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It's mostly the subtle things new players miss, we don't even consider it once we get to higher leagues. I have friends that get a harass off successfully, killing a dozen workers, but they still come out behind economicly a few minutes later, because they stopped building workers themselves in favor of pumping out a force meant to end the game. Anyone in higher leagues knows that's turning your advantage into an all or nothing attack, which doesn't make much sense.
Knowing that it's safe to put a new base up while you send an attack out is another thing that isn't common sense, but by the time your force dies or you're smart enough to pull it back, you got a new fully functional base up. and if you remembered to keep making workers throughout the game, you can send half of them to the new base, double your barracks count be all set up to build a larger force quickly. Not knowing little things like that keep players in bronze.
Turtling wins when games are mostly 1 base vs 1 base, so top bronze players falling into a turtling trend doesn't surprise me. It will win them games until they find someone who actually knows how to grow their economy to a point where they can counter it. Doesn't take long to do.
edit: another big one is remembering to keep producing while you attack. A lot of new players push out with a force and it dies and then go back to their base and start from scratch. Producing constantly gives you a head start on that scenario.
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On September 01 2010 12:15 dacthehork wrote:
How can you sound this intelligent and be stuck in bronze? I understand being in bronze if you are new, but if you spend some time watching replays (and copying) you should be out in no time. Even without any apm/mechanics.
Honestly just find a good build order for each match up and refine it in practice games against comp until you can decently execute it. Then do it over and over in bronze and you will be out in no time.
User was warned for this post
I'm pretty sure he's enjoying playing in the bronze league cause the players there are equal to him in skill?
I mean, anyone can get out of Bronze if they want to by cheesing everygame. But that's no fun.
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It is interesting to consider that matchmaking system may cause a stagnation of strategy at the lower leagues. As similarly-skilled players constantly play each other, many will fall into a 'local minimum' well of effective strategies that are easy to pull off and win consistently at their level, but will never succeed past that.
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BRONZE.
That is all.
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
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Responses are making this sound like if the bronzers have gained consciousness or something like that.
August 31, 2010: Reports of sights of intelligence in bronze league.
December 3, 2010: All the bronzers have advanced into upper leagues.
January 9, 2011: A bronzer qualifies for GSL2.
January 15, 2011: Skynet launches a nuclear attack on the east.
August 29, 1997: Judgement day.
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On September 01 2010 14:51 gaizka wrote:
Responses are making this sound like if the bronzers have gained consciousness or something like that.
August 31, 2010: Reports of sights of intelligence in bronze league.
December 3, 2010: All the bronzers have advanced into upper leagues.
January 9, 2011: A bronzer qualifies for GSL2.
January 15, 2011: Skynet launches a nuclear attack on the east.
August 29, 1997: Judgement day.
So epic rofl
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On September 01 2010 12:38 Purind wrote:
He's saying people are defending more, and thus it's harder to be aggressive. He's also saying Bronze players are somewhat more organized than before, having an actual plan and getting certain composition for certain matchups. At bronze, I would expect people doing random shit without any clue. I'd expect the turtling -> tech part, but I wouldn't things like the map trends that the OP talks about
It's not related to bronze league. For instance I used to play terran and when I decide to, I turtle HEAVILY just because it's a safe move with terrans. Just let the enemy sacrifice whatever army he has on your defenses then steamroll him.
I'm in diamond...
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On September 01 2010 14:50 Lunchbox wrote:
BRONZE.
That is all.
Wow, like 10+ people has already been warned for "lol bronze!" comments and you thought this was a good post....? Way to contribute.....
On topic, I remember when I was playing SCBW back when I was around 11-12 when the game was new. The only way I could safely beat the computer was turtling with 30-50 cannons while massing carriers. People who doesn't know any good unit compositions and have little game knowledge will always look for these I WIN units to just mass and end the game with.
A good way to break someone who turtles as terran is getting a good Tier 1-1.5 army and fast tanks with siege mode. Your tanks should be out long before ultras / carriers / BCs becomes a problem, and you can just blast all static defences without any losses. Drops is another good way of getting around people turtling. The safest way tho is just to keep scanning and build counters to what they are building, then when their death push comes you have a million vikings waiting for them (or marauders / BCs / banshees vs ultras).
Turtling will however always lead to long games unless you do some super early rushes or proxys, there isn't really any way around that unless you are much better than your opponent.
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Playing defensively is easier than playing offensively, especially when trying to figure out the game. Breaking that mindset requires understanding of timing, unit knowledge, teching opportunities, good army mixes etc. Which is a bit tough for a non-RTS player.
If you are trying to play with no outside help, defense is easier, attacking is more dangerous. Especially if you feel like you are playing "blind."
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It would be cool if the ecosystem of buildorders and strategies in bronze league was like what TLO mentioned in the liquid weekly, where hours after trying out and winning with a strategy you can have it done against you. the reason why that doesn't happen in the diamond foreign leagues is a difference in mentality and an ego thing - i know my build works and I will MAKE it work against your unorthodox one. Whereas in bronze they could see a new strat like zealot phoenix or something (not recommended lol) and be like COOL I WANT TO TRY.
thus the trends you speak of, while they do exist in plat and diamond mainly stem from replays and vods of tournaments, whereas in bronze they could actually stem from ladder games - which makes it very interesting. The best case scenario would be that a player legitly in bronze but improving at a fast rate takes a totally unorthodox strategy that he learned there, backs it up with better and better mechanics as he improves and storms the diamond league with it. That would be awesome.
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This thread has mighty amounts of red text. I am amused.
On topic: Turtling and massing units is easier than attacking/microing units, simply because it has fewer demands on APM. That's the primary problem with low level players, it's not that they're stupid; they're not. Bronzies have slower hands than Diamonds, and as a result can only do 1 thing at a time. Hence--
1) Defend by spamming defensive buildings
2) 30 minutes of ...something?
3) 200/200 BC army gogogo
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Its good how people are getting better. i am wondering which players will rise to the top!
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Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
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On September 01 2010 15:18 ZerOsAndOnEs wrote:
Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
Because the OP was not asking for, nor was the thread about, getting shitty advice from bad diamond players who think they're hot shit. Instead, as Manifesto pointed out, was just a thread made to discuss an observation he had.
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On September 01 2010 15:18 ZerOsAndOnEs wrote:
Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
I believe it's because the OP never asked for help, he simply made a post about his observations in the bronze league.
Also lots of the post were just "How can you still be in the bronze league after 100 games" not exactly helpful.
Edit: Beaten
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This thread is a clear example of what's wrong with TL
I love TL, A LOT
but the problem is it's not a friendly place for low level players like myself (Gold) and the OP
We are forced to lurk. Any sort of input or opinions are irrelevant because of our skill level. It's feels like we don't deserve to post because we're not good enough.
SO WHAT if the OP is in Bronze...He's merely stating his observations. Why does he have to be crucified for this? What if other Bronze players are interested in his observations?
I know that TL wasn't this bad before SC2 came out but I guess with the new game came new members and unfortunately with horrible manners.
Anyway on topic
The way the game is evolving is quite interesting. Day9 said something about in the early day of SC and SCBW ppl tend look for the easy ways to win rather than finding safe and stable ways to win (i.e. Macro)
I think in all divisions this is happening just at different rates. People who have followed SCBW and reads up on stuff on TL and other sites, knows how SC works: Macro Macro MACRO. However, for those who weren't they'll learning a new game.
For example, I have a co-worker who played SC (not BW) and was fairly successful in his game play (according to him). He still has the mentality of rushing and quick wins. He was even trying to teach me the extractor trick like it was some new phenomenon. Long story short, he's finally starting to understand the importance of Macro (i think). His game is slowly mimicking those in diamond league (he's in Plat).
The new players will slowly learn the "normal" way to play eventually when they get more practice.
But for now, expect to see very different styles of play
The million dollar question is still this:
Will SC2 reach what SCBW has achieved or maybe even surpass it?
Only time will tell
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Canada19 Posts
On September 01 2010 13:52 cive wrote:
This is where I can pull out my calculator and tell someone exactly how many reapers you are going to have after the patch 1.1 if you want to maintain the timing, and without feeling like a total geek(not denying, just less conscious LOL.)
could you actually show me where to find that calculation?
as for OP, just reaper them! goes through def wall so easily
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Be careful posting if you are bronze cos people here consider a platinum player an upper noob level.
I understand what you are saying, it is normal to see certain things after playing regular some time, or to notice changes and overall players skill or habits.
My overall advice - develop aggressive style more than anything. I would rather kill myself than build a static defense like photon canon.
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On September 01 2010 15:18 ZerOsAndOnEs wrote:
Please don't ban me but just to clarify, why were so many people warned in this thread?
Sorry for my ignorance... I haven't made many posts (new at TL.net) and would like to get a bearing on un-acceptable replies. I would say most of the warned people gave some helpful advise.
Because the OP was just giving some detailed observations of the evolution of gameplay in the bronze league in an intelligent manner, and many of the immediate responses was one of three things:
1. Short 1-2 liners, being a jerk to him about being in the bronze league.
2. Trying to give him advice in a condescending tone about how to get out of his bronze league.
3. Obviously did not read the OP in its entirety and only read that he was in bronze league.
And often a combination of the three. Being in diamond is not a requisite to posting on TL, and dismissing someone's well written post (not asking for advice) because he is in bronze is really annoying to read.
EDIT: Beaten, twice =(
And @swymaboi, I agree completely. I'm glad to see the mods take some action to reduce toxic posts.
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Thanks for explaining, proper etiquette. It threw me off a bit seeing good replies. I know one thing not to do and am glad to be a part of a community that takes charge.
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EPT
