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On July 20 2011 21:15 Legio wrote:
Last nights episode was really lacking InControl. I was listening to it at the gym, and I literally fell asleep on the treadmill (which is not an easy thing to do mind you) when I had to sit thru these four corporate guys mumbling their way thru top 5 lists of their favorite songs, and reliving their Broodwar glory days.
Seriously, there was no SC2 content last night. Artosis doesn't play the game, JP is a caster, Tyler hasn't won a game in months and is living his SC2 life thru his teammates (how many times did he bring up his manlove for Huk, Haypro, Jinro last night) and Leah, who recently took a game off Total Biscuit.
Time to bring on some guests with actual SC2 credentials. This is not a sales pitch meeting, lets hear a bit about the game.
Lol, a bit harsh, but yeah, it is the best shows when you have people like Naniwa on.
Still, thx a bunch for getting the .mp3 out quickly!
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SOTG has been missing something the last two episodes. Some friends and I have talked about what that might be. I keep coming back to Geoff. I didn't always agree with his opinion, but you could count on him having an opinion on everything. He was knowledgeable, thoughtful and for the most part put together solid arguments on whatever the topic was.
Near the end of it's EG fueled run (Geoff as regular, Idra on regularly) SOTG was the show that I could tune into on a weekly basis and learn what high level professional players thought about how StarCraft 2 strategy was developing and evolving. Maybe I watched it for completely different reasons than most people, but I don't see how Leah fits into that role. She's well spoken, asks the questions of the guests you'd expect from someone with some media experience, but she knows next to nothing about the game.
Not that Reddit or r/sc is a perfect cross section of the StarCraft 2 community as a whole, but it was not uncommon for SOTG to have a couple popular reddit threads per episode. Last night? Absolutely none.
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they iddnt know who nerchio is ? _ ? _ ? <_<
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8751 Posts
On July 20 2011 17:27 AndAgain wrote:
Tyler's position of 4 gate didn't make much sense. Sure, a defensive 4 gate beats an offensive 4 gate. But then an early tech build beats a defensive 4 gate. Meanwhile, an offensive 4 gate beats an early tech. Where does the idea that 4 gate isn't that good fits in?
How does this disagree with my position on 4gate? The idea that 4gate isn't that good fits in because people think 4gate is some godly build that is good against everything. That's what I argue against. When the 4gate concern in PvP began, people thought that offensively 4gating was the only possible build. They didn't realize that you could be a little more greedy on tech and probes and still hold and get a free advantage. They continue to see offensive 4gate killing pros even when the pros aren't teching hard or making a lot of probes so I have to continue pointing out that those pros are simply playing worse than their opponents. Builds and strats can be judged comparatively only when executed with equal skill. So very often when I see offensive 4gate win nowadays, I have to say that it's because the 4gater played better, not because his build is better. I said pretty clearly exactly what you've just posted so I'm not sure how you think it's new information that goes against my position on 4gate.
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I disagree with some of the comments here saying they didn't really like the last show. I loved it! Nice topics going into the top 5, but perhaps it was a bit too rigid. It's most interesting hearing people explain their choices rather than having them listed as a top 5 outright. Stories are more interesting.
I loved the discussion with Tyler regarding his performance lately, although it didn't really divulge much. I wonder if Team Liquid has considered implementing 'forced' practice minimums, or some 'forced' joined practice time. Perhaps that would do some good, or maybe not.
On July 20 2011 22:37 TheBJ wrote:
they iddnt know who nerchio is ? _ ? _ ? <_<
Yes they did, they said that he and Mondragon were the most known players on the team.
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The problem is that Geoff filled in in a lot of the conversational gaps. He's articulate, always had a knowledgeable opinion on something (whether you agreed with him is a different matter though), and was funny enough to lift the mood. In short, Geoff was pretty much the glue that held the pillars together in the podcast, or was the segue that JP could count on to open a topic/transition from.
Wasn't the absence of "Cmon JP, ask me what i think...", "Well here's the deal JP.." very obvious in the last 2 episodes? While Geoff talked a lot, he'd always hit the conversational ball to someone else to continue on a topic - that's what kept SotG flowing, so to speak. Now you just get people saying a few things and that's pretty much it, and JP has to scramble to keep it moving which turns into an interview, rather than a conversation.
Not to mention you now have guests/semi-permanent pillars who don't offer a whole lot to the conversation simply because they don't know enough about it - but that's a different matter altogether.
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"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability.
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability.
People have said this about marines, marauders and roaches at multiple times during the life of SC2.
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On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
JP is terran. He's got a very big soapbox to cry imba from 
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On July 20 2011 23:49 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
JP is terran. He's got a very big soapbox to cry imba from
Nah, he's actually random
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On July 20 2011 21:15 Legio wrote:
Last nights episode was really lacking InControl. I was listening to it at the gym, and I literally fell asleep on the treadmill (which is not an easy thing to do mind you) when I had to sit thru these four corporate guys mumbling their way thru top 5 lists of their favorite songs, and reliving their Broodwar glory days.
Seriously, there was no SC2 content last night. Artosis doesn't play the game, JP is a caster, Tyler hasn't won a game in months and is living his SC2 life thru his teammates (how many times did he bring up his manlove for Huk, Haypro, Jinro last night) and Leah, who recently took a game off Total Biscuit.
Time to bring on some guests with actual SC2 credentials. This is not a sales pitch meeting, lets hear a bit about the game.
I'm with this guy. There was nothing to it, nothing entertaining.
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Wow, I'm really surprised at the hate that seems to be going on in this thread after last nights show. I honestly thought it was probably one of the best shows overall. They dealt with drama in a professional way thanks to artosis(the sixjax major drama), and they did a good job explaining their positions on game balance/player skill with actual examples and facts to back it up. Sometimes they hosts just throw a statement out their without explanation, but last night it was really good.
I like incontrol, but realistically its best for both sides that he left. For himself, he can practice more, and stick more with the eg centered over on onemoregame.tv. Over there he can focus more on talking about the game and strategy with other eg members, and that's where incontrol shines. Its also best for these guys because towards the end it started getting really tense between him and tyler. No, i'm not saying they hated eachother, but its clear that there was drama, and since he left they went back to focusing more on tournaments and game play.
So all in all, great show guys. Artosis is a good replacement for geoff. Not a direct replacement obviously, but a good one. And for all the trolls who dont have a long enough attention span to listen to guys not yell at each other to go fuck themselves, then this show is probably not for you, so gtfo of the chat that you all ruin every single episode. But don't worry, I hear destiny streams daily.
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On July 20 2011 23:45 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability. People have said this about marines, marauders and roaches at multiple times during the life of SC2.
Perhaps, but I'd hardly call any of those units -stable-. There are multiple techs from all races that shuts down marines -hard- and requires additional units from T to compensate for. Maurauders can't shoot up (which is why hellion/maurauder is risky) and suck against charge zealots. And we've all seen the consequences of mass roach play when 200/200 armies collide, or when large numbers of Immortals or void rays start getting fielded. There's a good response to all of those units that facilitates a response from the other player.
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On July 21 2011 00:19 Dragar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 23:45 ZeromuS wrote:On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability. People have said this about marines, marauders and roaches at multiple times during the life of SC2. Perhaps, but I'd hardly call any of those units -stable-. There are multiple techs from all races that shuts down marines -hard- and requires additional units from T to compensate for. Maurauders can't shoot up (which is why hellion/maurauder is risky) and suck against charge zealots. And we've all seen the consequences of mass roach play when 200/200 armies collide, or when large numbers of Immortals or void rays start getting fielded. There's a good response to all of those units that facilitates a response from the other player.
And you don't find that marauders, hydras, infestors or lings deal with stalkers well enough?
I can see artosis' point about stalkers in pvz but blink and warpgates are what makes those builds viable not the +2 damage to light.
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On July 20 2011 22:50 adeptz wrote:
The problem is that Geoff filled in in a lot of the conversational gaps. He's articulate, always had a knowledgeable opinion on something (whether you agreed with him is a different matter though), and was funny enough to lift the mood. In short, Geoff was pretty much the glue that held the pillars together in the podcast, or was the segue that JP could count on to open a topic/transition from.
Wasn't the absence of "Cmon JP, ask me what i think...", "Well here's the deal JP.." very obvious in the last 2 episodes? While Geoff talked a lot, he'd always hit the conversational ball to someone else to continue on a topic - that's what kept SotG flowing, so to speak. Now you just get people saying a few things and that's pretty much it, and JP has to scramble to keep it moving which turns into an interview, rather than a conversation.
Not to mention you now have guests/semi-permanent pillars who don't offer a whole lot to the conversation simply because they don't know enough about it - but that's a different matter altogether.
i really agree with that. those 2 episodes werent really as good as before. Incontrol was really a driving force, who makes intressting discussion happen.
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On July 21 2011 00:38 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 00:19 Dragar wrote:On July 20 2011 23:45 ZeromuS wrote:On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability. People have said this about marines, marauders and roaches at multiple times during the life of SC2. Perhaps, but I'd hardly call any of those units -stable-. There are multiple techs from all races that shuts down marines -hard- and requires additional units from T to compensate for. Maurauders can't shoot up (which is why hellion/maurauder is risky) and suck against charge zealots. And we've all seen the consequences of mass roach play when 200/200 armies collide, or when large numbers of Immortals or void rays start getting fielded. There's a good response to all of those units that facilitates a response from the other player. And you don't find that marauders, hydras, infestors or lings deal with stalkers well enough? I can see artosis' point about stalkers in pvz but blink and warpgates are what makes those builds viable not the +2 damage to light.
Actualy, Hydra and ling don't deal with stalker nearly as good as they should. The only case that hydraling beat mass stalker is in an open field when there's no terrain to abuse blink. And you can abuse how fast your army is by doing almost suiciding move, because blink is 10s only anyway.
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On July 21 2011 00:59 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 00:38 flodeskum wrote:On July 21 2011 00:19 Dragar wrote:On July 20 2011 23:45 ZeromuS wrote:On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability. People have said this about marines, marauders and roaches at multiple times during the life of SC2. Perhaps, but I'd hardly call any of those units -stable-. There are multiple techs from all races that shuts down marines -hard- and requires additional units from T to compensate for. Maurauders can't shoot up (which is why hellion/maurauder is risky) and suck against charge zealots. And we've all seen the consequences of mass roach play when 200/200 armies collide, or when large numbers of Immortals or void rays start getting fielded. There's a good response to all of those units that facilitates a response from the other player. And you don't find that marauders, hydras, infestors or lings deal with stalkers well enough? I can see artosis' point about stalkers in pvz but blink and warpgates are what makes those builds viable not the +2 damage to light. Actualy, Hydra and ling don't deal with stalker nearly as good as they should. The only case that hydraling beat mass stalker is in an open field when there's no terrain to abuse blink. And you can abuse how fast your army is by doing almost suiciding move, because blink is 10s only anyway.
True, but again. This is due to blink, not the damage output.
edit: if you saw tester vs losira on dual sight today you might see my point. That same timing, without blink and losira held with 3 bases and 60+ drones even after he lost a queen early on and was floating around 1500 minerals... and this was on hatch tech, only slow roaches and speedlings.
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On July 21 2011 00:38 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 00:19 Dragar wrote:On July 20 2011 23:45 ZeromuS wrote:On July 20 2011 22:50 RogerChillingworth wrote:
"TvZ is impossible to play at all levels" - JP
What? Lol.
And yeah, this last episode was kind of slow. The one thing I loved was Artosis mentioning the possible [slight] stalker nerf back to 8 (+6) instead of 10 (+4). Maybe it's not the best solution to the problem, but it was nice to hear the problem at least mentioned on a public forum. Most of all from a protoss player.
Blink really fucks with the dynamic of the game--seems more like a Warcraft ability--and no one else can get away with making one unit with so much success, ease of execution, map control, and stability. People have said this about marines, marauders and roaches at multiple times during the life of SC2. Perhaps, but I'd hardly call any of those units -stable-. There are multiple techs from all races that shuts down marines -hard- and requires additional units from T to compensate for. Maurauders can't shoot up (which is why hellion/maurauder is risky) and suck against charge zealots. And we've all seen the consequences of mass roach play when 200/200 armies collide, or when large numbers of Immortals or void rays start getting fielded. There's a good response to all of those units that facilitates a response from the other player. And you don't find that marauders, hydras, infestors or lings deal with stalkers well enough? I can see artosis' point about stalkers in pvz but blink and warpgates are what makes those builds viable not the +2 damage to light.
It's not really about 'well enough' or not, because that's more about balance than anything else. And maurauders certainly do prevent any mass stalker build in PvT.
But the point is that a collosus shuts down marines hard; mutalisks shut down maurauders hard. Hydra/ling can trade favourably with stalkers, on creep or in the open. Generally Protoss chooses the engagements in such situations, so it's more a case that hydra/ling defends blink stalkers well.
I certainly wouldn't want to stay on blink stalkers if I saw my opponent defending with hydra/ling, but it's not like my composition suddenly loses me the game. In fact, given that Protoss often goes to great lengths to force a hydra/ling composition (the point of many air openings), it might even put me in a favourable spot.
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True, but again. This is due to blink, not the damage output.
Absolutely agreed. Blink is an extremely powerful ability in large engagements, and often surprisingly neglected. MC is one of the few I've seen that really exploits the ability to its max.
I think everyone would agree stalkers are not powerful because of their damage. It's also true that reducing their damage versus non-armoured would reduce their power.
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EPT
