP, or about this series. It's just an upset, which can happen in BW too every day. However saying Zergs arent playing zerg right just has nothing to do with this, or anything really, as it makes no sense, coming from a random poster.
On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote: I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit.
Lol this is just hilarious, same for the guy saying he's only famous for BM. Cool even said Idra is the best macro zerg right now, I think he has some experience on KR.
On September 16 2010 17:55 Nexic wrote: Lol this is just hilarious, same for the guy saying he's only famous for BM. Cool even said Idra is the best macro zerg right now, I think he has some experience on KR.
I am now confused about what is a good macro. As a zerg player,he even failed to scout an expo for a long time in mid game. A top zerg NEVER makes that kind of mistake. Call it cheese,call it luck,but forget the best macro zerg...
On September 16 2010 17:55 Nexic wrote: Lol this is just hilarious, same for the guy saying he's only famous for BM. Cool even said Idra is the best macro zerg right now, I think he has some experience on KR.
I am now confused about what is a good macro. As a zerg player,he even failed to scout an expo for a long time in mid game. A top zerg NEVER makes that kind of mistake. Call it cheese,call it luck,but forget the best macro zerg...
Um, what? Top players make silly mistakes too dude. Even the top pro players in SC1 would sometimes go entire games without scouting a hidden expo, that stuff happens.
Furthermore, a silly mistake about scouting doesn't have any impact on the strength of the macro. In fact that game showcased just how good it is, seeing as how he almost outmacroed Lotze at one point despite being basically a base down.
Great games, kinda disappointed Idra lost, but still good games. I was screaming at my monitor for IdrA to scout the 6... he lost soooo much because of it.
I think a lot of people that continually jump the gun in regards to complaining about cheese should read David Sirlin's series of articles titled "Playing to Win," or at least this article in particular:
It was written by a person with a history of fighting games, but it's applicable to many other things, and I think the general anti-cheese attitude in RTS is one of them.
This is another excerpt from his series, in a different article, "What Should Be Banned?" And it rings really true to me. Most of my high-level competitive gaming experiences have been with fighting games, and I always found it interesting that in today's world of data gathering and reactive balance patching by the developers, there still existed people that enjoyed playing games that received far less patching; fighting games in particular.
"The entire notion of radically patching and altering a game after its release may have many desirable properties, but it also has created an attitude among developers that they can release a somewhat buggy and imbalanced game and just patch it later. It is no surprise then that players of this type of game see differently than players of more “static” games on the issue of banning and altering a game. To players of my kind of games, banning is an ultra-extreme measure. To players of some internet games, the changing of game balance can be an everyday occurrence, as can the fixing of bugs.
The “constant patching” approach by developers also often leads to laziness on the part of the players; there’s less reward for trying as hard as you can within the given rules, because if you are successful, your tactic will just be patched into obsolescence anyway. You might be a footnote someplace, but you won’t still be winning. It gets worse in most massively multiplayer games, where you can actually be banned—permanently—for playing within the rules they created, but playing in a way they had not intended."
I'd liken cheese as the high risk/reward that applies to what Street Fighter players know as 'wakeup-super;' something you will very rarely see at the highest levels of play simply because doing so can leave you extremely vulnerable if you 'guess wrong.' But you still will see it because it keeps players honest and generates an effect whether or not it is successful. The opponent will be more wary of the wakeup super and perhaps not capitalize on aggression as much, just as in RTS the opponent will be more wary of the cheese and perhaps expend additional time or resources in trying to prevent the cheese (through scouting or other means).
Just like bluffing in certain games of chance is part of the game, so is cheese. Cheese and 'standard play' are both weapons in a player's arsenal, though of course statistically exceptional standard play will garner more successful results overall. But having AND using both can be even more effective in some situations. Some food for thought.
On September 16 2010 15:36 leetchaos wrote: Meta-gaming based off battle.net match history and training partners leaking info? No me gusta. I have a feeling even if Greg won he would still make some statement about how retarded match history is (he has before).
Idra was the one checking out people's match histories.
This is mostly because of a key flaw in zerg. ive been beaten by banshee/voidray cheese so many times that ive made 3-4 queens many games when i didnt need too. ive gotten better at scouting but its still rather annoying. terran have marines and toss have stalkers. base units. hydra's are just garbage units plus they are tier2. until blizzard buffs thier speed off creep this will always be a problem.
the fact that it worked so well vs a top tier player so late in the game just goes on to prove my point regardless of scouting. imo that kind of play should have been game changing but def not game over. he should have lost his expansion or many workers. but losing the game is a little overboard.
even with 3 queens its u can still be killed by 3 void rays. if this was bw's those roachs' would have been hydra's
i play high diamond all leagues as random.. take that for what its worth... not too much considering how easy it is to get there but still.
Please guys... try and think at this from all PoVs One could argue that since IdrA scouted Lotze's BO's and Lotze scouted that... all scouting in general got canceled out and so is completely irrelevant to the results of this match. Tell me this: If there had been NO mention of BO scouting... would anyone be blowing a fit about it? Would people be blaming Blizzard, Lotze or IdrA for out-of-game cheesing? No... people would say "Oh, IdrA got outplayed... shitty." And in all reality... that is what happened. It sucked, definately, but Lotze is an extremely good player. Game 2 was a cheese game, yeah... Lotze even faked other tech to throw off his scouting, so all-in-all it was a genius play if you ask me! Now the fact that Lotze knew exactly what IdrA was looking for, since IdrA had been snooping build orders is irrelevant. All it means is that IdrA took his eyes off the game of Starcraft, and played a different game... If he had been playing Starcraft instead of Poker... he may not have crumpled so easily.
Now Game 3 was different... This was NOT cheese, no matter what people say. Cheese is a strategy... a game plan... your entire game revolves around it. This hidden expansion was NOT a strategy, it was a tactic, and therefore was not cheese. While in the end, the game came down to that hidden expansion, that was only because it was not scouted and was the single fatal flaw in IdrA's play. Simply outplayed... Nothing to do with build order snooping, nothing to do with cheese, imbalance or anything like that. IdrA made an honest mistake that happens to the best of us from time to time... he forgot to scout the hidden expansion. Other than that, he honestly played pretty damn well, and I hope to see him in the next GSL. Every player in the game has something they can work on... even in BroodWar. IdrA isn't perfect, Lotze isn't perfect, and next year the results could and will be different.
On September 16 2010 16:07 bonedriven wrote: I don't know why so many people panic. Actually I think that IdrA is by far NOT a top zerg player,which explains why he lost the games. Players like MadFrog,TL`ret etc who are not as famous as him atm are even better,let alone korean zergs.
You just need to wake up a little bit.
I'm not an Idra fan.. but I can still admit it's painfully obvious that he's the best zerg player right now.. Madfrod and Ret are not even close to his skill level ATM.. and I love Ret & Madfrog
On September 17 2010 05:31 Chill wrote: Please don't cite Sirlin. Once you turn to stopping time with ancient asian techniques, you lose all credibility.
Sirlin has some very well written and well reasoned articles. If he has some absurd belief it doesn't change the reasoning of his articles.
I was so sad watching that last game. I thought he was going to take game 3 up until a few minutes before it ended. GL to IdrA in the next GSL but gl to Lotze in this one, he seems like a nice enough dude.
On September 18 2010 04:54 andrewlt wrote: Man, some of you guys talk about Idra like he's the Flash of SC2. Flash's Starsense would've told him about that expansion even without scouting.
No one is the current Flash of SC2. I don't think you can even call what Flash has star sense, it's more like Flash sense because no one does it like him. Idra is without a doubt a top player in the current scene though.
Next GSL or two are Idra's last chances to do anything, before the real progamers switch over.. because with his closed-mindedness, he's not gonna stand a chance vs people of same or better mechanical skills.
On September 18 2010 09:54 niteReloaded wrote: Next GSL or two are Idra's last chances to do anything, before the real progamers switch over.. because with his closed-mindedness, he's not gonna stand a chance vs people of same or better mechanical skills.
Evolve or die..
I don't get the statement about close-mindedness.
IdrA has explained in very logical fashion why he plays the way he does. It's not that he isn't open to other tactics. It's that nothing but "out econ your opponent" consistently works for Zerg in the current game.
On September 18 2010 09:54 niteReloaded wrote: Next GSL or two are Idra's last chances to do anything, before the real progamers switch over.. because with his closed-mindedness, he's not gonna stand a chance vs people of same or better mechanical skills.
Evolve or die..
I don't get the statement about close-mindedness.
IdrA has explained in very logical fashion why he plays the way he does. It's not that he isn't open to other tactics. It's that nothing but "out econ your opponent" consistently works for Zerg in the current game.
Yes, but once you out-econ your opponent, you can't just sit and wait and play passively without scouting all expansions on the map.
On September 18 2010 14:08 travis wrote: lol i like how people are all like "oh man it's going to be korean domination in sc2, foreigners can't win", cuz idra loses to a korean.
guess what, there's 62 koreans in the tournament and 2 foreigners, so yeah, he's probably going to lose to a korean
60 Koreans 4 Foreigners Torch, Artosis, Idra, TLO. Yes the odds were stacked against them.
Idra lost because he ignored his style and tried to be cute. I would have guessed he would have reached the RO8 easily if he hadn't tried that. Torch - too new TLO - has same chance as Idra did RO8 with ease IMO. Artosis - Has a ceiling on his gameplay that he can't raise.
Hopefully a few more of the really good foreigners show up next time.
On September 18 2010 09:54 niteReloaded wrote: Next GSL or two are Idra's last chances to do anything, before the real progamers switch over.. because with his closed-mindedness, he's not gonna stand a chance vs people of same or better mechanical skills.
Evolve or die..
I don't get the statement about close-mindedness.
IdrA has explained in very logical fashion why he plays the way he does. It's not that he isn't open to other tactics. It's that nothing but "out econ your opponent" consistently works for Zerg in the current game.
the statement has more to do with what he did in SC1 than SC2, but people don't change quickly.
Also, why do you think Idra picked Zerg in the first place?
..
Because the race is the way it is, you can play it like a robot and it doesn't gain much in strenght if you're creative. So he's setting himself up for things he'll use as excuses later on.
On September 18 2010 22:59 niteReloaded wrote: Also, why do you think Idra picked Zerg in the first place?
..
Because the race is the way it is, you can play it like a robot and it doesn't gain much in strenght if you're creative. So he's setting himself up for things he'll use as excuses later on.
On September 18 2010 22:59 niteReloaded wrote: Also, why do you think Idra picked Zerg in the first place?
..
Because the race is the way it is, you can play it like a robot and it doesn't gain much in strenght if you're creative. So he's setting himself up for things he'll use as excuses later on.
Something is wrong with you.
I always thought he played it because he likes to make the biggest pile of dudes fastest.
On September 18 2010 22:59 niteReloaded wrote: Also, why do you think Idra picked Zerg in the first place?
..
Because the race is the way it is, you can play it like a robot and it doesn't gain much in strenght if you're creative. So he's setting himself up for things he'll use as excuses later on.
Something is wrong with you.
objects appear differently from the perspective of different subjects.
But perhaps I can elaborate.
He plays like a robot. Then he picks Zerg because it's the most suitable for this kind of play. Then, he continues to play like he did before. People ask why he plays like that. He answers that it's because that's the way to play Zerg.
He's staying locked in his own world, denies any chance of attempting to expand his views and continues to mathematically play a game which has many other elements to it. That's why in my opinion Idra will never be a top level player. At least not when the real progamers switch.
On September 18 2010 22:59 niteReloaded wrote: Also, why do you think Idra picked Zerg in the first place?
..
Because the race is the way it is, you can play it like a robot and it doesn't gain much in strenght if you're creative. So he's setting himself up for things he'll use as excuses later on.
Something is wrong with you.
objects appear differently from the perspective of different subjects.
But perhaps I can elaborate.
He plays like a robot. Then he picks Zerg because it's the most suitable for this kind of play. Then, he continues to play like he did before. People ask why he plays like that. He answers that it's because that's the way to play Zerg.
He's staying locked in his own world, denies any chance of attempting to expand his views and continues to mathematically play a game which has many other elements to it. That's why in my opinion Idra will never be a top level player. At least not when the real progamers switch.
Saying that he plays like a robot is just stupid, the reasons you posted are also not the reason for not advancing.
Actually i think idra would've won game 3 if he had just all in attacked after he pushed back lotze's early army, but instead he just sat at his base and did nothing.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Milkis/GSLRO32Winners/1284545238_1.jpg)
. Or is it because people can check the build order starts... arghhh!
cheers.. thanks again.
)
