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I've noticed some different patterns in lower leagues as well. It seems that many new players tend to favor builds that are the "safest." I've seen a lot more experimentation in higher level leagues.
Oh, and.. Power trippin. Really. A lot of times It seems that admins and moderators forget why they exist. I don't like what you've said, so I'm going to warn you. Elitist attitudes are detrimental to any community, but haphazardly handing out warnings to people who may just want to help a dude out?
I get your point. People think he's bad because he's been in Bronze for a long time, and you don't like the fact that people are making these assumptions. But you are warning people who are sincerely trying to help him out.
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OK nice post, good thing you talk about something like that, cause isnt tl a website for ALL SC2 players
Does "all players" include "people who don't want to improve"?
I think there's a massive difference between "lol bronze stfu" and the idea that one should work on improving and getting out of bronze instead of complaining about the poor and unimaginative play found therein.
Just because he didn't name the thread "Observations and complaints" doesn't mean those complaints aren't there. And when people post complaints, it's a pretty damn natural reaction to give advice on how to avoid those problems.
Unless this is the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants and we're just supposed to listen and understand, in which case, my mistake.
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Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speech anyone?
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On September 01 2010 16:55 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:50 Rokk wrote:Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety. Actually he's not "just giving observations". He's also complaining about the game not being fun because people are doing this. See: Show nested quote +This creates a problem for me as a player who likes to rush, sieze an advantage and then keep pushing. It seems that the game is now more about macro and patience, no one is willing to take any risks, just mass a big blob and wait.
I really hate the fact that games are taking longer. Maybe it's you who didn't read the entire post, as that part is close to the end? Anyway, what is the observation? People who have played 150 games are learning basic defensive strategies? That's kind of obvious. The real question is "why are they still in Bronze?". EDIT: and that question is not elitism. It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask - why are these players, who are clearly not newbies, not succeeding?
Where in those quotes does it suggest that he was asking for advice? Hes giving his opinion as to why the style of gameplay in bronze isnt enjoyable. He never said he wants help. In fact, given that he is top of bronze, im pretty sure he doesnt really "need" help at that point against the other bronze players.
On September 01 2010 16:56 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:50 Rokk wrote:On September 01 2010 16:37 kojinshugi wrote:
EDIT: what's with all the warnings? I mean, the OP isn't really providing some amazing insight into Bronze. People are in Bronze because they're doing it wrong or they're brand new. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the OP stops doing it wrong, because Bronze is certainly not going to change, except that most players actually do get out of there, if they keep playing said league at all. Because he's not asking for advice. He's just giving his observations in how gameplay in the bronze league has evolved since the beginning of the game. It's pretty clear that anyone giving him advice hasn't actually read the OP in its entirety. Just because he hasn't asked for advice does't mean you can't give it. TLer's see someone in bronze and just want to help. The whole site is pretty much about getting better at SC.
You are correct. There is one problem. The "advice" that many people are giving here includes examples like:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon here. I don't get how you can be a functioning, intelligent human being and be stuck in bronze with 100+ games. You can do literally anything and get out of bronze. I have a friend whose strategy is to rush two-robo mass immortal and he just got to plat.
so you can't rush anymore and thats why u whine?
don't care about the metagame - play a safe build and adapt...
People just love to stroke their own e-peens so much that when these elitist asswipes saw the word "Bronze" in the title, they decided to jump in here to give their pretentious, backhanded "advice".
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone?
From TL.net 10 commandments:
We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness."
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone?
+1 This >.>
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2010 17:25 Supamang wrote:
Where in those quotes does it suggest that he was asking for advice?
You don't need to say "help me obi wan!" to elicit responses that give advice. "I am in the Bronze league and I'm finding the games boring and not fun" is a complaint, and a public complaint is an implicit request for advice. Unless, as I said, this is some sort of knitting club where we cry on each others' shoulders.
Hes giving his opinion as to why the style of gameplay in bronze isnt enjoyable. He never said he wants help. In fact, given that he is top of bronze, im pretty sure he doesnt really "need" help at that point against the other bronze players.
He's not giving his opinion as to why. He's describing what is happening, not why it's happening.
And I don't think you understand how the leagues work. If he doesn't need help against Bronze players, he'd be in Silver.
People just love to stroke their own e-peens so much that when these elitist asswipes saw the word "Bronze" in the title, they decided to jump in here to give their pretentious, backhanded "advice".
That's just horseshit. Yeah, some of them were rude. But the warnings were given out to anyone who said "here's some ways to beat those turtles that you so dislike" and "you shouldn't be in Bronze in the first place".
Well, you shouldn't! That's the entire point of games, to improve. Starting out in Bronze is fine, but staying there is most emphatically not.
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speech anyone?
I'm guessing it's for derailing a thread. The OP was giving us interesting observations what people were up to in the Bronze league, and the 'warned' responses were telling him irrelevant stuff about how to get better, which he didn't ask for.
Also remember this is Teamliquid. You won't get far with the mods demanding your freedom of speech like that 
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On September 01 2010 17:27 Alphonsse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone? From TL.net 10 commandments: Show nested quote +We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness."
Okay, now ignore the "Freedom of speech anyone?" part and reply to the actual point he made.
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I think what you're experiencing is just playing against better players OP.
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On September 01 2010 17:36 Aim Here wrote:The OP was giving us interesting observations what people were up to in the Bronze league, and the 'warned' responses were telling him irrelevant stuff about how to get better, which he didn't ask for.
"People in Bronze league play rigidly and defensively".
Someone get this man a Pulitzer, stat!
User was temp banned for this post.
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Sometimes people can really behave idioticly (is there such word?). Just because you are much better player than somebody else, it doesn't mean you MUST give an advice.
I think the OP clearly isn't about looking about advices, but rather an insight about current trends in Bronze. If player's frustration can be noticed, it is not the main point of the OP. Why don't you just develop some social skills - if you don't have something meaningful to say it, than just don't.
And yeah, yeah - I am as well in Bronze, 9th place in my league. I have NO RTS background. I started with Zerg, which probably is the most difficult race to start with, but I so much enjoy playhing the swarm I would not leave it for anything. You may flame now - no problemo.
However do not make the mistake to think, that because somebody is in Bronze, he/she is playing other bronzers only. I personally check every player I was put against and I noticed I played only one bronzer (he was first in his league) and other than him gold and silver players only. I am proud to say I have well over 50% win ratio against these people, because it means I learnt something, I have developed some skills and acumulated some knowledge about the game - and that is all that matters. We are all here to share knowledge and experince in order for all of us to get better and feel part of the community, don't we? I am pretty confident, that if TLO/IdrA/make-your-pick comes here and start telling to stfu/l2p to all low-mid even hi diamond players how are you gonna feel about it?
However, the point is (as somebody said well before me) knowing what to do and what to look for, doesn't mean one has the pure skills to do so eg. I know I have to macro, while macroing, but can I multitask it?
Please, do contribute, don't just flame people for lack of skills ... //
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I have also encountered this against a DIAMOND player. He was toss and walled in himself with cannons and forge. Then he just massed DTs while I was thinking he was making Void rays all the time.
FML!
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On September 01 2010 17:24 Rokit5 wrote:
Whats up with all these warnings?? Several of the people being "warned" wrote fine constructive responses. Freedom of speach anyone?
No.
The Op wrote a though provoking piece about the lack of creative play in his Division
pointing out that many people keep repeating the same strats based on map selection
and that hes starting to notice it quite a lot.
Then, a whole lot of ignorant A-hats proceeded to post...."still in bronze what a noob" reply's
followed by their retarded advice for "escaping bronze"!
Rather than actually bothering to read and understand the post and formulate an intelligent response.
Bravo to the mods..you guys do a great job here.
and to the OP......I would argue that the lower legues have generally always suffered from a lack of creative play, as its hard enough to just wrap your head around the mechanics of controlling the game efficiently at that level let alone to even begin to experiment with build orders and unit compositions etc to any great extent
that fact that your noticing stagnating play patterns probably just means mean that your getting better at the game.
in fact, from what i can see the blind repetition of successful strategies on certain maps is a trend that extends all the way through into diamond ....proving, in my opinion, you don't really have to be intelligent to be really successful in the higher leagues. ( a hypothesis born out by some of the genius posters in this thread)
also the defenders advantage is something that's hardwired into the game and a fact that is just better accepted and accommodated for....its blizzards intention that it exists....its allows a skill differential between players where skilled players can be aggressive and still macro well, conversely defensive players get to have there units right next to there structures for easier macro/micro but they aren't able to dictate the flow of the game (*unless they're Terran)
*biased Zerg fanboi
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I noticed this myself, actually.
I'm somewhere in the lower half of diamond as far as my skill level goes, but I lost a ton of games this morning to demote myself to bronze so I could get a bunch of easy wins and have fun working my way back up. In most matchups (I play random) I've had to resort to a midgame push instead of rushing really hard since people are just turtling behind cannons and teching to void rays or w/e.
If you scout them playing defensively, just fast expand and prepare for whatever their midgame plan is (void rays, mutas, banshees, etc). If they're going for something lategame like battlecruisers, you can fast expand and still get there before they do because of your greater economy.
Work on your scouting. Most of my losses in plat and diamond came from not scouting tech switches properly.
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lol so many warnings in this thread its funny
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Osaka27179 Posts
If you have a problem or question about the way I mod, PM me or make a thread in website feedback. Do not derail the thread.
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Nice OP. But you have to take into the account that as your game knowledge changes so does your view on your opponent's play.
The turtle bit is nothing new though, new players love this kind of 1-base-fortress style. I have friends on LANs that even after all these years (in bw) sunken up one base even with zerg and have no plans for expanding ever o_O. What might have changed right now in SC2 is that players are starting to decide on race and a build they like to mimic.
Regarding long games;You might want to convert from rushing to a more harassment-oriented style. This will keep the game interesting since you will have something to do and will end many games sooner even if they are turtling. If you annoy them enough they may quit or attack you for an easy game. As a terran you have a dozen or so ways to harass.
You could also switch to a race that needs more players and practice bling-busts, should be a fun way to get some shorter games 
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I assume the ranking system is designed to keep the bottom 20% of players in bronze leagues, so I find the idea (commonly touted on this forum) that the lower leagues should be empty, frankly, to be laughable. Logically, as players get better, the standard at the bottom will improve the most relative to where it is now, so it's hardly surprising that bronze players are better now than they were.
I was basically a newcomer to Starcraft with Wings of Liberty, so I spent my early learning period in bronze and gold, and I can say that the players I played against are better than people here say they are. If I had never been in the lower leagues, and just took what was written here for granted, I would probably think anybody who wasn't in Diamond was probably a monkey who'd been frontally lobotomised. The trash talk is that bad.
1) The 80% of people who play this game outside of Diamond league are not as bad as you say they are.
2) The idea that everyone can improve and get into Diamond doesn't really make sense on a large scale since Diamond can only hold 20% of the population.
3) Most players are improving anyway, and since they can't all get into Diamond this means that the leagues they are in will get more competitive as time goes on.
4) The standard of the lower leagues is bound to increase at a faster rate than Diamond the lower you go.
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EPT
