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Bashiok Aknowledging Balance Issues - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
August 17 2010 16:15 GMT
#41
I love when Terran players get 5 reapers and think they're microing.

Or when they use two vikings as a follow-up to "micro" and kill off stray overlords

Or when they drop tank/thor on your cliff and "micro" it.

Or when they use banshee "micro" to carefully snipe two shot drones with little resistance.

User was warned for this post
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Go0g3n
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Russian Federation410 Posts
August 17 2010 16:20 GMT
#42
On August 18 2010 01:11 JudoChopper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote:
They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .


Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.


I've played a beta build (during a Moscow gaming expo thing) that had Lurkers in it. It really did overlap. No1 in their mind would get roaches @ tier 1 over hydras, with the option to make them Lurks later on, and that was when roaches were super imba @ 1 food.
Kletus
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada580 Posts
August 17 2010 16:22 GMT
#43
On August 18 2010 01:15 Amber[LighT] wrote:
I love when Terran players get 5 reapers and think they're microing.

Or when they use two vikings as a follow-up to "micro" and kill off stray overlords

Or when they drop tank/thor on your cliff and "micro" it.

Or when they use banshee "micro" to carefully snipe two shot drones with little resistance.


Yeah, I love it when zerg players macro all game, attack move, and then "micro" with fungal growth.
Your resistance only serves to make my carapace harder.
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
August 17 2010 16:23 GMT
#44
On August 18 2010 01:11 JudoChopper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote:
They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .


Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.


They made protoss an appealing and fun race to play . Zerg had issues of diversity in strategy which made then an unappealing race with the sole caster they have the infestor and units with uninteresting new mechanics . In the multiplayer of the game all races should be equally developed and 1 race should not suffer so that the race which expansion is coming out would be better ...
baconbits
Profile Joined April 2010
United States419 Posts
August 17 2010 16:24 GMT
#45
On August 18 2010 01:20 Go0g3n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 01:11 JudoChopper wrote:
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote:
They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .


Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.


I've played a beta build (during a Moscow gaming expo thing) that had Lurkers in it. It really did overlap. No1 in their mind would get roaches @ tier 1 over hydras, with the option to make them Lurks later on, and that was when roaches were super imba @ 1 food.



sc2 lurkers were a t3 unit, with hydra at 2 according to the old beta tech trees
iNty.sCream
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany195 Posts
August 17 2010 16:27 GMT
#46
swap hydras with roaches in the tree, make a t2 upgrade for lurkermorph, nerf hydras and make it 1 food cause lack of swarming, buff roach to like 2 armor and fine.
Bisu best hairspray = win
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
August 17 2010 16:29 GMT
#47
Again with the quoting "korean top players are zerg". As Artosis and others have pointed out. Those players are some of the best players from BW and WC3. They are allready more skilled at RTS games than others. Their performance is not based on them being zerg.
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 16:30:51
August 17 2010 16:29 GMT
#48
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
Zerg is completely playable for 99%


Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.

Awww ... you want one of these:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Why didnt you tell us. /sarcasm off

May I remind you of something a very smart american president once said:
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
John F. Kennedy

Accept it as a challenge to play Zerg and feel great if it works out. Playing Terran isnt full easy mode either, especially at low levels, because their macro requires a lot more attention than that of the Zerg.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
Caelestis
Profile Joined August 2010
United States58 Posts
August 17 2010 16:31 GMT
#49
On August 18 2010 00:19 Phayze wrote:
Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.


As much as we would like to think that the pro-gaming scene is the number one priority to Blizzard, keep in mind that Activision Blizzard is a publicly traded company and its responsibility is to sell the damn game to keep its employees employed.

They will continue to use the ladder system and make balance adjustments that favor their customer base, which are primarily low level players. I remember when people flamed about auto-mining and multicommand, which used to be hacks in SC1. The game will be tweaked to the masses, whether higher level players like it or not, because that's the only way they are going to sell the game unless you front the money for noobs and trolls.

TvZ is imbalanced at a low level right now. Whether oGs or prime have race advantages is a lesser concern.
ironchef
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Canada1350 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 16:34:29
August 17 2010 16:33 GMT
#50
Not going to comment on balance,but zerg being underrepresented makes total sense to me.
Theyre the most different race mechanic wise, and werent playable in single player. I can see tons of new, non hardcore players just being confused and want to stick with something close to what they learned in tutorials/campaign. Even if the game is 100% balanced, I'd expect zerg to be less represented from the casual factor alone.

Anyway, not doubting their sincerity, but this is a standard blizzard response and doesnt really tell us anything new. You can pretty much assume this stance on everything going forward. The more rare/notable cases are when they go "nope, you guys are wrong, not gonna fix/look at it!"
“Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also.” - Marcus Aurelius
brucebruce
Profile Joined May 2010
United States22 Posts
August 17 2010 16:37 GMT
#51
Zerg is just way harder to play than terran. Fixing zerg seems like it would make it way too easy to make them OP at the top play... but only balanced to most of us. I don't see blizzard making any huge changes to them. Maybe adding the contaminate ability to zerglings.
Squirrel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1102 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 16:46:18
August 17 2010 16:44 GMT
#52
On August 18 2010 01:29 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote:
Zerg is completely playable for 99%


Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.

Awww ... you want one of these:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Why didnt you tell us. /sarcasm off

May I remind you of something a very smart american president once said:
Show nested quote +
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
John F. Kennedy

Accept it as a challenge to play Zerg and feel great if it works out. Playing Terran isnt full easy mode either, especially at low levels, because their macro requires a lot more attention than that of the Zerg.


I for one don't want an "I WIN!" button, but equal footing.

Not that I think Zerg is ZOMGWTF harder than Terran(I find terran harder to play, personally), but regardless I'd rather not have to work harder to get the same result.

On August 18 2010 01:37 brucebruce wrote:
Maybe adding the contaminate ability to zerglings.



Somehow that made me think of Zerglings contaminating Pylons, which for some reason shut down the power of it.

That said, Contaminate shutting down pylons would be hilarious.
J7S
Profile Joined March 2009
Brazil179 Posts
August 17 2010 16:49 GMT
#53
I feel Blizzard is right. They achieved a state in Beta then released the game. They have to let the game and the players evolve for a while, collect data, feedback, and make a precise change that really will leave the game better.

You can't be hasty in huge projects like this. For example, people are complaining a lot against terran mech. And some Zerg actually came up with a play - mass corruptors/broodlords - that could counter it pretty well. Including thor cliff drops, lot of thanks, lot of vikings.

Give it time, work a lot, then change.
"Mein Führer, I can walk!" - Dr. Strangelove
Yuma
Profile Joined May 2009
United States51 Posts
August 17 2010 16:52 GMT
#54
FINALY some reason on the forums so much mud has been thrown around in both sides of the debate that no one stops to look at the bigger picture and i know almost all of you played SC & BW and you know that game was not perfectly balanced on release!
Death is on your left side about an arms distance behind you.-Don Juan
Juaks
Profile Joined June 2010
United States384 Posts
August 17 2010 17:07 GMT
#55
So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.


They had stated this before and honestly I like this approach.

That said. There are balance changes coming


No surprises here. They allways do.
crappen
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway1546 Posts
August 17 2010 17:11 GMT
#56
On August 18 2010 00:45 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 00:36 jambam wrote:
On August 18 2010 00:23 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
On August 18 2010 00:13 Jermstuddog wrote:

Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.


its absolutely impossible these days to keep the QQ cursaders out. nice that you tried but you cant do it. they will instaspam evry single thread that is in ANY way related to zerg,balance,statistics,terran,a pro Z player etc.

id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.





i like blizzards approach. cause really, the issues are nowhere as bad as the QQcrusaders calim. the game is out for what? 3-4 weeks now? and kneejerk patches are the last thing we need.

i just hope blizzard realises that their horrible maps are the root of many problems and finally make some good BIG maps and edit out the problematic things in the current ones..


Im sorry, Im realatively new to forums, but is this a troll?


As i Zerg player i was glad to hear that blizzard was aware of the concerns and that they wouldn't release anything without testing. I think that's all anyone wanted to hear. The silence from Blizz was the worst part.




im random. i know the issues of zerg. but im not insanely biased like the vast majority of complainers. most problems come down to shitty maps and not zerg itself.



I really agree with this, the maps play a huge role in this. I believe we should first try with new maps. I hate kulas ravine kind of map as zerg, it's just no.

STS17
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1817 Posts
August 17 2010 17:19 GMT
#57
Good job Blizzard, not responding to complaints with knee-jerk decisions is the right way to be looking at this. I don't deny that the game has some issues but letting them "pan out" for a few weeks or maybe even a couple months (assuming they aren't massively obvious issues) is the best way to go about doing this.
Platinum Level Terran - Take my advice from that perspective
AcOrP
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria148 Posts
August 17 2010 17:31 GMT
#58
why so many people blame the lower skill level for zerg being week... Yes in lower division skill level is low... But if you make mistake with zerg you lose the game. And if you are terran even if u do tons of mistakes its still hard for zerg to win the game... Korean zergs are doing fine but korean zergs have insane high skill level and in ladder you don't realy face pros only, you do face alot weaker oponents that are basicly free wins for the pro korean zergs...
eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
August 17 2010 17:35 GMT
#59
at least blue fixed me sometimes not being able to access offline play from the splash screen! :D
Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
Oleksandr
Profile Joined July 2010
United States227 Posts
August 17 2010 17:40 GMT
#60
On August 18 2010 00:14 Cedstick wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote:
Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.

On lower level the Macro mechanics make it way harder.
[strike]On high levels the little imbalances begin to show up and make it way harder.[/strike]



Oh, so it's like Terran until C- in Brood War?

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over it? People still suck at this game, as seriously as they may take themselves (IdrA), and there is a lot of mapping-out that will occur as the game progresses.

Speak for yourself, if you suck.

User was warned for this post
Idra: good sir, you appear to be somewhat lacking in intelligence. please refrain from posting until this is remedied, since it renders your opinions slightly less than correct and has a tendency to irritate more informed forum-goers.
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