EPT[Interview] GSL Ro32 Lotze vs Idra Winner - Page 10
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SuperGnu
Sweden240 Posts
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TOloseGT
United States1145 Posts
On September 16 2010 10:31 Half wrote: Anything that doesn't use hacking is a "legit strategy". Cheese by definition is "relies on your opponent not knowing about it at all and costs you the game if it fails". My reply depends on whether you think cheesing is subpar to "normal" gameplay or not. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 16 2010 10:35 TOloseGT wrote: My reply depends on whether you think cheesing is subpar to "normal" gameplay or not. We are not discussing if Lotze legitimately beat Idra or not. He did. Completely. He won that game 100% fairly. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. But there is a difference between beating someone and completely outplaying someone. Outplay implies complete dominance, complete control. "He never had a chance". Obviously, that doesn't apply when your entire strategy is just betting on a chance. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:32 Saracen wrote: Metagame  sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg... | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
On September 16 2010 10:38 kickinhead wrote: sad to see Idra having to do all-in-strats and be so metagame-oriented - he was always known for his solid builds, but I guess u just can't win with that as Zerg... pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan. and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over. oh.. i am so happy for lotze!!! | ||
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starhunk
Canada84 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On September 16 2010 12:21 Garaman wrote: pffft zerg can win against protoss fine. its the problem that idra always has, he antcipates what his opponents will due, won't scout, won't deviate from his plan. and it wasn't cheese. it was the sickest mind game in g2 due to lotze finding out about idra knowing his exact builds. he did a lil deviation WHILE showing the build idra was expecting. mind fucked all over. oh.. i am so happy for lotze!!! Didn't Lotze open 3 gate robo then more or less didn't use them and still won? What other race could you possibly do something like this vs and have a reasonable shot at winning? It's hard to fully comment because they don't post the replays, but given my experience as zerg I think I can put it together. | ||
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Neoattitude
Guam172 Posts
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
On September 16 2010 12:53 Logo wrote: Didn't Lotze open 3 gate robo then more or less didn't use them and still won? What other race could you possibly do something like this vs and have a reasonable shot at winning? It's hard to fully comment because they don't post the replays, but given my experience as zerg I think I can put it together. Um... Terran? If it had been a hidden starport with banshees instead of void rays it still would have been the exact same outcome. | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
Edit: In regards to the post above me. Lotze got the Robo to trick IdrA in game two actually. It was a really great play. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 16 2010 12:58 Cofo wrote: Um... Terran? If it had been a hidden starport with banshees instead of void rays it still would have been the exact same outcome. No it wouldn't have. Banshees are too fragile and and can be reactively countered. Note: I'm not saying VRs are OP, but there role is very different then banshees. Banshees are a unit that has to be planned for and executed carefully only to give you an advantage. Similar to VRs in PvT. In PvZ, vrs will outright win the game, or do very little. People criticize Idra for being "predictable", but really, there are very few other ways you can play Zerg at all beyond ~4 openers against any single race. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On September 16 2010 01:26 Milkis wrote: - How does it feel to be the first one to qualify to the round of 16? ▲ Honestly, because Idra is a world-class player, I couldn't guarantee I would get to the round of 16. Because I wasn't nervous, I was able to play my game and was able to qualify. Even the koreans acknowledge him as one of the best O: I bet lotze loses in the next round though, it seemed like he won due to idras scouting mistakes rather then through overwhelming skill, even though he is obviously pretty good | ||
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
On September 16 2010 10:31 Half wrote: Anything that doesn't use hacking is a "legit strategy". Cheese by definition is "relies on your opponent not knowing about it at all and costs you the game if it fails". So does that mean what Idra did game 2 was cheese? Lotze knew about him looking at his matchlist build-order and adapted and Idra failed. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On September 16 2010 13:04 Half wrote: No it wouldn't have. Banshees are too fragile and and can be reactively countered. Note: I'm not saying VRs are OP, but there role is very different then banshees. Banshees are a unit that has to be planned for and executed carefully only to give you an advantage. Similar to VRs in PvT. In PvZ, vrs will outright win the game, or do very little. People criticize Idra for being "predictable", but really, there are very few other ways you can play Zerg at all beyond ~4 openers against any single race. That's not true. And I meant it from the zerg perspective. If Terran or P show that many of one type of tech vs zerg then pull out something else it's viable. If T,P, or Z show that much tech vs a T or P player and pull out something else it may have some effect, but it's not at all expected to win the game because they should be able to handle it somewhat, scouted or not. Basically put it like this. If I'm not mistaken Torch went out in a TvP game where the P hid a late stargate and showed other tech. Everyone said he fucked up, did poorly, made stupid decisions, and should have been all set vs VRs, etc. IdrA loses to the same thing and beyond some people saying he should be scouting more (true, but also you can't expect scouting to be 100% reliable in finding hidden tech OLs or not), but that it seemed to mostly be a brilliant play by Lotze. | ||
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
On September 16 2010 13:06 TheAntZ wrote: Even the koreans acknowledge him as one of the best O: I bet lotze loses in the next round though, it seemed like he won due to idras scouting mistakes rather then through overwhelming skill, even though he is obviously pretty good Oh sure, the "koreans". No, just Lotze. And he's likely being kind. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
That's not true. And I meant it from the zerg perspective. If Terran or P show that many of one type of tech vs zerg then pull out something else it's viable. If T,P, or Z show that much tech vs a T or P player and pull out something else it may have some effect, but it's not at all expected to win the game because they should be able to handle it somewhat, scouted or not. Basically put it like this. If I'm not mistaken Torch went out in a TvP game where the P hid a late stargate and showed other tech. Everyone said he fucked up, did poorly, made stupid decisions, and should have been all set vs VRs, etc. IdrA loses to the same thing and beyond some people saying he should be scouting more (true, but also you can't expect scouting to be 100% reliable in finding hidden tech OLs or not), but that it seemed to mostly be a brilliant play by Lotze. Then thats a completely invalid conclusion. I even said earlier in my posts, PvT voidray is very different from PvZ voidray. PvT early voidray is not a cheese. Its slightly flimsy, but still a strong opener. It doesn't depend on your opponent having insufficient anti-air. Marines are the only terran ground unit (outside of thors...against voidrays...lolwut) that can attack air. They are very accessible, but have less range then voidrays. Terrans who simply get "enough" marines will not stop themselves from a heavy contain, supply depot snipes, and maybe even worker snipes. It allows protoss to control the game. If they change there build as a reaction, then you've already justified the cost of your void rays. A terran who techs to vikings will delay any potential super early game bioplay, while mass marines is very easily countered. Against Zerg, void ray play is a huge gamble. Proxy Void Ray Double robo is 100% gamble. This is because containing zerg to anything more then one base is pretty worthless, and VR obviously can't do 1 base contain. Zerg isn't going to play aggressive early on. By going voidrays, you give him free saturation on two bases while you delay any kind of army, and voidrays simply cannot be effectively used against Hydralisks or mutas at all. The only time when Void Ray against Z isn't a cheese is if its accompanied by heavy early game pressure off two gates delaying lairtech. PvT voidray was even standard play at times during SC2. PvZ voidray never really has been. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
im so, so sad  think some parts of Lotze's interview sound kinda arrogant tbh =/ | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
do you want some cheese? please, whine more. it sounds like you are saying... t v z.. in bw wraiths are imba cuz it requires zerg change their tech line!! its not like void rays are that early in the tech tree. zerg can have sufficient anti air at that point in the game god seriously, you do what you have to win. not everything is cheese the toss played amazingly and won rightfully so against idra. trying to take his hard earned win against him... he prepared GREAT for idra in the 2nd game. dont try to discredit him for doing something non standard in a game that hasnt even set standards builds for matchups concretely. its like trying to discredit boxer vs ruby or whoever in that TvT where he faked having a base on the bottom right corner by proxying his rax there. was it unconventional? yes was it cheese? no it was a total mind fuck blah cant stand these ppl and how the fuck is a hidden expo in a long macro game fucking cheese? goddamn idiots | ||
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