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just have fun!!
i have to writte it as i haven't read it yet... games are mainly for fun
that's why the vast majority is bronze league and don't put as much energy as people from this forum (which is what? 0.000001% of total players base? and mostly are no more in bronze ^^)
i've many fellows who, as the OP, just play a few hours a week, there are in bronze :
some see replays and just try to re-iterate what they saw.
you can laught at them and treat them "monkey" if your ego is not that cool
at least they try (and as say day9 "improvment come from repetition" :p ) sure they would enjoy to think out of the box, but they don't play enought to differenciate bad execution/bad play from good execution/original new play. i see very bad and good moves as well (while they don't even aware of)
do they want to improve?
of course yes
that why we meet and play custom games and discut about it
do they want to put as much energy as you did?
no.
IRL constraint.
but the good news is that even a bad player can have fun, even in bronze
trend in bronze is biased by mix of casual true bronze level and rising players
some play defense because their first objective is to make sure to survive cheese and early push, other try offensive (and then discover how difficult it is to micro and macro at the same time : defense is easier)
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On September 01 2010 12:12 sabre_X wrote:
There isnt much cheese at top of bronze. I play custom games and see it all the time from platinum and diamond players. All the time.
I never would've thought to see someone wish for more cheese. Hopefully you find a way around this observation you've made and find out how to make the game fun for you again. I know you aren't asking for advice, but I think if the opponent turtles that's a great opportunity for you to practice expanding and macroing up a counter force. GL
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I'm another bronzer who will testify to what OP is saying. If you look at my record it says im 9 games below .500 but if exclude the first so many where I was just starting I am well over .500. What I tend to see as an effective Bronze strategy is an expand around 35 and then two base the game for the most part. Usually I should have the MM ball to handle early agression but still eventually out macro the turtlers. Most cant handle the constant pressure of 4-5 production buildings rallied to the front. Though sometimes I still screw up, like tonight I just barely squeaked out a win against one base mass battlecruisers. It required a second expansion but he showed up with the first two when I admittedly had a mountain of tanks. Woops!
What I guess I am trying to say is that simply I enjoy Bronze level. I am not superman by any stretch so why should I feel the need to work to up my rank. I take a more pleasure view out of SC. I won't win tourneys, I wont ever see diamond. I just like like playing games with others my level. What set this topic off topic is that too many people simply assumed that the OP or any bronze level player has an inherit drive to climb the ladder. It's an attitude that is seriously stressing people out over the long run.
Another hobby of mine is national level fencing tournaments here in Canada. Once at nationals a national team member tried to tell me I was a stupid moron for going 1-5 out of pools. He was a douchebag because he assumed that winning was the primary goal. Do I want to win, yes. Is my life a constant focus on the euphoric rush of victory, no. The same can be said of SC. Remember that a place like TL is an extreme niche. Sure it may seem like a pretty big community but people this interested in strategy comprise a tiny fraction of SC players. The fact that OP knows a place like TL exists is a surefire sign that he understands his weaknesses and wants to improve in some fashion. Just not by begging the national team members for advice.
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Loved the post, I like hearing about these kinds of things.
Apparently a ton of people in this thread don't get that there are people who casually play this game. There will always be a bronze league. Also, getting better in SC isn't as intuitive as most other games no matter what you might think. Most of my RL friends would happily play SC2 in the broze league for the rest of their time playing SC2.
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Hi,
I don't know many bronze players (only 1 to be exact), but some silver and gold players (I'm mid-diamond -- and this is not to boast or to state that i am telling the truth or sth...just for a reference).
I played quite a lot with my lower league friends and I noticed two things:
1.) They of course lack mechanics (who does not) and just cant produce probes constantly etc. This will lead to economic disadvantages and smaller army sizes.
2.) They almost don't scout. This fits quite well with OP's observation. Because if you don't scout you cannot adjust your play. So, you need a "good" build order and repeat it every time, no matter what your opponent is doing. There's a lot of VODs and replays out right now, so they often try to copy the higher league builds. (which is okay, but probably not the best way to improve).
A friend of mine told me: wow, why are the battles against u over in no time. Against my silver opponents it takes much longer, i cant react so fast. The main reason for this (apart from battle micro) is that due to my scouting I prepare a perfect counter army to his one. Due to the "hard counters" in SC2 the battles are over almost instantly.
Cheesing (apart from 6 pool) is rare, mainly because lower league players rather lack the multitasking capabilities.
The fact that you encounter many turtling players in bronze league is understandable. By turtling your games last longer and you probably win some more. This creates a better feeling (who likes to lose all the time...). Even though it might not be the best way to improve at the highest rate.
So, even though OP didn't ask, here are some suggestions:
1) Try to constantly build probes (check your games afterwards with 8x replay speed)
2) Learn counters: Ask yourself what is the best unit combination against this or that. This can even be done at work during a short break.
3) Use more scans to check the opponent's unit composition and create the counter units from 2)
4) Against turtling players try harrassment with banshees or drops (MM, Thors) like someone in the thread already proposed. Because: it's fun and helps to improve your multitasking. If you have no chance to harrass, expand faster than your opponent.
GL
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funny read.
i played almost zero melee in BW and I got to diamond playing toss on asia servers. its quite an straightforward learning curve imo.
i think people just arent trying new things out in bronze so they never figure out exactly what to do.
question: What is the point of this thread? is it attempting to discuss bronze level play? improvement?
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for all you know, there are many bronze players who "tanked" their placement matches so that they can pwn noobs to bolster some of their ego... *cough cough* not that I do that....
FINE i admit i tanked my placements, went into bronze for a week, was matched with plats in abt my 10th game, 'teams even' (lol), and have moved back to plat as i shld hv been. But some roflstompers (like me previously) might not want to move out from bronze simply cos they are having such a fun time testing ridiculous BOs against noobs. Thats maybe why you are having a hard time in bronze. Just a possibility...
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Lower level play is funny like that, you can 10rax reaper a terran, only to find that he has infact gone 9rax and 11 rax, completely weird, but it counters your shit anyway 
But aslong as you have a more solid macro game, you should always be able to win.
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It's simply amazing how people managed to complain about elitists in a topic about bronze league. Oh, man, those elitist silver people!
People just want to help, because there's obviously something very very wrong with his play, how is that not completely understandable?
Trends in bronze? How suprising it is that they turtle up and don't really try to improve? You could've asked me 10 years ago and I could've also said that the lowest skilled people will turtle up, it has always been like that for all RTS games.
People also post "you should go see a doctor", when there is the possibility of a health problem, and without the poster explicitly asking for advice. Do you go "those horrible elitist healthy people" at them?
People should try using some common sense instead of absurd overreaction like "those horrible elitists" or "stroking e-peen".
Since when is being better than bronze even remotely an e-peen booster anyway?
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I am also in top Bronze, I have around 200 games. I am 29 years old. I have medium experience in all sorts of computer games. I reflect some insights of the OP by myself. Its either very cheesy (with backup-strategies too!) or very turtling.
Here is a replay of me. When its so easy to get into diamond just with one BO. then plays watch it and tell me where my sticking point of play is. You can also watch my opponent and spot some sticking points of him too. I think it doesnt matter who is winning the game, because issues might be spotable anyway.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/69485-1v1-terran-protoss-kulasklamm
Looking forward for your insights, greetings from the bronze-ladder.
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Going a bit off topic first:I have never seen so many warnings in a thread before =)
Is it a new record?
To the OP: I don't quite understand your post honestly. Are you trying to get advice on how to win vs turtle players or are you just giving us information about bronze league?
Regardless I don't think it is a surprise that there will be trends in bronze league as in all leagues. At some point I expect the game to be stable and balance where there will be clear strategies/tactics that works in different leagues.
So it's a good development to see some stability in bronze league too where you can identify certain playstyles.
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Nice attention to detail.
Good to see that general players are learning the game.
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
User was warned for this post
Actually, I kinda agree with this post. I been checking the forums to try to see if anyone has been talking more about the point system and the league system, but couldn't find much.
I was kind of surprised when you check sc2ranks.com that some of the top players in points are Bronze players (Gonzo of EU has 2K points?). Well not so much in 1v1 as most of them are Diamond when you look at the top oft the rankings, but especially in say Random 2v2, a lot of the point leaders are in Bronze or Silver divisions.
It seems that if you play in a certain type of way, even if you have high points, you end up getting matched with similar people. (Low apm or something perhaps?) Perhaps that's why people end up getting stuck at the top of a certain division? I know I have been.... LoL.
Makes me want to change my playstyle and perhaps even take some losses versus doing stuff for the sake of winning (maybe like turtling and defending as the OP said)
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Kinda surprised (like "wtf") to see whom got warned for which posts in this thread. Perfectly decent and neutral replies, some of them. Ah well, bygones.
Anyways, to answer one of them - Bronze doesn't mean anything. "Just watch a few replays and he's out of Bronze"? Dude, watching replays doesn't do anything about actual in-game skill. It's simply a tool for analyzing the game. But even that requires some skills, e.g. wargame analysis requires an understanding of causality, military strategy and whatnot (which in turn requires that you've studied it). Second, you might be the greatest analyst and still be in Bronze, simply because of your Macro etc, which has nothing whatsoever to do with your understanding of the game. Getting out of Bronze primarily has to do with understanding game mechanics and applying what you know.
If you don't apply, it doesn't matter how much you know. How exactly do you get better at using Hotkeys or Macroing by watching replays? You don't, you may simply learn that it is important. You still need actual practice.
Anyways, to the OP - I agree that some trends are out there, but many of them are coincidential or simply a product of a very new game and/or low League. There's a lot of strange things happening in Bronze - I'm there myself - but just play more and better and you'll be out in no-time. Probably similar or equivalent trends for Silver and Gold too, but then it starts to even out at top Leagues.
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I've heard this same metagame logic ("If I am TvP on map X, then I open with Y, because I know they are likely to play Z") from a lot of players, at many skill levels (usually lower tier, but not always!), as if this type of logic were the main component of strategy. I really think it holds people back...
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I agree palanq, it's the main reason why there aren't more people at the top. Likewise, it's also the main reason why being in Diamond doesn't even matter that much, either, because most Platinum and Diamond - according to what I hear and see from the best Diamonds - are mostly about macro, micro and economy.
Psychology doesn't even begin to factor in until high/top Diamond, unless you're that kind of player moving through the leagues.
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OP sounds like he has a decent understanding of the game, but it might for example be the case that he is focusing on details too much / has wrong priorities. Myself, I notice a lot of lower players have 1-4 'builds' that they stick to, and aren't very good at adapting. These may depend on map and opponent's race. This was the same in SC1, and I think this is even more true in Korea. Some players can be quite fast at that build though, so it can still be tricky to spot and defend it.
I have an apm of 40-50 and i'm in platinum. So it can't be the apm
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Honestly, thank you for posting from a bronze perspective. It is sometimes very hard for people not in bronze to understand - and I think you did an excellent job posting.
In response, my brother is also a bronze player and I have been working with him since release. I have actually tried to explain to him how to play this guessing game you talk about, and to try to counter your best guess. It has defiantly helped him. While it does make for longer games, at least hes not being beaten in just a few mins.
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If you read 2 threads analyzing the games rating system it's not hard to understand why you can have a lot of games and still be in bronze (the top players in my bronze league have 500+ points and I've seen 700+). If it takes you a long time to get to a 50% win rate, the game is more confident that it's got your rating correct and thus it's more "reluctant" to move you up. It takes more wins against favored opponents to convince the game you're in the wrong league.
I think there's also an issue with it being somewhat difficult for "misplaced" players to fall out of higher leagues. I'm 20-ish bronze with 80 games, just getting to 50% win rate. I just got matched against a player who was like 69 gold and it was labeled as "teams even". I beat him pretty handily and when I looked at his profile his record was something like 9-20 with 0 points. The bottom 10 players in his league had records like 3-4, the 3 wins presumably being placement wins. It's as if, because they have so few games, the game is reluctant to move them down because it doesn't have enough info to be confident they don't belong where they are.
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I agree - being Bronze doesn't mean anything really - the game is just too new and there is a huge disbalance between divisions. Recent example: I am in Bronze (as stated earlier) and I was just matched against platinium league player (proof) and I won; now please kindly tell me what does it mean - the ladder is broken, I am on my way for promotion, the other player has reached plat only be knowing and practicing one BO or what?
It's just too easy to theorycraft, but as the game ages it's inevatable that the level of players will raise. Everybody needs to start from anywhere..meaning bronze most likely and gradually progress. As more experience is gathered we are going to see more and more predermined BOs - like if I play on X map against Y I am gonna do Z. To me it only tells me that people are making the first step from "let's turtle and get those I-win units (BCs, MS etc.) to developing strategies and trying to figure out how to get better.
Now, not everybody is playing SC2 to compete and that is something, that shall not be forgotten - many people, even in higher divisions, are only casual gamers , who want to have FUN. Surely, they like to win (who doesn't?), but the most important part is to enjoy oneself - not to compete and get additional stress in the process.
On a side note, I think that with all its awasomness (literaly) Blizzard's matching system lacks the option to just stay somewhere where one can just have fun playing. By trying to adjust who you play with, it makes you to always compete and not everbody wants that. Again the causal gamer only wants to have fun.
I would really enjoy to have the option to be in same noobie league (and stay there) just so I can go whenever I wish and play the crazy - lets make 20 BCs on 6 carriers + mothership games and have no pressure whatsoever.
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EPT
