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I am not a great player, but enjoy the game, cruising around the top-5 in my bronze division with about 90 games played.
I have noticed certain trends and patterns.
First of all, let me say that the majority of my match ups are against top bronze players with 150+ games. Most of them have twice as many games as me, and while they must have some flaws in their game and have not advanced to silver (or were demoted), they are good at certain things.
In general, the level of play has increased from a month ago. I could rush-bust 60% of people at release, now everyone has figured out how to defend a rush. I am also starting to see some semi-competent harass and micro. Unfortunately I am not playing as much so I am stuck behind the wall of 150+ game bronze players with competent macro.
One of the things I have noticed is that most players of a certain race play particular maps the same way. What I mean is that if I match against a Terran on Lost Temple, it is guaranteed to be a siege fest. (I am terran too) Defensive play rewards on this map. Just get enough ground forces to repel the first attack, line the ridge with tanks, and then mass air and expand.
What I mean is that rather than scouting, responding, and attacking, people have figured out how to defend a certain map, and utilize the same "play". Im just not seeing the same variety I used to see.
I have also found that 10 times out of 10, on Scrap Station, zerg will wall with spine crawlers and then mass mutas. My goal is to scout and make sure they are not massing lings/roaches and attempt to rush with MM before they get the SCs up.
Rather than developing good "skills", I have noticed that people are starting to customize their play to the map they are on. There is very little scouting, just defensive builds that have a good chance of success on a particular map.
In general, most players at this level are turtles. Zerg, Protoss, and Terran alike. I dont see development in response to certain units, most just wall up, mass BCs, Ultras, or Carriers/Void Rays, when given the chance, and then wait for their opponent to push.
This creates a problem for me as a player who likes to rush, sieze an advantage and then keep pushing. It seems that the game is now more about macro and patience, no one is willing to take any risks, just mass a big blob and wait.
I really hate the fact that games are taking longer.
There isnt much cheese at top of bronze. I play custom games and see it all the time from platinum and diamond players. All the time.
The game seems to be resolving into a simple decision matrix.
If I am TvP on map X, then I open with Y, because I know they are likely to play Z.
....
....
and so on.
I see it play out the same in 90% of games.
But there really isnt much improvisation going on in the mid-game. They just mass as much shit as they can, hope for an economic advantage. I try to figure out ways to fubar their expansions, but attacking and macroing is harder than turtling and macroing.
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How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
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Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting.
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well maybe if you didn't rush and tried to work on playing a bit more of an economic game then you might not be stuck in bronze league. :\
edit: to clarify economic game doesn't mean turtling, get an expansion up and etc and doing harass then pushing in.
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If your opponents are always doing the same things on certain maps, it should be easy for you to find a strategy to circumvent them.
For example if your opponent is spine crawlering off on Scrap Station (you expect Mutas), just get a reactored Starport and start massing vikings. You should be able to get out ~4 vikings before his Mutas pop and completely fuck all of his overlords, supply-blocking him. Use this time to make even more Vikings and get some tanks so you can siege his Spines. Push his base with 8 Vikings and marine/tank - should be an easy win.
OR just expand ASAP and mass turrets everywhere. Then he'll be stuck turtled into his one base, heavily invested into harass units that cannot do any damage, while you have two bases and haven't wasted any gas.
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Post a replay and someone will tell you why you are stuck in bronze.
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One thing I'd do is check the profiles of the people I'm playing. Make sure they're bronze first, to make sure the trends are properly developing in the Bronze league and it's not just you matching up against the occasional Silver/Gold leaguer. Otherwise I'm not too surprised turtling is very common - it's probably the easiest way to play, the check-list approach to defense. Thinking: I need to worry about this, this, this, this and this. So I made this, this, this, and this and suddenly I'm safe from everything.
If you're looking to punish a turtling player, look for ways in. Try using MMM to do drops in the back of their base, or if they're bad with managing detection, a nuke would probably crack them wide open. If they're turtling hard on one base, expand yourself. If they're expanding you can probably nip away at it, very very few defenses are impregnable, especially at that level I imagine.
If you're fighting TvT, for example, and they've ringed their base around with turrets and are going mass BC (Scan is an incredible scouting tool), get a bunch of vikings - they eat BCs alive.
This creates a problem for me as a player who likes to rush, sieze an advantage and then keep pushing. It seems that the game is now more about macro and patience, no one is willing to take any risks, just mass a big blob and wait.
Try and refine your timings a little. Find ways to cut corners and get some units out a little bit faster. One of the best ways I've found to improve is to watch a lot of Starcraft. See what builds the pros are doing and try to work out why they're doing them. In the early game, one or two more units can really swing the balance. If it fails, fall back, or deny them an expansion if they're relying on static defense like spine crawlers. Look towards siege tanks to break their turtling.
Hope some of this is somewhat helpful :D
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I can't tell if this thread is a joke or not... "Top of Bronze"?
No offense, 'cause I totally understand that not everyone is experienced/skilled at RTS, but you really can't expect much better play from people at that level. If they are so predictable, you should be able to see right through them, win the games and move up to a more entertaining league.
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With all the defensive play, early expanding seems very powerful against the opponents you are seeing. You seem like a pretty intelligent player, you should be able to find some weaknesses in the builds. Without looking at specifics, you might have success with something like an 18cc into a siege tank contain to starve them out, finishing with slowing creeping siege in, or if you way out base them, throwing money at the problem, or finishing with a high tech push. If you want the game to go faster, perhaps try some harassment instead of a push. Hellion dropping is quite effective, as are reapers against zerg, and banshee against protoss. Also, at lower leagues, I think a solid strategy or plan is going to benefit you more than sheer volume of games played.
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On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting.
agree.
dont want to be the "diamond pro" laughing at the "bronze noobs"
but most people at bronze are not very efficient and unelss we are given a replay we seriously can't judge anything.
There could be heavy macro mistakes in both parties that lead to an obscured gameplay.
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On September 01 2010 12:20 Uranium wrote:
edit: Don't know why I assumed you play Terran.
Probably because OP stated he plays Terran? =p
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?.
Mechanics.
I spent my first 100 games in the beta in copper, back when copper still existed.
I was so excited to play SC2 when I heard about the beta that I tried getting into brood war during my wait. I massed games of brood war. Played hundreds. Never made it past D- on iccup. Of course, it also occurred to me that many of the D and above level brood war players had been playing brood war for...Quite some time!
My mechanics in SC2 were also my limiting factor. It's easy to be limited by mechanics. Intelligence and mechanics have nothing to do with each other, but BOTH are requisite for high level play.
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Being in the lower leagues is less about strategy and more about mechanics.
Turtling in the lower leagues is natural, as most people aren't confident/comfortable with their ability to multitask effectively.
You seem to be competent enough in your analysis of whats going on, so just focus on your macro/multitasking.
I'm sure you'll eventually move up the ranks. GL!
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most new players have a tendency to turtle up and not push out until they have a huge ass army
they're just scared to move out and lose everything
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
intelligence doesent dictate sc skill lol.
Also i know u like short rush based games but i find no beauty in them. when u get better you realize how tough and how much more skill it takes to play a solid macro game over a short rush game
also macro games are not turtling and building a massive blob. Its the art of holding of with the bare minimium until a late game plan.
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The title of this thread made me laugh out loud so much :D
Just sounds so epic doesn't it: "In Bronze... trends are emerging."
Hehe was pleasantly surprised to find it was an intelligent post and actually a pretty good read, thanks OP 
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Interesting to see this - but about what I expected really. It's how I used to play when I was probably around bronze skill level - turtle and tech + mass, and hope for the best lol
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Cool post, but pretty much any rts games are a turtle fest at the lower levels of play.
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pros adapt their play to the map as well. If you like being the aggressor, there are smart and safe ways to be aggressive. The chances of you just outright beating someone in the first few minutes of the game will shrink, but as you learn you will be able to put yourself at an advantage to be used later in the game.
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On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting.
He's saying people are defending more, and thus it's harder to be aggressive. He's also saying Bronze players are somewhat more organized than before, having an actual plan and getting certain composition for certain matchups. At bronze, I would expect people doing random shit without any clue. I'd expect the turtling -> tech part, but I wouldn't things like the map trends that the OP talks about
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?
bnet drop, soft crashes, and bsod baby, im never getting out of silver
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I could be wrong here, but this doesn't appear to be a post asking for help. What I got from the OP was just an observation of his experience, and I thought that it was pretty interesting. Sure, game evolution in the pro scene is awesome and great, but I for one am very interested in how the meta-games of lower leagues are evolving and adapting. The fact that the OP has noticed consistency in the behavior of his opponents suggests that Blizzard's experiment of segregated leagues is largely successful, in that the meta-game can develop in different ways along the different skill levels of players.
TL;DR Was the OP really asking for help? I think you guys missed the point of his post. Evolution of the Bronze League meta-game is cool.
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On September 01 2010 12:33 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?. Mechanics. I spent my first 100 games in the beta in copper, back when copper still existed. I was so excited to play SC2 when I heard about the beta that I tried getting into brood war during my wait. I massed games of brood war. Played hundreds. Never made it past D- on iccup. Of course, it also occurred to me that many of the D and above level brood war players had been playing brood war for...Quite some time! My mechanics in SC2 were also my limiting factor. It's easy to be limited by mechanics. Intelligence and mechanics have nothing to do with each other, but BOTH are requisite for high level play.
I would disagree really.
Like if your smart or try to get better, you just shouldnt be in bronze. With intelligence it seems just a logical step to be able to execute things well enough to make it into Gold at least. I mean its all just logical steps to say, "I want to win. How can I win better." And then improvement ensues. And if you think that, and then put it into practice I mean no reason what soever you couldnt improve. Speed would just come with time of knowing what your doing. Fuck, you could click on all the icons, but if your smart you could get to Diamond.
Im not saying you suck, but I am just letting you know, that you are not putting your ability to write intelligently to good use, by just thinking about Starcraft and getting better.
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On September 01 2010 12:40 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:33 ltortoise wrote:On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?. Mechanics. I spent my first 100 games in the beta in copper, back when copper still existed. I was so excited to play SC2 when I heard about the beta that I tried getting into brood war during my wait. I massed games of brood war. Played hundreds. Never made it past D- on iccup. Of course, it also occurred to me that many of the D and above level brood war players had been playing brood war for...Quite some time! My mechanics in SC2 were also my limiting factor. It's easy to be limited by mechanics. Intelligence and mechanics have nothing to do with each other, but BOTH are requisite for high level play. I would disagree really. Like if your smart or try to get better, you just shouldnt be in bronze. With intelligence it seems just a logical step to be able to execute things well enough to make it into Gold at least. I mean its all just logical steps to say, "I want to win. How can I win better." And then improvement ensues. And if you think that, and then put it into practice I mean no reason what soever you couldnt improve. Speed would just come with time of knowing what your doing. Fuck, you could click on all the icons, but if your smart you could get to Diamond. Im not saying you suck, but I am just letting you know, that you are not putting your ability to write intelligently to good use, by just thinking about Starcraft and getting better.
Don't know why you are quoting me. I am not the OP. Also, I am not in gold. I'm diamond (whatever that means). I said my my first 100 games were in copper. I didn't say I stayed there.
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I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon here. I don't get how you can be a functioning, intelligent human being and be stuck in bronze with 100+ games. You can do literally anything and get out of bronze. I have a friend whose strategy is to rush two-robo mass immortal and he just got to plat.
Just 4gate, 3rax, or 1base muta and do the same thing every game and you'll get to at least gold. Just watch a replay and copy it.
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On September 01 2010 12:12 sabre_X wrote:This creates a problem for me as a player who likes to rush, sieze an advantage and then keep pushing. It seems that the game is now more about macro and patience, no one is willing to take any risks, just mass a big blob and wait.
This raises red flags for me. It's really easy to get a big advantage and continually throw it away with misguided attacks. Without watching your replays I can't say much, but if you feel like you're just throwing your units into a wall continually until your oppenent pushes and kilss you, you need to stop tossing your units away. If your opponent wants to turtle, deny his expansion, expand yourself, get your production up, get maxed, and either wait for him to come to you, or roll him over with your huge macro advantage.
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are we safe to assume no one mh in bronze? i mean... if u mh and still in bronze... dats pretty sad.
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On September 01 2010 12:44 iEchoic wrote:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon here. I don't get how you can be a functioning, intelligent human being and be stuck in bronze with 100+ games. You can do literally anything and get out of bronze. I have a friend whose strategy is to rush two-robo mass immortal and he just got to plat.
Just 4gate, 3rax, or 1base muta and do the same thing every game and you'll get to at least gold. Just watch a replay and copy it.
Not if hes simply not trying hard enough on mechanics. Some people just think 'i'll do some rush and be a baller!' or 'I'll harass like a boss!' instead of just thinking ' IM GONNA GET A TON OF CRAP AND FUCK THIS GUYS FACE'
some of the people that cant get out of bronze are the ones too obsessed with tactics, build orders, harass and micro to simply macro and win. At bronze you dont even need a BO, just see what your opponents doing, expand if he doesnt have enough shit to kill you, make more unit producing structures if he does, and just constantly keep making units. that is literally enough to get you into gold at least
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theres trends in every division, he's stuck in bronze because he's not competent in beating those. Just like the majority of people posting here are stuck at their rank because they havn't managed to beat all of trends they are facing.
Starcraft 2 is a game of FOTM, the rate of which people adopt what they see is alarming, QXC phoenixes/ Reaper Rushing / Tank Viking. These were discovered and utilized by very few people then one showmatch and boom thousands of people are using these strats non stop. I guess WoW arena's was much the same way...
People discredit Bronze players or any level for that matter, they are executing their builds competently they just don't ever think outside the box or expand from their. I'd be fucking stumped if i saw a wall of spine crawlers and had no air...
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On September 01 2010 12:47 TheAntZ wrote:just see what your opponents doing, expand if he doesnt have enough shit to kill you, make more unit producing structures if he does, and just constantly keep making units.
Wait a second. Isn't that basically what Flash does?
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I really do not understand how people can play over 100 games and still in Bronze (with the current population, I am sure later even the bronze league will improve as the game ages.)
All you need to advance to silver or gold is basic things like building more workers, spend your money... Things that you must have learnt if you have already played over 100 games (in 1v1).
For example, if you do void ray rush every time, and spend your money fast, I think you will be out of bronze in 1 to 2 days. Its not suppose to take hundreds of games, or there is a design problem of the league system.
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On September 01 2010 12:49 Whomp wrote:
People discredit Bronze players or any level for that matter, they are executing their builds competently they just don't ever think outside the box or expand from their. I'd be fucking stumped if i saw a wall of spine crawlers and had no air...
A player who execute his build competently won't be in bronze. Seriously, you can have 1 build for each match up and make it to diamond...
This is assuming the build is actually decent, though
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On September 01 2010 12:49 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:47 TheAntZ wrote:just see what your opponents doing, expand if he doesnt have enough shit to kill you, make more unit producing structures if he does, and just constantly keep making units. Wait a second. Isn't that basically what Flash does?
essentially I guess, but im sure that theres a ton more people more insightful then me who can tell you exactly how much more complicated his gameplay/plan is 
However doing the things i said are really easy if you just dont think about 'i want to do this cute tactic' or 'i want to open with this build and harass with my reapers' or something. When you are simply thinking 'i gotta make a ton of crap and slam it into his ass' its a lot easier to keep your money down and bust out with giant armies while your opponent stockpiles 5000/5000 while doin some dumb ghost drop
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I smiled when I saw "top bronze".
Interesting reflections on whats going on at this level, though.
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On September 01 2010 12:40 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:33 ltortoise wrote:On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?. Mechanics. I spent my first 100 games in the beta in copper, back when copper still existed. I was so excited to play SC2 when I heard about the beta that I tried getting into brood war during my wait. I massed games of brood war. Played hundreds. Never made it past D- on iccup. Of course, it also occurred to me that many of the D and above level brood war players had been playing brood war for...Quite some time! My mechanics in SC2 were also my limiting factor. It's easy to be limited by mechanics. Intelligence and mechanics have nothing to do with each other, but BOTH are requisite for high level play. I would disagree really. Like if your smart or try to get better, you just shouldnt be in bronze. With intelligence it seems just a logical step to be able to execute things well enough to make it into Gold at least. I mean its all just logical steps to say, "I want to win. How can I win better." And then improvement ensues. And if you think that, and then put it into practice I mean no reason what soever you couldnt improve. Speed would just come with time of knowing what your doing. Fuck, you could click on all the icons, but if your smart you could get to Diamond. Im not saying you suck, but I am just letting you know, that you are not putting your ability to write intelligently to good use, by just thinking about Starcraft and getting better.
This is just so retarded. Beyond you using video game proficiency as a leverage against intelligence, what you actually posted just speaks poorly of your own.
If your coming to SC2 from another competitive game, coming from a competitive background, with moderate proficiency, then yes, after a hundred games, if your not in gold, one might have a case against your intellect. Even when I first came to BW I got D+ extremely fast, even though I had no prior experience. And I came from WoW arenas LOL.
If you've been gaming on a semi-competitive level for most of your later childhood and adult life, you've acquired the muscle memory and other skills to learn the skills, and these will make learning SC2, even from scratch, incredibly easy.
However
On the other hand, if you haven't if you've been playing either casual or just not competitive games (single player games, casual FPS, etc), then learning the mechanics of SC2 is going to be a challenge. Even the interface is going to confuse you. 100 games and still in bronze is easily possible.
@OP Hatas gonna hate :p.
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On September 01 2010 12:38 Purind wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting. He's saying people are defending more, and thus it's harder to be aggressive. He's also saying Bronze players are somewhat more organized than before, having an actual plan and getting certain composition for certain matchups. At bronze, I would expect people doing random shit without any clue. I'd expect the turtling -> tech part, but I wouldn't things like the map trends that the OP talks about
They do plenty of random stuff in my experience though I'm only around 20 bronze atm. I just had a Zerg opponent go something like 9 hatch (it was half done when my 9 scout found him) before pool and then tech straight to Ultras. Or Ultra...I should use the singular since there was exactly 1 Ultra up by the time I got through spine crawlers blocking his ramp. Pretty sure he didn't produce more than maayyyybe 20 lings even after I started rallying my zealots straight into his base. The Ultras have probably worked plenty for him in the past because his opponents didn't appreciate how vulnerable he makes himself early. On the other hand, if he had a clue he'd have known better than to continue throwing all his money at tech once I started being so aggressive. I don't think he even attempted to scout me.
On the subject of map trends, I do see Terrans parking siege tanks on cliffs, Toss and Terran both going heavy air on Scrap Station. Otherwise it's mostly turtle -> tech.
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The comments about the league system being broken if you're still in bronze after 100 games is lolz, some people always have to be at the bottom - it isn't just a constant merry go round of brand new players.
I have friends who plain suck at this game, despite being insightful in strategy discussions within our group. I think many of you don't know what it's like to be new to a genre, game, or video games in general .
I will say it's interesting how bronze has changed, and I've noticed it myself watching my brother play. He went from being proxied or all-ined every game, to actually having a chance to tech and expand.
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The fact remains. It is BRONZE. Watch some of your replays (you get an achievement for the first one!) and figure out what to improve on. Watch Day[9] to better understand the game and certain situations and practice a specific build that isn't an all in.
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On September 01 2010 13:05 Cohedra wrote:
The comments about the league system being broken if you're still in bronze after 100 games is lolz
Are we reading the same thread? Not a single person said that the system is broken.
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Why are half the posts in this thread about posting a replay and evaluating games? People seriously lack reading comprehension. The OP is merely stating that he is seeing trends in the level of play within the bronze league.
Also, if you start your post by saying "Don't want to sound like a douche, but...", chances are, you're sounding like a douche.
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you can have one build for ALL matchups and make it to diamond. specially if your zerg since your only changing small things like how soon your spire comes out/whether your getting banes or not. climbing to the top of diamond however... lol.
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On September 01 2010 12:33 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?. Mechanics. I spent my first 100 games in the beta in copper, back when copper still existed. I was so excited to play SC2 when I heard about the beta that I tried getting into brood war during my wait. I massed games of brood war. Played hundreds. Never made it past D- on iccup. Of course, it also occurred to me that many of the D and above level brood war players had been playing brood war for...Quite some time! My mechanics in SC2 were also my limiting factor. It's easy to be limited by mechanics. Intelligence and mechanics have nothing to do with each other, but BOTH are requisite for high level play.
errrr
you played 100 games and you were still in copper?
-__________-"
I don't think your the same "gamer" as the rest of us.
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On September 01 2010 12:12 sabre_X wrote:
There isnt much cheese at top of bronze. I play custom games and see it all the time from platinum and diamond players. All the time.
I will often times cheese bronze level player because I simply don't want to play them.
You should focus on macro play, it seems like it would be easy to get into gold if you can keep your resources low and get a large army faster than your opponent. What most bronze league players do is turtle up, and try and get a 200/200 army on a single base. They wait a long time to expand and are very slow about getting a large army, if you play off of two or three bases you can easily out macro them and crush them under your boots.
Many bronze players need to make the step from just trying to get a big army to trying to get a big army quickly. Then they can worry about composition, then builds, then counters, then timings and upgrades. Then they will be in platinum.
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On September 01 2010 13:00 Half wrote:
If your coming to SC2 from another competitive game RTS/RPG, coming from a competitive background, with moderate proficiency, then yes, after a hundred games, if your not in gold, one might have a case against your intellect. Even when I first came to BW I got D+ extremely fast, even though I had no prior experience. And I came from WoW arenas LOL.
If you've been gaming on a semi-competitive level for most of your later childhood and adult life, you've acquired the muscle memory and other skills to learn the skills, and these will make learning SC2, even from scratch, incredibly easy.
fix'd
I used to be a very high level fps player, and still have great twitch at my old 20+ age (sad that being semi-pro fps is easier at 13 than at 23) and I am objectively mediocre at SC2. I think the game types require different skillsets, but then again maybe I am just old...
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thanks for the unique insight into the bronze league, OP. but why are you still in bronze?
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On September 01 2010 12:52 DarkwindHK wrote:
Its not suppose to take hundreds of games, or there is a design problem of the league system.
I may have worded my response poorly, as he didn't actually accuse the system of being broken. I only wanted to represent that there will always be people with a large number of games in the bottom league. In Warcraft 3 there were always people < level 10 that played 100s of games, but couldn't improve past what many considered the first noticeable division in skill.
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lol you noe wat this means guys for us old diamond leaguer right? If what OP observe is indeed correct, it means Sc2 skill level is rising. Thus, being in diamond is now more ........(fk, mind black. What's the word that means exclusive/better.. argh).
EDIT: + Show Spoiler +PRESTIGIOUS zomg ty ty for reminding me
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i'm not going to bash someone because they're bronze, i think that it's really cool that at lower levels of skill the metagame and style of play is way, way different. it feels kind of strange not being able to relate to it at all
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OP here...
I thank many people who appreciated my insight. A bunch of people who said that getting out of Bronze is just a matter of intelligence, I think are a bit short sighted. I am an engineer in real life, but am not a gamer. Every once in a blue moon I pick up a title and start playing, but I have no RTS background. (I was pretty scary at Unreal Tournament about 10 years ago.) A friend of mine who is a Diamond, turned me on to the game.
Furthermore, the statistics show that 40-50% of people are in bronze, so being at the top of bronze puts me somewhere near the middle. I hear lots of "all you need to do is___, and you'll be in platinum". I can understand why people say this, but its a bit short sighted. There are skills you mastered during BW or WC or SC2 beta, that I don't have.
My observation is that there are ALOT of players with 150+ games still stuck in Bronze. I am fortunate that I am not one of them. I hope to progress to silver within next 20 games... But the observation is that playstyle has matured in Bronze, and that getting to silver is not necessarily easy for someone who just picked up a copy in Best Buy and never played RTS before. Also, being older, I have less time and inclination to devote myself to it. There are lots of other good things in life... this is a minor pastime, but an enjoyable one.
Think about this: 40-50% of people are in Bronze. Getting to silver takes a bit more than competent build order. I can say that the top bronze players are competent in their own way, and have gotten better over the month since release. Moving out of Bronze is not as easy as it was a month ago. The bar is higher (for any division). You have to progress faster than everyone else at your level to advance.
While I wasn't asking for advice, I appreciate some of the good suggestions. If I had to summarize why I believe I am not in silver I would say it is because I dont have enough game knowledge, and havent practiced a wide range of options to respond to various scenarios.
For instance, I opened with a 3 Raxx against a zerg on kulas ravine. He early expanded and I put the pressure on an kept knocking down his expo, but couldnt get his main. He eventually got an expo. By the time I had massed a pretty formidable MM ball, he had amassed a large amount of burrowed banelings as a defensive force. I marched my army on his expo and down went 80% of my army! The tides turned just like that!
Honestly, I'm not sure what to do in that situation. Its just situational knowledge and awareness that I lack.
And of course mistakes! In another game, I expanded to a rocked off area. And my main force was destroyed (as was his). I was planning on destroying the rocks at the last minute (to offer some protection to the SCVs in there, but because my force was destroyed, I couldnt get my other SCVs to the expo. There were 20 SCVs zapping the big rock. Just stupid. I had no money to build.
Of course experienced players are not improvising as they go. They have a sequence already worked out. I do not. It was more like... hmm maybe I should expand.. I made the judgement to keep the rocks in place, which was a bad idea, thus I lost. Lots of things like that happen to me.
Anyway, thanks for reading.
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On September 01 2010 13:26 me_viet wrote:
lol you noe wat this means guys for us old diamond leaguer right? If what OP observe is indeed correct, it means Sc2 skill level is rising. Thus, being in diamond is now more ........(fk, mind black. What's the word that means exclusive/better.. argh).
prestigious ???
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On September 01 2010 13:29 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 13:26 me_viet wrote:
lol you noe wat this means guys for us old diamond leaguer right? If what OP observe is indeed correct, it means Sc2 skill level is rising. Thus, being in diamond is now more ........(fk, mind black. What's the word that means exclusive/better.. argh). prestigious ???
YES OMG THAT"S THE ONE, lol i had it on the tip of my tounge but then i saw the gorilla video http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148952 as i was typing and it was gone =[
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If, as you say, you can predict what they are going to do in 90% of games then you should be winning most if not all of them. My general advise would be to expand. I had a pleasure of playing against some bronze players in 2v2s and they could stay on one base like forever.
Think that if you expand and build more unit producing structures then even if your attack fails it will at least do some damage and you'll have enough income and production capacity to quickly recreate your army, while they won't be in this comfortable situation.
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OP, have you EVER played an RTS before SC2?
If not, then I sort of understand.
If you HAVE EVER played a touch of BW or Age of Empires then I flat out don't believe you can be both browsing TL and in Bronze after 100 games.
Why don't you post a replay or two, its likely you are doing something extremely wrong. Basic macro should easily get you out of Bronze league.
I have friends who never played more than a few games of SC1 in their lives and a little AOE who are now solid in platinum after me giving them a few tips.
Give us some reps and we'll help you.
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On September 01 2010 13:11 junemermaid wrote:
Why are half the posts in this thread about posting a replay and evaluating games? People seriously lack reading comprehension. The OP is merely stating that he is seeing trends in the level of play within the bronze league.
Also, if you start your post by saying "Don't want to sound like a douche, but...", chances are, you're sounding like a douche.
well said. couldnt agree more.
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A replay is worth five hundred wall of text posts.
Also, this happens in every competitive game. Just because you play a lot of games doesn't mean you'll get better. There is a difference between playing and practicing. Practice is work. It goes beyond playing. Most people who ever play chess, even enthusiasts, will get to a certain skill level and never improve, because they always play and never practice.
There will be players with 1000 games in Bronze who will never leave it.
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I just got out of bronze myself today was in the high 700's to mid 800 points for last 2 weeks. I too noticed lots of similar strats amongst opponents. I jumped from #1 in my bronze division to top ten in my silver division lol. Honestly it seems like it holds you in your division for a long time even if you have improved. I'm no pro obviously but i have played some god awfull high silvers and some bronze players that way out classed me. Not sure how this is in higher divisions but i would immagine it is similar. A player ranked 50 in silver for instance might be far worse than a top 10 in bronze. Or a top gold might be better than mid platinums. Just seems that the divisions don't accurately represent someones regional standing.
To the point that everyone should be able to get to gold in 100 games, i would dispute that comment. If that were the case then new gold divisions would pop up. Everyone is trying to climb up the ladder but there isn't room for everyone up top. I hope to hit gold myself this month and notice things i need to work on but if the people above all notice their mistakes faster, it makes bumping them harder.
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I don't know how hard it is to get outta bronze, but I may just be ignorant. A couple of my friends who have never played any kind of RTS are now in diamond, and my worst friend is in gold after around 90 games. If you take the game semi seriously and you know the basics, gold is easy as hell.
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so you can't rush anymore and thats why u whine?
don't care about the metagame - play a safe build and adapt...
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On September 01 2010 13:46 holy_war wrote:
I don't know how hard it is to get outta bronze, but I may just be ignorant. A couple of my friends who have never played any kind of RTS are now in diamond, and my worst friend is in gold after around 90 games. If you take the game semi seriously and you know the basics, gold is easy as hell.
Well you guys probably help each other out. How old are you? High school? College?
I remember when I was in high school, I played a game of "concentration" (maybe you dont remember that old card game) with a ten year old. I had lots of other things on my mind that an 18 yo typically does, but as a ten year old, his whole "reason to be" at that instant was how to beat a teen ager. (I was preoccupied with figuring out how to get into his older sister's pants, so I wasnt playing to my full ability.) I lost.
But anyway, the older you get, the more things are on your plate, and the less immediate something like SC2 seems.
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Don't worry too much OP. This is TL, a starcraft community thats been around for some time. This is where all the SC junkies chill and talk about SC. Of course we just assume you have some RTS background.
People here know Flash, Boxer, OSL and even some IdrA rage quotes. This is where I can pull out my calculator and tell someone exactly how many reapers you are going to have after the patch 1.1 if you want to maintain the timing, and without feeling like a total geek(not denying, just less conscious LOL.)
Your intelligent insight on bronze league did not help either. Its well written (which I find hard to believe because I'm studying eng and most of us are not good at writing) and most of us are going "why cant a person like this get off a bronze league?"
it was an entertaining read. I personally think its like this on every league, except maybe the builds are better polished or better executed.
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First off some reps would help alot but against what I'm picturing as like sitting on 1/2 base wallin yourself in and just make stuff. A good way around that IMO is get a very early expo and with that you should be able to outproduce them. Keep expanding but at least keep an army enough to deal with his, and from there macro him to death. If your up 4-5 bases to 1-2 you don't need to micro basically just amove and eventually you'd win unless you tried a-moving tanks into broodlords
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On September 01 2010 13:29 sabre_X wrote:
OP here...
I thank many people who appreciated my insight. A bunch of people who said that getting out of Bronze is just a matter of intelligence, I think are a bit short sighted. I am an engineer in real life, but am not a gamer. Every once in a blue moon I pick up a title and start playing, but I have no RTS background. (I was pretty scary at Unreal Tournament about 10 years ago.) A friend of mine who is a Diamond, turned me on to the game.
Furthermore, the statistics show that 40-50% of people are in bronze, so being at the top of bronze puts me somewhere near the middle. I hear lots of "all you need to do is___, and you'll be in platinum". I can understand why people say this, but its a bit short sighted. There are skills you mastered during BW or WC or SC2 beta, that I don't have.
My observation is that there are ALOT of players with 150+ games still stuck in Bronze. I am fortunate that I am not one of them. I hope to progress to silver within next 20 games... But the observation is that playstyle has matured in Bronze, and that getting to silver is not necessarily easy for someone who just picked up a copy in Best Buy and never played RTS before. Also, being older, I have less time and inclination to devote myself to it. There are lots of other good things in life... this is a minor pastime, but an enjoyable one.
Think about this: 40-50% of people are in Bronze. Getting to silver takes a bit more than competent build order. I can say that the top bronze players are competent in their own way, and have gotten better over the month since release. Moving out of Bronze is not as easy as it was a month ago. The bar is higher (for any division). You have to progress faster than everyone else at your level to advance.
While I wasn't asking for advice, I appreciate some of the good suggestions. If I had to summarize why I believe I am not in silver I would say it is because I dont have enough game knowledge, and havent practiced a wide range of options to respond to various scenarios.
For instance, I opened with a 3 Raxx against a zerg on kulas ravine. He early expanded and I put the pressure on an kept knocking down his expo, but couldnt get his main. He eventually got an expo. By the time I had massed a pretty formidable MM ball, he had amassed a large amount of burrowed banelings as a defensive force. I marched my army on his expo and down went 80% of my army! The tides turned just like that!
Honestly, I'm not sure what to do in that situation. Its just situational knowledge and awareness that I lack.
And of course mistakes! In another game, I expanded to a rocked off area. And my main force was destroyed (as was his). I was planning on destroying the rocks at the last minute (to offer some protection to the SCVs in there, but because my force was destroyed, I couldnt get my other SCVs to the expo. There were 20 SCVs zapping the big rock. Just stupid. I had no money to build.
Of course experienced players are not improvising as they go. They have a sequence already worked out. I do not. It was more like... hmm maybe I should expand.. I made the judgement to keep the rocks in place, which was a bad idea, thus I lost. Lots of things like that happen to me.
Anyway, thanks for reading.
with zergs like that... a raven or 2 is invaluable, it doesnt matter what the match up is, i like to get a raven with my forces on 2nd push (first push is usually timed before they can get cloaked units, unless going for a straight rush)
great job on picking up on the fast expand and constantly denying him the expansion
with expanding, the first expansion is always the hardest, i think it was day[9] saying in one of his eps that the hardest thing to learn is when to get your 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc expansions, and also when to attack, when to pull back... i played the beta for the entire time it was up, enjoyed BW, and this is something im yet to master, or understand... i know if a zerg goes hatch first, i need to put pressure on, but other than that, no freaking idea
but i have to say, that's one of the most well written and thought out posts ive seen in a long time and it's provided me, and hopefully some others, with an interesting and insiteful idea of what it's like at other levels of the game
most of the time posts like this are "OMG F*CKING RUSHERS IN BRONZE!!!" or some rage post like that
keep up the good work OP :D
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I've been playing lots of 2v2s with old buddies of mine that have zero experience with SC, and it's interesting to see what a different experience they get in the lower leagues. My friends are having trouble winning games in bronze, and it's not like they're idiots or bad at video games. One thing that strikes me about bronze play, and that I remember from when I was in bronze in the beta (which is more like silver/gold nowadays), is how totally variable the games are.
The bronze experience is very chaotic with large single-unit armies. People also find out tactics that are pretty effective, but when you mix that with poor mechanics and weak economy, it makes for a pretty unpredictable game. For people who don't have the time or knowledge to refine their mechanics, bronze can be pretty intense and I don't think it's an environment that's very conducive to learning the proper way to play the game.
It's interesting to hear the perspective of someone in bronze, since that is where a large number of players fall.
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On September 01 2010 13:52 sabre_X wrote:
But anyway, the older you get, the more things are on your plate, and the less immediate something like SC2 seems.
qft, i keep telling myself I just have to let video games become a thing of the past and focus, but its not happening...
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Don't want to sound like a douche, but... I'm a douche.
On topic, I'm not really surprised by this. Everyone I work with plays StarCraft 2, but I'm the only one who is remotely high Diamond, let alone Diamond, but it seems to me that trends are emerging everywhere and they are completely bizarre and off the wall. Just from what my friends are telling me about their games, I try to help them out, give them advice, but it seems that most of it is useless because these lower level players are playing the game completely different than what I'm used to.
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god, I only read the first page because it was all i could stand
the guy posts some observation (that's literally all it is - his observations), and then EVERY SINGLE POST jumps on him about some irrelevant bullshit "man you're in bronze" "lol it's just bronze league". well that's great you elitist fucks you didn't have to reply to it, he didn't ask for your opinion on being in the bronze league.
i went through the entire thread and count like 4 people that weren't elitist shitheads
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On September 01 2010 13:52 cive wrote:
Don't worry too much OP. This is TL, a starcraft community thats been around for some time. This is where all the SC junkies chill and talk about SC. Of course we just assume you have some RTS background.
People here know Flash, Boxer, OSL and even some IdrA rage quotes. This is where I can pull out my calculator and tell someone exactly how many reapers you are going to have after the patch 1.1 if you want to maintain the timing, and without feeling like a total geek(not denying, just less conscious LOL.)
WE ARE AWESOME! xD
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They do plenty of random stuff in my experience though I'm only around 20 bronze atm. I just had a Zerg opponent go something like 9 hatch (it was half done when my 9 scout found him) before pool and then tech straight to Ultras. Or Ultra...I should use the singular since there was exactly 1 Ultra up by the time I got through spine crawlers blocking his ramp. Pretty sure he didn't produce more than maayyyybe 20 lings even after I started rallying my zealots straight into his base. The Ultras have probably worked plenty for him in the past because his opponents didn't appreciate how vulnerable he makes himself early. On the other hand, if he had a clue he'd have known better than to continue throwing all his money at tech once I started being so aggressive. I don't think he even attempted to scout me.
Haha, I had a match around thirty bronze that my opponent was favored in. His build wast a 12ish expand and rush to dual port battle cruisers with ups without ever making a single non-worker unit before the battle cruisers.
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If you enjoy rush, but is not effective anymore, then learn some timming pushes. There is plenty of info in the strategy forum.
edit: And dont think people upper in the leagues dont improvise, some of them do it a lot, but not in build orders.
I think you could enjoy more some 2v2 with your diamond friend, there you can ge the gimnastics required to be stable in above leagues, its not the same game, but its the same macro.
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how do u regular TL.net and stay in bronze?
biggest difference imo between a bronze and a gold level player-
the gold level player stays on his macro/production game while he is micro'ing.
A bronze player will focus hardcore on his "omg look at my reaper with 25 kills!" and forget to produce....
This is what seperates my friend and i when we play for fun... he understands all the concepts of micro... but completely forgets about macro'ing up. our games usually consist of fairly close early games... with my eventually having 3-4x as many expo's and then running him over...
imo in bronze level... focus on containing and expanding... then just mass whatever u want when u have an insane econ and win no matter if u micro or not...
Im not saying to turtle... but contain.
Another thing = in bronze harrassment will usually end the game because your opponent gets frazzled and starts getting nervous and chasing ur 2-3 harassers with his whole army of 50 units and will eventually get tired of making more workers and will quit lol.
one thing that is dangerous about being in lower divisions and frequenting this forum is you become too smart for your own league. "omg i was gonna push but he has 4 warpgates! i better retreat" too bad when you watch the replay u see he has 4 warpgates and 2 zealots with a stalker haha... dont look at their bases and start over analyzing ull just confuse urself lol
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On September 01 2010 14:07 travis wrote:
god, I only read the first page because it was all i could stand
the guy posts some observation (that's literally all it is - his observations), and then EVERY SINGLE POST jumps on him about some irrelevant bullshit "man you're in bronze" "lol it's just bronze league". well that's great you elitist fucks you didn't have to reply to it, he didn't ask for your opinion on being in the bronze league.
i went through the entire thread and count like 4 people that weren't elitist shitheads
"I only read the first page"
"I went through the enitre thread"
...Wait, what?
That said, I actually agree, travis. "OMG LOL YOU'RE IN BRONZE SO I'M GOING TO BE MAKE A POINTLESS POST AND RESTATE THAT YOU'RE IN BRONZE EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE THAT'S NOT FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE WOULD HAVE READ IT IN THE OP" is basically a summary of this entire thread. There's no sane reason to expect everyone on TL to be Diamond or Gold or any other league, and there's no reason for anyone to disregard his post- which I actually thought was pretty damned interesting to read- based on his league.
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On September 01 2010 14:07 travis wrote:
god, I only read the first page because it was all i could stand
the guy posts some observation (that's literally all it is - his observations), and then EVERY SINGLE POST jumps on him about some irrelevant bullshit "man you're in bronze" "lol it's just bronze league". well that's great you elitist fucks you didn't have to reply to it, he didn't ask for your opinion on being in the bronze league.
i went through the entire thread and count like 4 people that weren't elitist shitheads
I couldn't agree more, its bad rep for TL when people post short answers such as "your bronze stfu im gosu plat."
I thought his post was very well informed and i am not surprised one bit by your observations. While learning sc2 you have to always understand your advantages. Probably the hardest one at a very new level is understanding your map control advantage. Just by seeing 2 spines down should be a huge tip off. Instead of trying to end the game quick, be patient, and your your map control to take more expansions.
I am sure though at the lower levels as you get more bases it gets really hard to keep your money low, so make sure you focus at least 80% of your energy and apm to making sure you have a ton of units, they don't even have to be the perfect unit compositions, just so long as you have just "stuff" as day9 would say.
Just keep trying to stay 1 full base ahead, scout, and get static d if you sense mutas/dts/anything sneaky.
Thanks for the insight.
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All of you idiots who fail to read the OP and think he's asking for advice should go request a ban from nearest mod :/ Interesting to read about the bronze league, never been anywhere near it so it's kinda hard for me to comprehend what goes on there. Hell i have a friend who i think is awful but even he is in platinum. I have one question though, You claim 40-50% of players are in bronze but i always assumed the players were evenly divided between the divisions, so same amount of people in bronze as in every other league where did you get that information?
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On September 01 2010 14:23 nttea wrote:
All of you idiots who fail to read the OP and think he's asking for advice should go request a ban from nearest mod :/ Interesting to read about the bronze league, never been anywhere near it so it's kinda hard for me to comprehend what goes on there. Hell i have a friend who i think is awful but even he is in platinum. I have one question though, You claim 40-50% of players are in bronze but i always assumed the players were evenly divided between the divisions, so same amount of people in bronze as in every other league where did you get that information?
SC2ranks.com has statistics... for example on the SEA server:
Diamond
6.07% (2,820)
Platinum
11.97% (5,560)
Gold
18.05% (8,382)
Silver
22.45% (10,424)
Bronze
41.45% (19,248)
interestingly enough, protoss is the highest % played race, except for bronze, where its terran, and zerg is uniformly around the 20% mark
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This was a pretty well thought out OP, and people did everything from casually dismiss his opinion to question his intelligence. I think people need a little perspective. The fact that you are even visiting perhaps the best english language strategy website for a widely popular video game with a relatively high skill cap puts you in an overwhelmingly tiny percent of the player base. Not everyone takes the game as seriously as you, or possesses the same skill set as you. All he did was post his observations, its not like he presented himself as an authority on a subject over his head and talked down to everyone, which is more than you can say for 99% of the balance replated posts in this forum.
The funny thing is he is mostly right if you think about his core observation, which is that the game will tend to be played differently over time, and what worked months ago may not be what works months from now. If an average C iccup player went back in time to 1998 he would probably dominate the bnet ladder until the talented players figured out how to beat him and advanced their strategies. In a deep game people tend to get better as "staple" strategies get figured out and everyone learns to counter them, even in the bronze league. Perhaps even more in Bronze league as there are all sorts of wacky things players need to figure out don't really work before they can advance.
On September 01 2010 14:07 travis wrote:
god, I only read the first page because it was all i could stand
the guy posts some observation (that's literally all it is - his observations), and then EVERY SINGLE POST jumps on him about some irrelevant bullshit "man you're in bronze" "lol it's just bronze league". well that's great you elitist fucks you didn't have to reply to it, he didn't ask for your opinion on being in the bronze league.
Agreed 100%. Stop being dicks.
EDIT: Damn while writing this 3 people pretty much said what I said. Now I just look silly.
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I was only somewhat engaged in the post until I reached the part about the simple decision matrix.
Yes.
Not only yes, but hell yes. Around Bronze play, it's going to be like that. Simple truth is that most people who enjoy the game enough to join TL, but aren't really stellar yet are going to be between Silver and Platinum Leagues. At any level of game, even at the professional level, a Starcraft game can be viewed as a decision matrix—but it can most easily be observed in Bronze, where there isn't too much sophistry as people are still figuring out the game.
Very keen observation—and exactly why top players insist on the importance of scouting. There's no reason to be a League bigot when you can see the same principles at work at any level.
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This was actually a good read, however, it also happens in higher leagues to a lesser extent. In my platinum games, pretty much every one on lost temple is fast expand, then macro like crazy and wait. Defenders advantage is important in every matchup, so people wait until they either have a good timing to move out (probably this isn't what's going on in bronze...) or they wait until 200/200 on one or two bases and wait for their opponent to attack.
I guess in bronze, or at least in your games, people have recognized that if the big battle happens at home, that they are more likely to win, so they sit there maxed out until they get attacked.
Seems like a correct response to an important idea imo, just too hardcore. Gl on getting out of bronze! :D (this coming from an ex-copper leaguer)
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Osaka27128 Posts
I don't want to be a dick, but take a breath people. This thread is entitled observations, and is not in the strat forum. Keep that in mind before pounding out your advice.
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On September 01 2010 12:47 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:44 iEchoic wrote:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon here. I don't get how you can be a functioning, intelligent human being and be stuck in bronze with 100+ games. You can do literally anything and get out of bronze. I have a friend whose strategy is to rush two-robo mass immortal and he just got to plat.
Just 4gate, 3rax, or 1base muta and do the same thing every game and you'll get to at least gold. Just watch a replay and copy it. Not if hes simply not trying hard enough on mechanics. Some people just think 'i'll do some rush and be a baller!' or 'I'll harass like a boss!' instead of just thinking ' IM GONNA GET A TON OF CRAP AND FUCK THIS GUYS FACE' some of the people that cant get out of bronze are the ones too obsessed with tactics, build orders, harass and micro to simply macro and win. At bronze you dont even need a BO, just see what your opponents doing, expand if he doesnt have enough shit to kill you, make more unit producing structures if he does, and just constantly keep making units. that is literally enough to get you into gold at least User was warned for this post
I'd like to clarify that i wasnt trying to help the OP, nor was I directing my post at the OP, i was simply replying to
You can do literally anything and get out of bronze.
And I didnt think it was offtopic enough to warrant a PM
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It's mostly the subtle things new players miss, we don't even consider it once we get to higher leagues. I have friends that get a harass off successfully, killing a dozen workers, but they still come out behind economicly a few minutes later, because they stopped building workers themselves in favor of pumping out a force meant to end the game. Anyone in higher leagues knows that's turning your advantage into an all or nothing attack, which doesn't make much sense.
Knowing that it's safe to put a new base up while you send an attack out is another thing that isn't common sense, but by the time your force dies or you're smart enough to pull it back, you got a new fully functional base up. and if you remembered to keep making workers throughout the game, you can send half of them to the new base, double your barracks count be all set up to build a larger force quickly. Not knowing little things like that keep players in bronze.
Turtling wins when games are mostly 1 base vs 1 base, so top bronze players falling into a turtling trend doesn't surprise me. It will win them games until they find someone who actually knows how to grow their economy to a point where they can counter it. Doesn't take long to do.
edit: another big one is remembering to keep producing while you attack. A lot of new players push out with a force and it dies and then go back to their base and start from scratch. Producing constantly gives you a head start on that scenario.
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
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I'm pretty sure he's enjoying playing in the bronze league cause the players there are equal to him in skill?
I mean, anyone can get out of Bronze if they want to by cheesing everygame. But that's no fun.
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It is interesting to consider that matchmaking system may cause a stagnation of strategy at the lower leagues. As similarly-skilled players constantly play each other, many will fall into a 'local minimum' well of effective strategies that are easy to pull off and win consistently at their level, but will never succeed past that.
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BRONZE.
That is all.
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Responses are making this sound like if the bronzers have gained consciousness or something like that.
August 31, 2010: Reports of sights of intelligence in bronze league.
December 3, 2010: All the bronzers have advanced into upper leagues.
January 9, 2011: A bronzer qualifies for GSL2.
January 15, 2011: Skynet launches a nuclear attack on the east.
August 29, 1997: Judgement day.
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On September 01 2010 14:51 gaizka wrote:
Responses are making this sound like if the bronzers have gained consciousness or something like that.
August 31, 2010: Reports of sights of intelligence in bronze league.
December 3, 2010: All the bronzers have advanced into upper leagues.
January 9, 2011: A bronzer qualifies for GSL2.
January 15, 2011: Skynet launches a nuclear attack on the east.
August 29, 1997: Judgement day.
So epic rofl
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On September 01 2010 12:38 Purind wrote:
He's saying people are defending more, and thus it's harder to be aggressive. He's also saying Bronze players are somewhat more organized than before, having an actual plan and getting certain composition for certain matchups. At bronze, I would expect people doing random shit without any clue. I'd expect the turtling -> tech part, but I wouldn't things like the map trends that the OP talks about
It's not related to bronze league. For instance I used to play terran and when I decide to, I turtle HEAVILY just because it's a safe move with terrans. Just let the enemy sacrifice whatever army he has on your defenses then steamroll him.
I'm in diamond...
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On September 01 2010 14:50 Lunchbox wrote:
BRONZE.
That is all.
Wow, like 10+ people has already been warned for "lol bronze!" comments and you thought this was a good post....? Way to contribute.....
On topic, I remember when I was playing SCBW back when I was around 11-12 when the game was new. The only way I could safely beat the computer was turtling with 30-50 cannons while massing carriers. People who doesn't know any good unit compositions and have little game knowledge will always look for these I WIN units to just mass and end the game with.
A good way to break someone who turtles as terran is getting a good Tier 1-1.5 army and fast tanks with siege mode. Your tanks should be out long before ultras / carriers / BCs becomes a problem, and you can just blast all static defences without any losses. Drops is another good way of getting around people turtling. The safest way tho is just to keep scanning and build counters to what they are building, then when their death push comes you have a million vikings waiting for them (or marauders / BCs / banshees vs ultras).
Turtling will however always lead to long games unless you do some super early rushes or proxys, there isn't really any way around that unless you are much better than your opponent.
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Playing defensively is easier than playing offensively, especially when trying to figure out the game. Breaking that mindset requires understanding of timing, unit knowledge, teching opportunities, good army mixes etc. Which is a bit tough for a non-RTS player.
If you are trying to play with no outside help, defense is easier, attacking is more dangerous. Especially if you feel like you are playing "blind."
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It would be cool if the ecosystem of buildorders and strategies in bronze league was like what TLO mentioned in the liquid weekly, where hours after trying out and winning with a strategy you can have it done against you. the reason why that doesn't happen in the diamond foreign leagues is a difference in mentality and an ego thing - i know my build works and I will MAKE it work against your unorthodox one. Whereas in bronze they could see a new strat like zealot phoenix or something (not recommended lol) and be like COOL I WANT TO TRY.
thus the trends you speak of, while they do exist in plat and diamond mainly stem from replays and vods of tournaments, whereas in bronze they could actually stem from ladder games - which makes it very interesting. The best case scenario would be that a player legitly in bronze but improving at a fast rate takes a totally unorthodox strategy that he learned there, backs it up with better and better mechanics as he improves and storms the diamond league with it. That would be awesome.
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This thread has mighty amounts of red text. I am amused.
On topic: Turtling and massing units is easier than attacking/microing units, simply because it has fewer demands on APM. That's the primary problem with low level players, it's not that they're stupid; they're not. Bronzies have slower hands than Diamonds, and as a result can only do 1 thing at a time. Hence--
1) Defend by spamming defensive buildings
2) 30 minutes of ...something?
3) 200/200 BC army gogogo
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Its good how people are getting better. i am wondering which players will rise to the top!
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Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
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On September 01 2010 15:18 ZerOsAndOnEs wrote:
Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
Because the OP was not asking for, nor was the thread about, getting shitty advice from bad diamond players who think they're hot shit. Instead, as Manifesto pointed out, was just a thread made to discuss an observation he had.
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On September 01 2010 15:18 ZerOsAndOnEs wrote:
Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
I believe it's because the OP never asked for help, he simply made a post about his observations in the bronze league.
Also lots of the post were just "How can you still be in the bronze league after 100 games" not exactly helpful.
Edit: Beaten
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This thread is a clear example of what's wrong with TL
I love TL, A LOT
but the problem is it's not a friendly place for low level players like myself (Gold) and the OP
We are forced to lurk. Any sort of input or opinions are irrelevant because of our skill level. It's feels like we don't deserve to post because we're not good enough.
SO WHAT if the OP is in Bronze...He's merely stating his observations. Why does he have to be crucified for this? What if other Bronze players are interested in his observations?
I know that TL wasn't this bad before SC2 came out but I guess with the new game came new members and unfortunately with horrible manners.
Anyway on topic
The way the game is evolving is quite interesting. Day9 said something about in the early day of SC and SCBW ppl tend look for the easy ways to win rather than finding safe and stable ways to win (i.e. Macro)
I think in all divisions this is happening just at different rates. People who have followed SCBW and reads up on stuff on TL and other sites, knows how SC works: Macro Macro MACRO. However, for those who weren't they'll learning a new game.
For example, I have a co-worker who played SC (not BW) and was fairly successful in his game play (according to him). He still has the mentality of rushing and quick wins. He was even trying to teach me the extractor trick like it was some new phenomenon. Long story short, he's finally starting to understand the importance of Macro (i think). His game is slowly mimicking those in diamond league (he's in Plat).
The new players will slowly learn the "normal" way to play eventually when they get more practice.
But for now, expect to see very different styles of play
The million dollar question is still this:
Will SC2 reach what SCBW has achieved or maybe even surpass it?
Only time will tell
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On September 01 2010 13:52 cive wrote:
This is where I can pull out my calculator and tell someone exactly how many reapers you are going to have after the patch 1.1 if you want to maintain the timing, and without feeling like a total geek(not denying, just less conscious LOL.)
could you actually show me where to find that calculation?
as for OP, just reaper them! goes through def wall so easily
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Be careful posting if you are bronze cos people here consider a platinum player an upper noob level.
I understand what you are saying, it is normal to see certain things after playing regular some time, or to notice changes and overall players skill or habits.
My overall advice - develop aggressive style more than anything. I would rather kill myself than build a static defense like photon canon.
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On September 01 2010 15:18 ZerOsAndOnEs wrote:
Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
Because the OP was just giving some detailed observations of the evolution of gameplay in the bronze league in an intelligent manner, and many of the immediate responses was one of three things:
1. Short 1-2 liners, being a jerk to him about being in the bronze league.
2. Trying to give him advice in a condescending tone about how to get out of his bronze league.
3. Obviously did not read the OP in its entirety and only read that he was in bronze league.
And often a combination of the three. Being in diamond is not a requisite to posting on TL, and dismissing someone's well written post (not asking for advice) because he is in bronze is really annoying to read.
EDIT: Beaten, twice =(
And @swymaboi, I agree completely. I'm glad to see the mods take some action to reduce toxic posts.
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Thanks for explaining, proper etiquette. It threw me off a bit seeing good replies. I know one thing not to do and am glad to be a part of a community that takes charge.
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Yeah its calling learning.
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OP I know exactly what you mean on your post. I am a mid - high level diamond player and I played on my friend's bronze account. I played one game where they go heavy macro and make the proper units to depend. I was shocked they did mass banshee rushes, even in diamond i don't often see this. It is repelled with ease but i was shocked they gave a fight. After one game of winning PvT, i got him promoted to silver.. don't know what i did but i got him in silver with one win hahha! Sure bronze was easy on release but people are improving a lot and a lot more. I was copper when the game released and after became gold, platinum when resets have happened. May you show us reps?
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On September 01 2010 15:31 backtoback wrote:
OP I know exactly what you mean on your post. I am a mid - high level diamond player and I played on my friend's bronze account. I played one game where they go heavy macro and make the proper units to depend. I was shocked they did mass banshee rushes, even in diamond i don't often see this. It is repelled with ease but i was shocked they gave a fight. After one game of winning PvT, i got him promoted to silver.. don't know what i did but i got him in silver with one win hahha! Sure bronze was easy on release but people are improving a lot and a lot more. I was copper when the game released and after became gold, platinum when resets have happened. May you show us reps?
I have a couple friends in bronze: although the strats aren't viable on a competetive level, they are strangely viable on the casual level: mass banshees does well against stalkers en masse.
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honestly I think if this guy wanted, by the time this thread gets closed, his hidden elo would probably be at silver level.
he sounds like a guy thats willing to improve and thats all thats needed.
sorry topic starter if any of us sound rude. I mean its like me jumping into the honda forum and saying why can't I top 200 with my 2004 civic anymore?? People (especially people that are mean) will take the change and jump on you.
even though your not, i suggest you NOT to ask for help and just discover the game for yourself.
The graph of your rts ability and time is not linear its more like a ...
y=tan(x)
where Y is your rts ability and X is time.
![[image loading]](http://www.clarku.edu/~djoyce/trig/tan.gif)
o<x<π/2
teh start mgiht be a little slow but as you get better your ability willl shoot up until its pretty high up (diamond ish) to the point where it becomes increasingly hard to get better (thus the asymptote).
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On September 01 2010 15:36 Froadac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:31 backtoback wrote:
OP I know exactly what you mean on your post. I am a mid - high level diamond player and I played on my friend's bronze account. I played one game where they go heavy macro and make the proper units to depend. I was shocked they did mass banshee rushes, even in diamond i don't often see this. It is repelled with ease but i was shocked they gave a fight. After one game of winning PvT, i got him promoted to silver.. don't know what i did but i got him in silver with one win hahha! Sure bronze was easy on release but people are improving a lot and a lot more. I was copper when the game released and after became gold, platinum when resets have happened. May you show us reps? I have a couple friends in bronze: although the strats aren't viable on a competetive level, they are strangely viable on the casual level: mass banshees does well against stalkers en masse.
wait what? I actually massed stalkers with blink against his mass banshees o.o. It was countered with ease with an observer but I was diamond and he was bronze. My bronze friend ragequits when he sees banshees and voidrays killing their probeline/base. They are just too slow and unresponsive to react on threat situations.
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On September 01 2010 15:38 Vz0 wrote:
y=tan(x)
where Y is your rts ability and X is time.
[graph...]
o<x<π/2
teh start mgiht be a little slow but as you get better your ability willl shoot up until its pretty high up (diamond ish) to the point where it becomes increasingly hard to get better (thus the asymptote).
Your asymptote is going the wrong way. Your graph shows that with a little more time your skill increases exponentially.
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lol I feel like this thread was designed to see just how many people could get banned/warned. I guess its interesting to know that there are actually trends in Bronze but I just don't get the point of this thread, it just feels like flame bait.
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On September 01 2010 15:38 Vz0 wrote:y=tan(x) where Y is your rts ability and X is time. + Show Spoiler +o<x<π/2
So all I have to do to get infinitely good is to play for pi/2 time?
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On September 01 2010 14:51 gaizka wrote:
Responses are making this sound like if the bronzers have gained consciousness or something like that.
August 31, 2010: Reports of sights of intelligence in bronze league.
December 3, 2010: All the bronzers have advanced into upper leagues.
January 9, 2011: A bronzer qualifies for GSL2.
January 15, 2011: Skynet launches a nuclear attack on the east.
August 29, 1997: Judgement day.
Off-topic
+ Show Spoiler +Holy mother of, that was so damn funny. I get the same feeling reading this.
On-topic
I made a smurf account with my guest key, Im a douche I know. So I have experienced bronze league, and it is something that is fascinating to scout for. Actually the upper bronze players can sometimes even set you off-guard with things you'd never expect.
The wall-in make a bunch of units is very boring though. Seeing bunkers and cannons you are now free to expand overall, but still scout. So basically, you should not hate that they all wall-in like that, just take the oppurtunity, it is a new experience. If they cannon and turret up to shut all your harrass up, you can be aggressive in another way, the aggressive art of expanding. Many people dont see the aggressive part in expanding, but it is one of my favourite moves to be aggressive with, and as zerg one of the few ways (what is a post without zerg qq). You may hate that games are taking longer, not sure how long is for you, but 15minutes is not that long, and you should aim to get a big enough army by this point. Atleast at this timemark your economy should kick in. Just enjoy the new style of bronze, go battlecruisers with your new aggressive style in expanding, go 3 ghosts 3 nukes on production facilities, Im sure you can find a small way in, atleast in most games.
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one in three players in sc2 ladder are in bronze
four in five TL.net posters are idiots who can't comprehend a thread on observations, assuming it was a quest for advice.
And yes, even bronze players do get better at playing. Some will superexceed their ladder standings, and some will stay where they are, because they are matched properly.
ANd I do believe Blizzard designed all these seemingly inane leagues and visible/hidden point scoring system to let even average players notice improvement and feel ontop of their ladder and game. This is a pretty good example that its doing its job (even if some dont notice it or are unhappy how it works).
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On September 01 2010 15:38 Vz0 wrote:honestly I think if this guy wanted, by the time this thread gets closed, his hidden elo would probably be at silver level. he sounds like a guy thats willing to improve and thats all thats needed. sorry topic starter if any of us sound rude. I mean its like me jumping into the honda forum and saying why can't I top 200 with my 2004 civic anymore?? People (especially people that are mean) will take the change and jump on you. even though your not, i suggest you NOT to ask for help and just discover the game for yourself. The graph of your rts ability and time is not linear its more like a ... y=tan(x) where Y is your rts ability and X is time. o<x<π/2 teh start mgiht be a little slow but as you get better your ability willl shoot up until its pretty high up (diamond ish) to the point where it becomes increasingly hard to get better (thus the asymptote).
...Your ability to analyze graphs is disgusting. The asymptote does not mean that it's hard to get better at all, it actually means that, by some arbitrary time (which I guess would be whatever the time you stop playing is, because it's the right bound of the graph), your skill will converge to infinity, and in the time approaching that, you skill will skyrocket at unimaginable speeds. If you were to change the graph's bounds to -π/2<x<π/2, rotate it 90 degrees clockwise, and then reflect it over the x-axis (Postin' from a phone, so I can't do this in Paint or anything), it would actually represent what you said.
This brings me to my next point: I think that what you said is also false. Between leaving Bronze and getting into Diamond, I don't believe there's any increase in your rate of improvement, it seems like it stays approximately constant.
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There is no shame in practicing against the computer. Test build orders and strategies against a very easy computer. Do the single player challenge missions, they'll help immensely. I am a protoss player myself, so I downloaded a bunch of HuK replays and examined them so I can copy some of his builds and strategies.
If you do practice against a harder difficulty computer, I suggest you be careful. Because bad habits can form; like turtling, not scouting because the computer's strategy is predictable, 1 basing, and other things. That's not to say that those things are bad, in certain situations they are appropriate, but for your general SC2 career they can be bad habits to get into.
Remember to always be producing workers, don't stare at battles too long and keep macroing, and be very cautious of your supply level, because getting supply blocked can cost you games.
User was warned for this post
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Why are these people stuck in Bronze after 100 games? It's not because they're bad and incapable of learning, it's because they're highly reluctant to do anything but defend. This isn't really a fancy metagame trend, unless you count the fact that a few weeks ago most of bronze was filled with people who simply hadn't played multiplayer at all on account of the game being new.
I don't think turtling counts as "competent macro", unless "competent" means "makes more than 10 SCVs".
As to map trends, some maps (Scrap Station, Desert Oasis) are designed to make players go air, because moving out ground forces leaves your base vulnerable.
The issue here is that you should not be losing. You're not as aggressive as you think you are, or you wouldn't be in Bronze. None of your games need to take more than 10 minutes, there is no way a bronze player who's teching and turtling on one base, not scouting or harassing, will counter a stim timing push or a banshee rush.
How much "turtling" can you really do in the first ten minutes? You can protect against cheese, sure, but if all you're looking for out of this game is proxy rushing then you either have to become really really good at your timing and micro or face the fact that people will either learn to defend against this or quit playing.
Rather than developing good "skills", I have noticed that people are starting to customize their play to the map they are on. There is very little scouting, just defensive builds that have a good chance of success on a particular map.
This is just a weird thing to say. If their goal is to stay alive, having a good defensive build for the map they're on is most certainly a good skill. But this is why you shouldn't be in Bronze - you're supposedly aggressive and your enemies are predictable. If most every zerg on Scrap Station is spamming spine crawlers against terran, then wall off with a rax and a factory and spam banshees for attacking and rines for counterattack defense and win.
EDIT: what's with all the warnings? I mean, the OP isn't really providing some amazing insight into Bronze. People are in Bronze because they're doing it wrong or they're brand new. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the OP stops doing it wrong, because Bronze is certainly not going to change, except that most players actually do get out of there, if they keep playing said league at all.
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On September 01 2010 16:37 kojinshugi wrote:
EDIT: what's with all the warnings? I mean, the OP isn't really providing some amazing insight into Bronze. People are in Bronze because they're doing it wrong or they're brand new. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the OP stops doing it wrong, because Bronze is certainly not going to change, except that most players actually do get out of there, if they keep playing said league at all.
Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety.
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On September 01 2010 16:50 Rokk wrote:Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety.
Actually he's not "just giving observations". He's also complaining about the game not being fun because people are doing this. See:
This creates a problem for me as a player who likes to rush, sieze an advantage and then keep pushing. It seems that the game is now more about macro and patience, no one is willing to take any risks, just mass a big blob and wait.
I really hate the fact that games are taking longer.
Maybe it's you who didn't read the entire post, as that part is close to the end?
Anyway, what is the observation? People who have played 150 games are learning basic defensive strategies? That's kind of obvious. The real question is "why are they still in Bronze?".
EDIT: and that question is not elitism. It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask - why are these players, who are clearly not newbies, not succeeding?
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On September 01 2010 16:50 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:37 kojinshugi wrote:
EDIT: what's with all the warnings? I mean, the OP isn't really providing some amazing insight into Bronze. People are in Bronze because they're doing it wrong or they're brand new. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the OP stops doing it wrong, because Bronze is certainly not going to change, except that most players actually do get out of there, if they keep playing said league at all. Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety.
Just because he hasn't asked for advice does't mean you can't give it. TLer's see someone in bronze and just want to help. The whole site is pretty much about getting better at SC.
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Actually, the OP has an interesting point - since if you have ever seen the statistics platinum and diamond divisons only fill if I remember correctly 10-15% of the total player count- so bronze league is huuuuge and as a diamond player you wont notice much of it, wont you?
Thanks for the insight!
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On September 01 2010 16:58 GoDannY wrote:
Actually, the OP has an interesting point - since if you have ever seen the statistics platinum and diamond divisons only fill if I remember correctly 10-15% of the total player count- so bronze league is huuuuge and as a diamond player you wont notice much of it, wont you?
Thanks for the insight!
There are leagues between bronze and platinum, you know.
There are more silver and gold players combined than there are bronze.
There's one platinum player for every 3 bronze, it's not some massive majority.
EDIT: checked the numbers, and the distribution is as follows:
Bronze - 38%
Silver - 21%
Gold - 20%
Plat - 15%
Diamond - 6%
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LOL
There are SO many warnings in this thread, I don't think I've ever see that many before.
On topic, your post displayed some serious insight and observation on your part, and it's actually something I've noticed as well whenever I play my bronze friends, but never quite registered before as an underlying theme (thx). I feel like it's just a lack of confidence in their own decision making, and it's so easy to just make photon cannons and "forget" about them, instead of having to control your defenses that contributes to this.
If this is how they're playing you should take advantage of the themes and get that macro up 
Turn a disfavorable situation into a chance to improve so that when you move up, you'll have shored up your weaknesses a bit.
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Nice post good to see that all the leagues players share some information now, i hardly see information about silver, gold, or bronze.. i started to believe everyone is diamond lol.
Which is probably not the true^^
Cause every other post iread in the last days started with
Hello im a semi good mid level diamond player ^^
just kidding
thx for the insight on whats going on where the "newer or people with bad luck in placemtmatches" player battle it out.
I wish you good luck with your journey to silver
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I've noticed some different patterns in lower leagues as well. It seems that many new players tend to favor builds that are the "safest." I've seen a lot more experimentation in higher level leagues.
Oh, and.. Power trippin. Really. A lot of times It seems that admins and moderators forget why they exist. I don't like what you've said, so I'm going to warn you. Elitist attitudes are detrimental to any community, but haphazardly handing out warnings to people who may just want to help a dude out?
I get your point. People think he's bad because he's been in Bronze for a long time, and you don't like the fact that people are making these assumptions. But you are warning people who are sincerely trying to help him out.
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OK nice post, good thing you talk about something like that, cause isnt tl a website for ALL SC2 players
Does "all players" include "people who don't want to improve"?
I think there's a massive difference between "lol bronze stfu" and the idea that one should work on improving and getting out of bronze instead of complaining about the poor and unimaginative play found therein.
Just because he didn't name the thread "Observations and complaints" doesn't mean those complaints aren't there. And when people post complaints, it's a pretty damn natural reaction to give advice on how to avoid those problems.
Unless this is the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants and we're just supposed to listen and understand, in which case, my mistake.
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Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speech anyone?
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On September 01 2010 16:55 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:50 Rokk wrote:Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety. Actually he's not "just giving observations". He's also complaining about the game not being fun because people are doing this. See: Show nested quote +This creates a problem for me as a player who likes to rush, sieze an advantage and then keep pushing. It seems that the game is now more about macro and patience, no one is willing to take any risks, just mass a big blob and wait.
I really hate the fact that games are taking longer. Maybe it's you who didn't read the entire post, as that part is close to the end? Anyway, what is the observation? People who have played 150 games are learning basic defensive strategies? That's kind of obvious. The real question is "why are they still in Bronze?". EDIT: and that question is not elitism. It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask - why are these players, who are clearly not newbies, not succeeding?
Where in those quotes does it suggest that he was asking for advice? Hes giving his opinion as to why the style of gameplay in bronze isnt enjoyable. He never said he wants help. In fact, given that he is top of bronze, im pretty sure he doesnt really "need" help at that point against the other bronze players.
On September 01 2010 16:56 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:50 Rokk wrote:On September 01 2010 16:37 kojinshugi wrote:
EDIT: what's with all the warnings? I mean, the OP isn't really providing some amazing insight into Bronze. People are in Bronze because they're doing it wrong or they're brand new. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the OP stops doing it wrong, because Bronze is certainly not going to change, except that most players actually do get out of there, if they keep playing said league at all. Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety. Just because he hasn't asked for advice does't mean you can't give it. TLer's see someone in bronze and just want to help. The whole site is pretty much about getting better at SC.
You are correct. There is one problem. The "advice" that many people are giving here includes examples like:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon here. I don't get how you can be a functioning, intelligent human being and be stuck in bronze with 100+ games. You can do literally anything and get out of bronze. I have a friend whose strategy is to rush two-robo mass immortal and he just got to plat.
so you can't rush anymore and thats why u whine?
don't care about the metagame - play a safe build and adapt...
People just love to stroke their own e-peens so much that when these elitist asswipes saw the word "Bronze" in the title, they decided to jump in here to give their pretentious, backhanded "advice".
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone?
From TL.net 10 commandments:
We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness."
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone?
+1 This >.>
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2010 17:25 Supamang wrote:
Where in those quotes does it suggest that he was asking for advice?
You don't need to say "help me obi wan!" to elicit responses that give advice. "I am in the Bronze league and I'm finding the games boring and not fun" is a complaint, and a public complaint is an implicit request for advice. Unless, as I said, this is some sort of knitting club where we cry on each others' shoulders.
Hes giving his opinion as to why the style of gameplay in bronze isnt enjoyable. He never said he wants help. In fact, given that he is top of bronze, im pretty sure he doesnt really "need" help at that point against the other bronze players.
He's not giving his opinion as to why. He's describing what is happening, not why it's happening.
And I don't think you understand how the leagues work. If he doesn't need help against Bronze players, he'd be in Silver.
People just love to stroke their own e-peens so much that when these elitist asswipes saw the word "Bronze" in the title, they decided to jump in here to give their pretentious, backhanded "advice".
That's just horseshit. Yeah, some of them were rude. But the warnings were given out to anyone who said "here's some ways to beat those turtles that you so dislike" and "you shouldn't be in Bronze in the first place".
Well, you shouldn't! That's the entire point of games, to improve. Starting out in Bronze is fine, but staying there is most emphatically not.
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speech anyone?
I'm guessing it's for derailing a thread. The OP was giving us interesting observations what people were up to in the Bronze league, and the 'warned' responses were telling him irrelevant stuff about how to get better, which he didn't ask for.
Also remember this is Teamliquid. You won't get far with the mods demanding your freedom of speech like that
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On September 01 2010 17:27 Alphonsse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone? From TL.net 10 commandments: Show nested quote +We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness."
Okay, now ignore the "Freedom of speech anyone?" part and reply to the actual point he made.
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I think what you're experiencing is just playing against better players OP.
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On September 01 2010 17:36 Aim Here wrote:The OP was giving us interesting observations what people were up to in the Bronze league, and the 'warned' responses were telling him irrelevant stuff about how to get better, which he didn't ask for.
"People in Bronze league play rigidly and defensively".
Someone get this man a Pulitzer, stat!
User was temp banned for this post.
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Sometimes people can really behave idioticly (is there such word?). Just because you are much better player than somebody else, it doesn't mean you MUST give an advice.
I think the OP clearly isn't about looking about advices, but rather an insight about current trends in Bronze. If player's frustration can be noticed, it is not the main point of the OP. Why don't you just develop some social skills - if you don't have something meaningful to say it, than just don't.
And yeah, yeah - I am as well in Bronze, 9th place in my league. I have NO RTS background. I started with Zerg, which probably is the most difficult race to start with, but I so much enjoy playhing the swarm I would not leave it for anything. You may flame now - no problemo.
However do not make the mistake to think, that because somebody is in Bronze, he/she is playing other bronzers only. I personally check every player I was put against and I noticed I played only one bronzer (he was first in his league) and other than him gold and silver players only. I am proud to say I have well over 50% win ratio against these people, because it means I learnt something, I have developed some skills and acumulated some knowledge about the game - and that is all that matters. We are all here to share knowledge and experince in order for all of us to get better and feel part of the community, don't we? I am pretty confident, that if TLO/IdrA/make-your-pick comes here and start telling to stfu/l2p to all low-mid even hi diamond players how are you gonna feel about it?
However, the point is (as somebody said well before me) knowing what to do and what to look for, doesn't mean one has the pure skills to do so eg. I know I have to macro, while macroing, but can I multitask it?
Please, do contribute, don't just flame people for lack of skills ... //
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I have also encountered this against a DIAMOND player. He was toss and walled in himself with cannons and forge. Then he just massed DTs while I was thinking he was making Void rays all the time.
FML!
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone?
No.
The Op wrote a though provoking piece about the lack of creative play in his Division
pointing out that many people keep repeating the same strats based on map selection
and that hes starting to notice it quite a lot.
Then, a whole lot of ignorant A-hats proceeded to post...."still in bronze what a noob" reply's
followed by their retarded advice for "escaping bronze"!
Rather than actually bothering to read and understand the post and formulate an intelligent response.
Bravo to the mods..you guys do a great job here.
and to the OP......I would argue that the lower legues have generally always suffered from a lack of creative play, as its hard enough to just wrap your head around the mechanics of controlling the game efficiently at that level let alone to even begin to experiment with build orders and unit compositions etc to any great extent
that fact that your noticing stagnating play patterns probably just means mean that your getting better at the game.
in fact, from what i can see the blind repetition of successful strategies on certain maps is a trend that extends all the way through into diamond ....proving, in my opinion, you don't really have to be intelligent to be really successful in the higher leagues. ( a hypothesis born out by some of the genius posters in this thread)
also the defenders advantage is something that's hardwired into the game and a fact that is just better accepted and accommodated for....its blizzards intention that it exists....its allows a skill differential between players where skilled players can be aggressive and still macro well, conversely defensive players get to have there units right next to there structures for easier macro/micro but they aren't able to dictate the flow of the game (*unless they're Terran)
*biased Zerg fanboi
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I noticed this myself, actually.
I'm somewhere in the lower half of diamond as far as my skill level goes, but I lost a ton of games this morning to demote myself to bronze so I could get a bunch of easy wins and have fun working my way back up. In most matchups (I play random) I've had to resort to a midgame push instead of rushing really hard since people are just turtling behind cannons and teching to void rays or w/e.
If you scout them playing defensively, just fast expand and prepare for whatever their midgame plan is (void rays, mutas, banshees, etc). If they're going for something lategame like battlecruisers, you can fast expand and still get there before they do because of your greater economy.
Work on your scouting. Most of my losses in plat and diamond came from not scouting tech switches properly.
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lol so many warnings in this thread its funny
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Osaka27128 Posts
If you have a problem or question about the way I mod, PM me or make a thread in website feedback. Do not derail the thread.
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Nice OP. But you have to take into the account that as your game knowledge changes so does your view on your opponent's play.
The turtle bit is nothing new though, new players love this kind of 1-base-fortress style. I have friends on LANs that even after all these years (in bw) sunken up one base even with zerg and have no plans for expanding ever o_O. What might have changed right now in SC2 is that players are starting to decide on race and a build they like to mimic.
Regarding long games;You might want to convert from rushing to a more harassment-oriented style. This will keep the game interesting since you will have something to do and will end many games sooner even if they are turtling. If you annoy them enough they may quit or attack you for an easy game. As a terran you have a dozen or so ways to harass.
You could also switch to a race that needs more players and practice bling-busts, should be a fun way to get some shorter games
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I assume the ranking system is designed to keep the bottom 20% of players in bronze leagues, so I find the idea (commonly touted on this forum) that the lower leagues should be empty, frankly, to be laughable. Logically, as players get better, the standard at the bottom will improve the most relative to where it is now, so it's hardly surprising that bronze players are better now than they were.
I was basically a newcomer to Starcraft with Wings of Liberty, so I spent my early learning period in bronze and gold, and I can say that the players I played against are better than people here say they are. If I had never been in the lower leagues, and just took what was written here for granted, I would probably think anybody who wasn't in Diamond was probably a monkey who'd been frontally lobotomised. The trash talk is that bad.
1) The 80% of people who play this game outside of Diamond league are not as bad as you say they are.
2) The idea that everyone can improve and get into Diamond doesn't really make sense on a large scale since Diamond can only hold 20% of the population.
3) Most players are improving anyway, and since they can't all get into Diamond this means that the leagues they are in will get more competitive as time goes on.
4) The standard of the lower leagues is bound to increase at a faster rate than Diamond the lower you go.
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just have fun!!
i have to writte it as i haven't read it yet... games are mainly for fun
that's why the vast majority is bronze league and don't put as much energy as people from this forum (which is what? 0.000001% of total players base? and mostly are no more in bronze ^^)
i've many fellows who, as the OP, just play a few hours a week, there are in bronze :
some see replays and just try to re-iterate what they saw.
you can laught at them and treat them "monkey" if your ego is not that cool
at least they try (and as say day9 "improvment come from repetition" :p ) sure they would enjoy to think out of the box, but they don't play enought to differenciate bad execution/bad play from good execution/original new play. i see very bad and good moves as well (while they don't even aware of)
do they want to improve?
of course yes
that why we meet and play custom games and discut about it
do they want to put as much energy as you did?
no.
IRL constraint.
but the good news is that even a bad player can have fun, even in bronze
trend in bronze is biased by mix of casual true bronze level and rising players
some play defense because their first objective is to make sure to survive cheese and early push, other try offensive (and then discover how difficult it is to micro and macro at the same time : defense is easier)
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On September 01 2010 12:12 sabre_X wrote:
There isnt much cheese at top of bronze. I play custom games and see it all the time from platinum and diamond players. All the time.
I never would've thought to see someone wish for more cheese. Hopefully you find a way around this observation you've made and find out how to make the game fun for you again. I know you aren't asking for advice, but I think if the opponent turtles that's a great opportunity for you to practice expanding and macroing up a counter force. GL
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I'm another bronzer who will testify to what OP is saying. If you look at my record it says im 9 games below .500 but if exclude the first so many where I was just starting I am well over .500. What I tend to see as an effective Bronze strategy is an expand around 35 and then two base the game for the most part. Usually I should have the MM ball to handle early agression but still eventually out macro the turtlers. Most cant handle the constant pressure of 4-5 production buildings rallied to the front. Though sometimes I still screw up, like tonight I just barely squeaked out a win against one base mass battlecruisers. It required a second expansion but he showed up with the first two when I admittedly had a mountain of tanks. Woops!
What I guess I am trying to say is that simply I enjoy Bronze level. I am not superman by any stretch so why should I feel the need to work to up my rank. I take a more pleasure view out of SC. I won't win tourneys, I wont ever see diamond. I just like like playing games with others my level. What set this topic off topic is that too many people simply assumed that the OP or any bronze level player has an inherit drive to climb the ladder. It's an attitude that is seriously stressing people out over the long run.
Another hobby of mine is national level fencing tournaments here in Canada. Once at nationals a national team member tried to tell me I was a stupid moron for going 1-5 out of pools. He was a douchebag because he assumed that winning was the primary goal. Do I want to win, yes. Is my life a constant focus on the euphoric rush of victory, no. The same can be said of SC. Remember that a place like TL is an extreme niche. Sure it may seem like a pretty big community but people this interested in strategy comprise a tiny fraction of SC players. The fact that OP knows a place like TL exists is a surefire sign that he understands his weaknesses and wants to improve in some fashion. Just not by begging the national team members for advice.
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Loved the post, I like hearing about these kinds of things.
Apparently a ton of people in this thread don't get that there are people who casually play this game. There will always be a bronze league. Also, getting better in SC isn't as intuitive as most other games no matter what you might think. Most of my RL friends would happily play SC2 in the broze league for the rest of their time playing SC2.
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Hi,
I don't know many bronze players (only 1 to be exact), but some silver and gold players (I'm mid-diamond -- and this is not to boast or to state that i am telling the truth or sth...just for a reference).
I played quite a lot with my lower league friends and I noticed two things:
1.) They of course lack mechanics (who does not) and just cant produce probes constantly etc. This will lead to economic disadvantages and smaller army sizes.
2.) They almost don't scout. This fits quite well with OP's observation. Because if you don't scout you cannot adjust your play. So, you need a "good" build order and repeat it every time, no matter what your opponent is doing. There's a lot of VODs and replays out right now, so they often try to copy the higher league builds. (which is okay, but probably not the best way to improve).
A friend of mine told me: wow, why are the battles against u over in no time. Against my silver opponents it takes much longer, i cant react so fast. The main reason for this (apart from battle micro) is that due to my scouting I prepare a perfect counter army to his one. Due to the "hard counters" in SC2 the battles are over almost instantly.
Cheesing (apart from 6 pool) is rare, mainly because lower league players rather lack the multitasking capabilities.
The fact that you encounter many turtling players in bronze league is understandable. By turtling your games last longer and you probably win some more. This creates a better feeling (who likes to lose all the time...). Even though it might not be the best way to improve at the highest rate.
So, even though OP didn't ask, here are some suggestions:
1) Try to constantly build probes (check your games afterwards with 8x replay speed)
2) Learn counters: Ask yourself what is the best unit combination against this or that. This can even be done at work during a short break.
3) Use more scans to check the opponent's unit composition and create the counter units from 2)
4) Against turtling players try harrassment with banshees or drops (MM, Thors) like someone in the thread already proposed. Because: it's fun and helps to improve your multitasking. If you have no chance to harrass, expand faster than your opponent.
GL
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funny read.
i played almost zero melee in BW and I got to diamond playing toss on asia servers. its quite an straightforward learning curve imo.
i think people just arent trying new things out in bronze so they never figure out exactly what to do.
question: What is the point of this thread? is it attempting to discuss bronze level play? improvement?
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for all you know, there are many bronze players who "tanked" their placement matches so that they can pwn noobs to bolster some of their ego... *cough cough* not that I do that....
FINE i admit i tanked my placements, went into bronze for a week, was matched with plats in abt my 10th game, 'teams even' (lol), and have moved back to plat as i shld hv been. But some roflstompers (like me previously) might not want to move out from bronze simply cos they are having such a fun time testing ridiculous BOs against noobs. Thats maybe why you are having a hard time in bronze. Just a possibility...
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Lower level play is funny like that, you can 10rax reaper a terran, only to find that he has infact gone 9rax and 11 rax, completely weird, but it counters your shit anyway
But aslong as you have a more solid macro game, you should always be able to win.
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It's simply amazing how people managed to complain about elitists in a topic about bronze league. Oh, man, those elitist silver people!
People just want to help, because there's obviously something very very wrong with his play, how is that not completely understandable?
Trends in bronze? How suprising it is that they turtle up and don't really try to improve? You could've asked me 10 years ago and I could've also said that the lowest skilled people will turtle up, it has always been like that for all RTS games.
People also post "you should go see a doctor", when there is the possibility of a health problem, and without the poster explicitly asking for advice. Do you go "those horrible elitist healthy people" at them?
People should try using some common sense instead of absurd overreaction like "those horrible elitists" or "stroking e-peen".
Since when is being better than bronze even remotely an e-peen booster anyway?
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I am also in top Bronze, I have around 200 games. I am 29 years old. I have medium experience in all sorts of computer games. I reflect some insights of the OP by myself. Its either very cheesy (with backup-strategies too!) or very turtling.
Here is a replay of me. When its so easy to get into diamond just with one BO. then plays watch it and tell me where my sticking point of play is. You can also watch my opponent and spot some sticking points of him too. I think it doesnt matter who is winning the game, because issues might be spotable anyway.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/69485-1v1-terran-protoss-kulasklamm
Looking forward for your insights, greetings from the bronze-ladder.
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Going a bit off topic first:I have never seen so many warnings in a thread before =)
Is it a new record?
To the OP: I don't quite understand your post honestly. Are you trying to get advice on how to win vs turtle players or are you just giving us information about bronze league?
Regardless I don't think it is a surprise that there will be trends in bronze league as in all leagues. At some point I expect the game to be stable and balance where there will be clear strategies/tactics that works in different leagues.
So it's a good development to see some stability in bronze league too where you can identify certain playstyles.
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Nice attention to detail.
Good to see that general players are learning the game.
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
User was warned for this post
Actually, I kinda agree with this post. I been checking the forums to try to see if anyone has been talking more about the point system and the league system, but couldn't find much.
I was kind of surprised when you check sc2ranks.com that some of the top players in points are Bronze players (Gonzo of EU has 2K points?). Well not so much in 1v1 as most of them are Diamond when you look at the top oft the rankings, but especially in say Random 2v2, a lot of the point leaders are in Bronze or Silver divisions.
It seems that if you play in a certain type of way, even if you have high points, you end up getting matched with similar people. (Low apm or something perhaps?) Perhaps that's why people end up getting stuck at the top of a certain division? I know I have been.... LoL.
Makes me want to change my playstyle and perhaps even take some losses versus doing stuff for the sake of winning (maybe like turtling and defending as the OP said)
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Kinda surprised (like "wtf") to see whom got warned for which posts in this thread. Perfectly decent and neutral replies, some of them. Ah well, bygones.
Anyways, to answer one of them - Bronze doesn't mean anything. "Just watch a few replays and he's out of Bronze"? Dude, watching replays doesn't do anything about actual in-game skill. It's simply a tool for analyzing the game. But even that requires some skills, e.g. wargame analysis requires an understanding of causality, military strategy and whatnot (which in turn requires that you've studied it). Second, you might be the greatest analyst and still be in Bronze, simply because of your Macro etc, which has nothing whatsoever to do with your understanding of the game. Getting out of Bronze primarily has to do with understanding game mechanics and applying what you know.
If you don't apply, it doesn't matter how much you know. How exactly do you get better at using Hotkeys or Macroing by watching replays? You don't, you may simply learn that it is important. You still need actual practice.
Anyways, to the OP - I agree that some trends are out there, but many of them are coincidential or simply a product of a very new game and/or low League. There's a lot of strange things happening in Bronze - I'm there myself - but just play more and better and you'll be out in no-time. Probably similar or equivalent trends for Silver and Gold too, but then it starts to even out at top Leagues.
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I've heard this same metagame logic ("If I am TvP on map X, then I open with Y, because I know they are likely to play Z") from a lot of players, at many skill levels (usually lower tier, but not always!), as if this type of logic were the main component of strategy. I really think it holds people back...
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I agree palanq, it's the main reason why there aren't more people at the top. Likewise, it's also the main reason why being in Diamond doesn't even matter that much, either, because most Platinum and Diamond - according to what I hear and see from the best Diamonds - are mostly about macro, micro and economy.
Psychology doesn't even begin to factor in until high/top Diamond, unless you're that kind of player moving through the leagues.
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OP sounds like he has a decent understanding of the game, but it might for example be the case that he is focusing on details too much / has wrong priorities. Myself, I notice a lot of lower players have 1-4 'builds' that they stick to, and aren't very good at adapting. These may depend on map and opponent's race. This was the same in SC1, and I think this is even more true in Korea. Some players can be quite fast at that build though, so it can still be tricky to spot and defend it.
I have an apm of 40-50 and i'm in platinum. So it can't be the apm
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Honestly, thank you for posting from a bronze perspective. It is sometimes very hard for people not in bronze to understand - and I think you did an excellent job posting.
In response, my brother is also a bronze player and I have been working with him since release. I have actually tried to explain to him how to play this guessing game you talk about, and to try to counter your best guess. It has defiantly helped him. While it does make for longer games, at least hes not being beaten in just a few mins.
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If you read 2 threads analyzing the games rating system it's not hard to understand why you can have a lot of games and still be in bronze (the top players in my bronze league have 500+ points and I've seen 700+). If it takes you a long time to get to a 50% win rate, the game is more confident that it's got your rating correct and thus it's more "reluctant" to move you up. It takes more wins against favored opponents to convince the game you're in the wrong league.
I think there's also an issue with it being somewhat difficult for "misplaced" players to fall out of higher leagues. I'm 20-ish bronze with 80 games, just getting to 50% win rate. I just got matched against a player who was like 69 gold and it was labeled as "teams even". I beat him pretty handily and when I looked at his profile his record was something like 9-20 with 0 points. The bottom 10 players in his league had records like 3-4, the 3 wins presumably being placement wins. It's as if, because they have so few games, the game is reluctant to move them down because it doesn't have enough info to be confident they don't belong where they are.
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I agree - being Bronze doesn't mean anything really - the game is just too new and there is a huge disbalance between divisions. Recent example: I am in Bronze (as stated earlier) and I was just matched against platinium league player (proof) and I won; now please kindly tell me what does it mean - the ladder is broken, I am on my way for promotion, the other player has reached plat only be knowing and practicing one BO or what?
It's just too easy to theorycraft, but as the game ages it's inevatable that the level of players will raise. Everybody needs to start from anywhere..meaning bronze most likely and gradually progress. As more experience is gathered we are going to see more and more predermined BOs - like if I play on X map against Y I am gonna do Z. To me it only tells me that people are making the first step from "let's turtle and get those I-win units (BCs, MS etc.) to developing strategies and trying to figure out how to get better.
Now, not everybody is playing SC2 to compete and that is something, that shall not be forgotten - many people, even in higher divisions, are only casual gamers , who want to have FUN. Surely, they like to win (who doesn't?), but the most important part is to enjoy oneself - not to compete and get additional stress in the process.
On a side note, I think that with all its awasomness (literaly) Blizzard's matching system lacks the option to just stay somewhere where one can just have fun playing. By trying to adjust who you play with, it makes you to always compete and not everbody wants that. Again the causal gamer only wants to have fun.
I would really enjoy to have the option to be in same noobie league (and stay there) just so I can go whenever I wish and play the crazy - lets make 20 BCs on 6 carriers + mothership games and have no pressure whatsoever.
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To be honest, the only thing keeping any players out of platinum is having a solid build order. The only reason you (or any player for that matter) are stuck in bronze is because you're making big mistakes. Just watch your replays, figure them out, correct them. Refine your build and that'll get you to gold level by itself.
p.s. I hope I don't get warned for this. Actually trying to help
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So many warnings... well atleast we can hope that the game evolves and becomes much more rewarding for people with better multitasking and skill.
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Why are so many people warned for their post on the front page and not being insulting and just offering help? Is it some kind of joke?
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2010 14:12 DarthGoose wrote:Show nested quote +They do plenty of random stuff in my experience though I'm only around 20 bronze atm. I just had a Zerg opponent go something like 9 hatch (it was half done when my 9 scout found him) before pool and then tech straight to Ultras. Or Ultra...I should use the singular since there was exactly 1 Ultra up by the time I got through spine crawlers blocking his ramp. Pretty sure he didn't produce more than maayyyybe 20 lings even after I started rallying my zealots straight into his base. The Ultras have probably worked plenty for him in the past because his opponents didn't appreciate how vulnerable he makes himself early. On the other hand, if he had a clue he'd have known better than to continue throwing all his money at tech once I started being so aggressive. I don't think he even attempted to scout me. Haha, I had a match around thirty bronze that my opponent was favored in. His build wast a 12ish expand and rush to dual port battle cruisers with ups without ever making a single non-worker unit before the battle cruisers.
I think I was rated even against my guy who was top-ish bronze. I've also had people build nothing but void rays. I've run into more than one BC rush but those opponents all built at least some lower tier units along the way.
Why are so many people warned for their post on the front page and not being insulting and just offering help? Is it some kind of joke?
For the same reason you don't already know the answer to that question: because they couldn't be arsed to read the OP or the rest of the thread.
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On September 01 2010 18:43 pantaray wrote:I am also in top Bronze, I have around 200 games. I am 29 years old. I have medium experience in all sorts of computer games. I reflect some insights of the OP by myself. Its either very cheesy (with backup-strategies too!) or very turtling. Here is a replay of me. When its so easy to get into diamond just with one BO. then plays watch it and tell me where my sticking point of play is. You can also watch my opponent and spot some sticking points of him too. I think it doesnt matter who is winning the game, because issues might be spotable anyway. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/69485-1v1-terran-protoss-kulasklammLooking forward for your insights, greetings from the bronze-ladder.
The 2 absolutely most important things you should try to do is:
1. Don't stop making probes, until you're maxed. The easiest way to know how much probes you have is to press ctrl and click on one probe, it will select all your probes on the screen except the ones in your assimilators. If it's a full page of probes, that means you have 26 total, which is enough for one base.
2. Use up all your resources, do not let them pile up.
In that particular game you often delayed queueing probes without a reason for it. You queued your 8th probe when you already had 100 minerals(should do it as soon as you have 50), you stayed at 16 probes until you had 300 minerals in the bank, you stayed at 18 probes until you had 650 minerals in the bank, e.t.c.
You just have to get used to constantly making probes and you have nothing else to do right at the start anyway.
The standard timing for your first pylon is when you're at 9/10 supply. That's enough of a build order at that level, since you're not used to following builds and it may seem tedious and not fun and it's better to understand why and how they work first, instead of just blindly using one over and over.
From then on you should try to keep constant attention to your resource count and use up all your resources, while constantly building probes and pylons as necessary.
Controlling 4 stalkers is less important then making 10 new ones with the resources you have in the bank. You should prioritize.
At your level making more units is much more important than controling them, so keep an eye on your resource count at all times and make sure you're producing new workers and combat units.
If you don't want your units to be lured into the enemy tanks, use hold position and then react when you get the you're under attack warning message. This way you won't have to do anything against his attempts to lure your units, while otherwise you would have to pull them back every single time and they will also suffer hits from the tanks, until you react.
In that game if you haven't spent the time to run your stalkers/void rays back and forth, but instead used that time to build more zealots or stalkers and simply attack-moved them, you would've won easily at that point in the game. This brings me to my next point...
Use attack-move. Press A on the keyboard and left click behind the enemy forces. You ran your army right next to the enemy units several times, while this should not happen. A range upgraded colossus should not get hit by turrets, since he has a longer range. Sometimes you had some of your units attacking, while the others just sat there, and this should not happen, as well.
You also had 4 bases, but made a total of 36 probes. That's simply not enough, you should have around 26 per base and up to 60-70 total, so you can have enough spare supply for your army.
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Stork doesnt look too confident.
EDIT: Oops wrong thread sozz.
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Streaming helped me a lot. I get to see exactly what I was thinking in a "live" sense. Also, the viewer count keeps me nervous and playing better than I usually would. I'm not recommending a bronze stream, but maybe gold it'll help you.
I still feel like in the lower leagues (I used to always be stuck in high ranked silver) the only thing people didn't get was how to react to unexpected situations. Weird stuff you don't see often ya lose to. Like on Steppes of War when a terran rushes a planetary fortress at YOUR natural expansion. That shit is pretty incredible! Or having a massive amount of void rays which you can easily defend against with your thors, but to throw dark templars with them in which you have no detectors, or the units ready to fight them when they reached your mineral line.
Keep at it man. Speed is a big issue. Micro isn't important either. Just mass up and be as fast as possible!
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I agree with all the warnings. It seriously damages my view of TL if casual Bronze players are treated without respect. If you think the OPs thoughts are worthless, just don't answer ffs.
Also keep in mind most players play for fun. And I don't think I`m the only one who thinks fun does not necessarily equal choosing one race, one BO, practicing nonstop and winning boring games rather than trying unconventional stuff, relying on ingame decisionmaking and losing exciting games.
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I have read some posts on TL but this one was the one that made me register in order to reply.
I am stuck on bronze as well. All these comments about "check day9 and watch a couple of replays" are just bull. I have watched dozens of dailies from day9 (and have gotten several good points that certainly have improved my vision of the game) as well as checked a lot of replays.
I have over 15 years of background in competetive online gaming (fps games only) with some playing around of rts such as c&c, supcom and so.
I too was expecting the lower level play to be "DURR what does this button do" but no, in the rare exception that I'm not cheesed with one or another strategy that totally screws up any attempt to maintain a specific plan or build order (that I've tried to mimic from those replays and videos) then it's an attack that I would have to really have microing skills and the sorts to handle.
The entry level for SC2 seems really a steep ladder to climb. I mean, checking the documentation in terms of replays and various commentators, doing training with builds (with yabot and the likes) and really learning to optimise to shave a few seconds off from this and that doesn't seem to be enough.
Please, have some respect towards your fellow gamers that are trying to have fun and improve instead of bashing them with those lame "lol bronze" comments. Thank you.
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On September 01 2010 20:42 pikkumyy wrote:
I have read some posts on TL but this one was the one that made me register in order to reply.
I am stuck on bronze as well. All these comments about "check day9 and watch a couple of replays" are just bull. I have watched dozens of dailies from day9 (and have gotten several good points that certainly have improved my vision of the game) as well as checked a lot of replays.
I have over 15 years of background in competetive online gaming (fps games only) with some playing around of rts such as c&c, supcom and so.
I too was expecting the lower level play to be "DURR what does this button do" but no, in the rare exception that I'm not cheesed with one or another strategy that totally screws up any attempt to maintain a specific plan or build order (that I've tried to mimic from those replays and videos) then it's an attack that I would have to really have microing skills and the sorts to handle.
The entry level for SC2 seems really a steep ladder to climb. I mean, checking the documentation in terms of replays and various commentators, doing training with builds (with yabot and the likes) and really learning to optimise to shave a few seconds off from this and that doesn't seem to be enough.
Please, have some respect towards your fellow gamers that are trying to have fun and improve instead of bashing them with those lame "lol bronze" comments. Thank you.
You're going completely in the wrong direction.
You should most definitely NOT be trying to optimize builds and you should most definitely NOT try to maintain a specific build regardless of circumstances. The first one is not worth it at your level, and the second one is plain bad, because you should be reacting to your opponent.
If you're in bronze your errors are much more basic.
You're not constatnly producing workers, you're not constantly spending your resources and you're not scouting/don't know how to respond to the enemy.
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On September 01 2010 20:42 pikkumyy wrote:
I have read some posts on TL but this one was the one that made me register in order to reply.
I am stuck on bronze as well. All these comments about "check day9 and watch a couple of replays" are just bull. I have watched dozens of dailies from day9 (and have gotten several good points that certainly have improved my vision of the game) as well as checked a lot of replays.
I have over 15 years of background in competetive online gaming (fps games only) with some playing around of rts such as c&c, supcom and so.
I too was expecting the lower level play to be "DURR what does this button do" but no, in the rare exception that I'm not cheesed with one or another strategy that totally screws up any attempt to maintain a specific plan or build order (that I've tried to mimic from those replays and videos) then it's an attack that I would have to really have microing skills and the sorts to handle.
The entry level for SC2 seems really a steep ladder to climb. I mean, checking the documentation in terms of replays and various commentators, doing training with builds (with yabot and the likes) and really learning to optimise to shave a few seconds off from this and that doesn't seem to be enough.
Please, have some respect towards your fellow gamers that are trying to have fun and improve instead of bashing them with those lame "lol bronze" comments. Thank you.
I think many newbies are too focused on watching replays and dailies, reading too much on these forums etc. If you just get the basic mechanics down, you'll be out of Bronze in no time... hell, I played like 10 games in the beta and I won all my placement matches outright when the game was released, and I'm quite horrible. All you really have to do is go for a standard build and focus 100% on macro. When you have a decent mid-game composition, push and win.
Not bashing you for being in bronze, just saying that it's not really about the game being hard, it's about focusing on the right things. To do Pro tactics you see in replays, you have to have your mechanics down 100% already. Shaving of a few seconds and such things are the stuff you learn to do in Diamond league, in Bronze it should all be about making units from all structures all the time and keeping money low. Doing that alone should get you out of bronze in no-time, regardless of build order or tactic.
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This thread has been a really interesting read. I have a RL friend who is currently in bronze, and he tries to fall into the turtling style. In the past couple weeks, I have played like 30-40 practice games with him because he wants to improve/wants me to help him break his turtling habit, and I can definitely see where this trend is coming into play. It's like you want to be safe and secure so you build a lot of defense without realizing the need to expand or you realize that it is time to expand too late. Not everyone needs to be super diamond pro because this is a game about having fun.
Hopefully with the stuff i've seen in this thread, i can help my friend out a bit more because he does really want to improve and knowing the trends will hopefully force him to expand more and work on his playstyle.
Also, its really sad to see everyone hating on the bronze players because sometimes they do very amazing plays it's just they don't have it planned out and it is a bit haphazard but if 40% of people are in bronze league, not all of them can be completely terrible at the game. starcraft is not something easy to get into at first.
Anyways, thank you OP for this insight, because I do find it interesting that bronze league is different from when I saw it. Hopefully it continues to develop into some two base play or something like that, and continues from there.
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On September 01 2010 20:13 wollhandkrabbe wrote:
I agree with all the warnings. It seriously damages my view of TL if casual Bronze players are treated without respect. If you think the OPs thoughts are worthless, just don't answer ffs.
How exactly are those posts disrespectful? They simply state that certain things are true for Bronze League that aren't found at higher leagues. It has nothing to do with the OP, personally.
On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting.
User was warned for this post
Is it offensive to state the obvious, that Bronze League isn't a level where you'd expect a lot of skill? This is a statistical fact of life. Instead, maybe people should instead stop being so embarassed about having poor skill. I'm a crappy player myself, macro-wise. Should people be warned every time they point out that I'm a poor macro-player? It's a fact, not an attempt at insult - unless they use a language that is clearly offensive.
On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
User was warned for this post
He's giving the OP both a compliment and a useful tip, and he's being warned for it?
On September 01 2010 12:26 Vz0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting. agree. dont want to be the "diamond pro" laughing at the "bronze noobs" but most people at bronze are not very efficient and unelss we are given a replay we seriously can't judge anything. There could be heavy macro mistakes in both parties that lead to an obscured gameplay. User was warned for this post
Again, this guy is stating a neutral fact about Bronze. Most Bronze players are not very efficient, or else they wouldn't be in Bronze. It's not an insult, it's an explanation to what Bronze League actually is.
I'm sorry, I just wanna know how people think. Is there some channel to use to give moderators feedback on how they handle things in this forum? I respect the rules of this forum and the moderators' words are final, but I also feel it's important to point out how ridiculous this seems. I would like to ask the owner of this website how much he moderates his own moderators, whenever they cross the line.
Again, not meant as insurrection, but if individual moderators go unchecked by their peers, then that can and will have some negative effects on this website's infrastructure. Suddenly people are afraid of discussing things, I mean.
The fact of the matter is that Starcraft 2 strategy is often about getting a personal reality check. Why are we not getting any better? Do people really want an answer or are we just pretending to care about it?
Just think it's strange, especially since a couple of disgusting, gay-bashing posts in "Gay Starcraft Players" have gone completely unwarned.
Suggestion:
Maybe the webmaster could add a more democratic system with a +/- function for each post, similar to what they have at Youtube.com. A general warning might not always "hit home", because people might not always see the logic of that warn. But if forumers themselves can, plurally, give a "score" to the posts, then maybe that reflect a little more accurately how offensive the posts really are.
After all, what is offensive and not can actually be highly subjective.
Thanks!
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2010 13:14 Vz0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:33 ltortoise wrote:On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze?. Mechanics. I spent my first 100 games in the beta in copper, back when copper still existed. I was so excited to play SC2 when I heard about the beta that I tried getting into brood war during my wait. I massed games of brood war. Played hundreds. Never made it past D- on iccup. Of course, it also occurred to me that many of the D and above level brood war players had been playing brood war for...Quite some time! My mechanics in SC2 were also my limiting factor. It's easy to be limited by mechanics. Intelligence and mechanics have nothing to do with each other, but BOTH are requisite for high level play. errrr you played 100 games and you were still in copper? -__________-" ! I don't think your the same "gamer" as the rest of us. User was warned for this post
God the stench of elitism is rank in here!
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Sadly I have a feeling given enough time it will all become so standard that it will get boring, a lot of diamond players also fall into this same trend just with better mechanics/macro/micro. But still this is a good read into your division of play
ps love all these warnings keep up the good work, and good luck with your gaming OP
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A lot of the campaign missions consist of you defending until you have a large enough army to push out and complete the objectives, this may contribute to the fact that newer players like to play safe.
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On September 01 2010 21:32 Inkarnate wrote:
A lot of the campaign missions consist of you defending until you have a large enough army to push out and complete the objectives, this may contribute to the fact that newer players like to play safe.
I agree, the campaign is highly biased by design, towards one type of play. Naturally, this will be what people get used to.
Ultimately, in order to rise in League, it's all about getting the knowledge, understanding and practice outside of the campaign - although the campaign is in no way unusable for this.
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Lol what's with the bashing.
I find it interesting to hear about the game's development, it happening in bronze isn't any less worth than diamond to me.
If these standard strategies develop, then you should have a pretty nice learning path ahead of you. Practicing against the same build order a lot is always good, when you find a good counter to it you'll sky rocket out of bronze!
GL Hf!
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Well, I'm playing Protoss in the Bronze League too. And have even fewer games than the OP does under my belt. I guess I'm one of the types of player's he's kinda complaining about. I wall off very quickly and build off my main base until I'm ready to move out.
The reason is simple. If I tried to execute the simple "core" build orders for Protoss, 5 out of 6 games I'd lose to a Zerg player with a 6 pool or a Terran with a proxy Rax right outside my base. By walling off my ramp with a gateway and a couple pylons (and a zealot or two in front of the wall), I actually have a chance to play a full game.
And what I've found is that if I can negate the early all-in rush to win, then my opponent often doesn't know enough about the macro game to beat me. My win percentage has gone up quite a bit once I started this opening strategy.
To be clear: I'm not asking for suggestions either. I read TL forums and watch casts most of the day at work (the joys of working on a computer service desk ... lots of dead time between trouble tickets). And my mechanics are getting better. I figure my biggest issue in not moving up more quickly is that I can only play 1-3 games a night; so it takes a while to learn how to put what I know into practice.
I just wanted to give some perspective to the OP on why some of us have learned to wall off right away and why his early rushes aren't being as successful as they used to be. It's how we've learned to survive.
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To whichever mod is busting out the warnings and banhammers in this thread, good call.
I'm glad that the skill floor in multiplayer is rising. It means that by the time the next ladder reset happens (or if it happens), the higher leagues will be a greater goal to work towards. Many of the people in the higher leagues now entered those leagues when most players were probably still playing single player, so it was much easier back then. It might be a different story next time.
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well Im kind stuck too, but i receive one bnet drop in each 3 games ....
literally ....
my actual win/loss ratio would be 75% if it was not for drops, but i dont care either way, just have fun if u dont get d/c very often i believe u will go from silver in no time straight from gold ...
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I think a lot of the warnings were not just for bad manners, but being off topic and not reading the OP, he was not asking advice on how to be better in his gameplay.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Canada9720 Posts
I didn't do any of the warnings, but stop derailing the thread about them. Stay on topic, please. Any moderation feedback should go in the website feedback forum.
No more posts about the warnings please.
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OP - I'm in a similar situation (In silver, but always playing against diamond for some reason...) and I notice the same things.
As far as improving... get a practice partner from these forums (PM me if you want.. I'd be more than happy to assist) that will help you. Two people working more towards bettering themselves is always going to be more productive than two people trying to win vs each other. (Till you have the basics mastered).
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It's ever interesting to learn how the players community is evolving, don't care about ranks.
Also is interesting to see the difference between SC1 and SC2 because ofc the SC2 lowest ranks are/was really new players (also new to RTS some time) instead of SC1 ICCup where most of the time also D- players are experienced players.
I suggest to you to watch a lot of pro replays/vods and copy their style. I think that rushes and cheese will ever work especially at low ranks so try to learn all the already developed cheesy builds and improve your micro than try to make your own pimp builds which will work because the game is very new.
Thx op make more ^^ GL
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On September 01 2010 21:02 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 20:42 pikkumyy wrote:
I have read some posts on TL but this one was the one that made me register in order to reply.
I am stuck on bronze as well. All these comments about "check day9 and watch a couple of replays" are just bull. I have watched dozens of dailies from day9 (and have gotten several good points that certainly have improved my vision of the game) as well as checked a lot of replays.
I have over 15 years of background in competetive online gaming (fps games only) with some playing around of rts such as c&c, supcom and so.
I too was expecting the lower level play to be "DURR what does this button do" but no, in the rare exception that I'm not cheesed with one or another strategy that totally screws up any attempt to maintain a specific plan or build order (that I've tried to mimic from those replays and videos) then it's an attack that I would have to really have microing skills and the sorts to handle.
The entry level for SC2 seems really a steep ladder to climb. I mean, checking the documentation in terms of replays and various commentators, doing training with builds (with yabot and the likes) and really learning to optimise to shave a few seconds off from this and that doesn't seem to be enough.
Please, have some respect towards your fellow gamers that are trying to have fun and improve instead of bashing them with those lame "lol bronze" comments. Thank you. You're going completely in the wrong direction. You should most definitely NOT be trying to optimize builds and you should most definitely NOT try to maintain a specific build regardless of circumstances. The first one is not worth it at your level, and the second one is plain bad, because you should be reacting to your opponent. If you're in bronze your errors are much more basic. You're not constatnly producing workers, you're not constantly spending your resources and you're not scouting/don't know how to respond to the enemy.
Good advices. OP should follow them. Dont try to micro your units. Dont even do this in bronze. This isnt a game about micro especially in bronze league. Create workers, production buildings and units. When your base is saturated and you have 15+ units, expand. When your 2 base are saturated and you have below 500 minerals, push and win. As simple as that. Especially as a terran : you can push against towers with your siege tanks, you can defend easily with a wall-in and you can scout easily with scans.
Not to brag or anything but before playing SC2 I didnt played any RTS games. I was in platinum during beta and now diamond by playing 150 games overall. I think my competitive background (I played CS) helped me a lot. Ive a lot of friends who are in top french CS teams aswell and just picked up RTS with SC2. They are already in diamond in 2-3 weeks.
Starcraft 2 is a game with certain mechanics. I think playing on a high level video game teams helped us understand the basic mechanics and exploit them.
Workers, buildings, units, keep your money low, energy low on CC and be as fast as possible at everything you do.
Its easy to say but having these kind of background helped us reach these goals faster than you.
Everytime you see a replay or do a mistake, you should not to it again, ever. Its hard to do but you should concentrate on it.
Make workers, buildings, workers, units, workers, expand, workers, buildings, units, workers, units, push -> win.
Dont try to micro, attack move into his base and win. If he turtles, expand more and more and more. Eventually you'll win.
Dont try to cheese and work on your mechanics. Its not about the win its about improving your macro.
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On September 01 2010 21:19 Zoroth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 20:13 wollhandkrabbe wrote:
I agree with all the warnings. It seriously damages my view of TL if casual Bronze players are treated without respect. If you think the OPs thoughts are worthless, just don't answer ffs. How exactly are those posts disrespectful? They simply state that certain things are true for Bronze League that aren't found at higher leagues. It has nothing to do with the OP, personally. Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting.
User was warned for this post Is it offensive to state the obvious, that Bronze League isn't a level where you'd expect a lot of skill? This is a statistical fact of life. Instead, maybe people should instead stop being so embarassed about having poor skill. I'm a crappy player myself, macro-wise. Should people be warned every time they point out that I'm a poor macro-player? It's a fact, not an attempt at insult - unless they use a language that is clearly offensive. Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
User was warned for this post He's giving the OP both a compliment and a useful tip, and he's being warned for it? Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:26 Vz0 wrote:On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting. agree. dont want to be the "diamond pro" laughing at the "bronze noobs" but most people at bronze are not very efficient and unelss we are given a replay we seriously can't judge anything. There could be heavy macro mistakes in both parties that lead to an obscured gameplay. User was warned for this post Again, this guy is stating a neutral fact about Bronze. Most Bronze players are not very efficient, or else they wouldn't be in Bronze. It's not an insult, it's an explanation to what Bronze League actually is. I'm sorry, I just wanna know how people think. Is there some channel to use to give moderators feedback on how they handle things in this forum? I respect the rules of this forum and the moderators' words are final, but I also feel it's important to point out how ridiculous this seems. I would like to ask the owner of this website how much he moderates his own moderators, whenever they cross the line. Again, not meant as insurrection, but if individual moderators go unchecked by their peers, then that can and will have some negative effects on this website's infrastructure. Suddenly people are afraid of discussing things, I mean. The fact of the matter is that Starcraft 2 strategy is often about getting a personal reality check. Why are we not getting any better? Do people really want an answer or are we just pretending to care about it? Just think it's strange, especially since a couple of disgusting, gay-bashing posts in "Gay Starcraft Players" have gone completely unwarned. Suggestion:Maybe the webmaster could add a more democratic system with a +/- function for each post, similar to what they have at Youtube.com. A general warning might not always "hit home", because people might not always see the logic of that warn. But if forumers themselves can, plurally, give a "score" to the posts, then maybe that reflect a little more accurately how offensive the posts really are. After all, what is offensive and not can actually be highly subjective. Thanks!
I agree with your post, specifically several of the people complimenting the OP and offering sound suggestions, yet they still get warned.
I pointed this out and got warned for pointing out and I can only assume you will too, I don't know what's going on with the overzealous moderation in this particular thread but someone has gone warn happy it seems.
(One or two were slightly rough on the front page but most quite good responses)
Weird.
User was temp banned for this post.
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It's pretty damn interesting to hear what it's like in the Bronze league. Most of us TLers either Diamond or Platinum, so hats off to the OP for being the proud Bronze leaguer. IMO the OP has more worth as a person than most of these people Diamond players in these forums.
I believe the meta-game in the Bronze league is as innocent as it can be compared to the other leagues that have players who have done their share of research of BOs, tactics, etc. When the game started out, I'm guessing that most Bronze league players would just rush and cheese without even knowing that they were cheesing or going all-in. Eventually players would learn that if they defend 1 or 2 pushes they would win with ease. Eventually the loyal cheesey and rushing players will alter their build so that they wouldn't fall behind so much. It must be really cute to watch Bronze players go at it lol.
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On September 01 2010 22:12 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:19 Zoroth wrote:On September 01 2010 20:13 wollhandkrabbe wrote:
I agree with all the warnings. It seriously damages my view of TL if casual Bronze players are treated without respect. If you think the OPs thoughts are worthless, just don't answer ffs. How exactly are those posts disrespectful? They simply state that certain things are true for Bronze League that aren't found at higher leagues. It has nothing to do with the OP, personally. On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting.
User was warned for this post Is it offensive to state the obvious, that Bronze League isn't a level where you'd expect a lot of skill? This is a statistical fact of life. Instead, maybe people should instead stop being so embarassed about having poor skill. I'm a crappy player myself, macro-wise. Should people be warned every time they point out that I'm a poor macro-player? It's a fact, not an attempt at insult - unless they use a language that is clearly offensive. On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
User was warned for this post He's giving the OP both a compliment and a useful tip, and he's being warned for it? On September 01 2010 12:26 Vz0 wrote:On September 01 2010 12:16 Kolvacs wrote:
Not to be a douche or anything, but it's bronze league.
I'm not sure what your expecting. agree. dont want to be the "diamond pro" laughing at the "bronze noobs" but most people at bronze are not very efficient and unelss we are given a replay we seriously can't judge anything. There could be heavy macro mistakes in both parties that lead to an obscured gameplay. User was warned for this post Again, this guy is stating a neutral fact about Bronze. Most Bronze players are not very efficient, or else they wouldn't be in Bronze. It's not an insult, it's an explanation to what Bronze League actually is. I'm sorry, I just wanna know how people think. Is there some channel to use to give moderators feedback on how they handle things in this forum? I respect the rules of this forum and the moderators' words are final, but I also feel it's important to point out how ridiculous this seems. I would like to ask the owner of this website how much he moderates his own moderators, whenever they cross the line. Again, not meant as insurrection, but if individual moderators go unchecked by their peers, then that can and will have some negative effects on this website's infrastructure. Suddenly people are afraid of discussing things, I mean. The fact of the matter is that Starcraft 2 strategy is often about getting a personal reality check. Why are we not getting any better? Do people really want an answer or are we just pretending to care about it? Just think it's strange, especially since a couple of disgusting, gay-bashing posts in "Gay Starcraft Players" have gone completely unwarned. Suggestion:Maybe the webmaster could add a more democratic system with a +/- function for each post, similar to what they have at Youtube.com. A general warning might not always "hit home", because people might not always see the logic of that warn. But if forumers themselves can, plurally, give a "score" to the posts, then maybe that reflect a little more accurately how offensive the posts really are. After all, what is offensive and not can actually be highly subjective. Thanks! I agree with your post, specifically several of the people complimenting the OP and offering sound suggestions, yet they still get warned. I pointed this out and got warned for pointing out and I can only assume you will too, I don't know what's going on with the overzealous moderation in this particular thread but someone has gone warn happy it seems. (One or two were slightly rough on the front page but most quite good responses) Weird.
A rating system for comments is a brilliant idea! i seen it done in some websites. Some with better success then others but i wouldn't mind seeing tl beta test it
edit-my bad i rly deserved that 
User was warned for this post
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My only experience with the Bronze league were my first 2 placement matches 2 days ago, and I disagree. All they did was sit in their base the whole game. Both games ended as soon as I got mutas. I'm not sure if you mean 6pool or whatever, but that doesn't really work anyway. Most people are overly scared at the low levels actually and play extremely defensively. Back in early beta when I intentionally lost all 5 of my placement matches and went to copper, I think that the level back then was either higher or at least the same. Back then at least the beta people were most likely pretty big gamers, now there's gazillions of complete newbies in the bronze league.
So judging by those 2 games nah, you can still win with early aggression if you do it properly. About the "lack of mechanics" thing, everyone below Platinum has awful mechanics. 30 APM are all you need until at least platinum. Just concentrate on early harrassment and builds that force your opponents to multitask and they all will crumble.
Mechanics are also extremely easy to get better at until a certain level, much easier than you'd think. If you for 3 hours a day practice a build order where you try to go as fast as possible, after a few days you will most likely 1. have clearly above 100 apm 2. be able to do a build perfectly, letting you easily cruise into at least platinum. Most people just don't bother, because they think that they won't learn, or mechanics are things some people have or some don't or whatever.
My friend was an awful SCBW player who didn't manage to stay even at D- and lost 95% of all his games and was just really bad. In SC2 he was placed in silver and is now in the Gold league and does things correctly now. He's been improving really fast. I'm not sure why that is, but at least he's been listening to my advice... He had about 20-30 APM in SCBW but now that he's tried to improve it in SC2 his APM is around 80 in every game and that's getting him along just fine.
You can improve your mechanics really easily if you put effort into it. During the course of about 2 months I improved my SCBW APM from 80-100 to 220 by just playing without playing to win, but rather playing to do everything as fast as possible.
EDIT: Huh, if you're in the Bronze league and not even aiming/trying to get better, is this seriously the correct forum
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That's interesting to hear that in 1v1s people are massing BCs/voids/ultras in bronze. I'm waiting until i get diamond in 4v4 and 2v2 still before i even try 1v1s (cause i'm a scaredy cat). Usually that "mass up tier 3 units" used to be limited to FFA in beta.
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I don't think the level of play is that bad in the lower levels, seems to me (based on my mate who is in silver) that a lot of the play is one dimensional.
Embarrassingly, I got rolled by a silver terran last night who pulled off a particularly nasty 3 rax timing push which I didn't quite read until too late. (I saw 2 raxes but the third was really late).
I have to say my experience in diamond that the level of play has increased a lot in the month since release. It's not quite what it was in the beta, but it's getting there.
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Osaka27128 Posts
On September 01 2010 18:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
If you have a problem or question about the way I mod, PM me or make a thread in website feedback. Do not derail the thread.
Not reading the thread is harmful to your posting health.
I'm going to lock the thread now to save stupid people from themselves. Unfortunately, I suspect it is like using duct tape on a leaky dam, you are all going to get washed away at some point.
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EPT
