A thread was just made, and promptly canceled due to people overreacting with the "woe is me, they'll never fix Zerg" mentality.
For those who don't go to Battlenet, here are some quotes from Bashiok regarding the balance issue.
Bashiok (Hopefully this doesn't read too harsh, it's been a tough Monday. <3 <3 <3)
Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't.
Our intent is also to not apply knee jerk fixes based on the first few weeks as understanding of the game and strategies are still in flux. The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats.
We see a lot of variation between the regions. Making a change for how NA players play may be completely ridiculous for how KR players play, and actually mess up a balance there. For instance 10 of their top 20 players are zerg. So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.
That said. There are balance changes coming. What everyone was seeing in beta with tons of quick balance changes are because it was in beta and we feel we can get away with throwing out a lot of 'we think this may help' type fixes. With a live environment we're not going to throw stuff out there unless we're pretty sure. We've played. We've looked at data. We've looked at each region. And then we act. Which isn't to say we may not be wrong from time to time, but it's a more measured approach than beta players may be used to or expecting.
Some Guy Bashiok, is it possible that you could tell us if there are any improvements coming for zerg? I know things vary from region to region, but I think a lot of zerg players are generally frustrated from every region. I mean, even players like Check and Cool, very strong korean zergs, are beginning to give up on the swarm.
I'm not demanding specifics or anything like that. Just looking for a glimmer of hope that things will get better.
People were complaining but blizz responded that koreans were doing much better with zerg.
My intent was to dispel the notion that all players are created equal.
I don't think any one here is looking at 26% zerg and shaking hands and congratulating each other on a perfectly balanced game. Ultimately I don't think who plays what is very logical to point at and say what's OP or not, but people do it, and so I react in-kind when possible to tell them to politely take their seat.
There you have it. Blizzard is working on stuff, but nothing is solid enough that they want to mention it publicly.
26% of their player base picking Zerg is an issue to them. This doesn't mean Zerg is UP, but it does mean Zerg is less appealing, and it is in Blizzards best interest to make all races equally fun to play (balance is part of that).
Mentioning that Korea has quite a few top Zerg means that in its current state, Zerg is completely playable for 99% of SC2 players without any major problems, so this is not an issue that demands immediate fixes. All the more reason to take it slow and make the RIGHT change rather than a quick one.
I am writing this simply to let people know that Blizzard is looking at balance one way or another, please don't muck it up by crying that they're not fixing everything today.
You may have missed this one about the time taken before fixing anything:
(Hopefully this doesn't read too harsh, it's been a tough Monday. <3 <3 <3)
Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't.
Our intent is also to not apply knee jerk fixes based on the first few weeks as understanding of the game and strategies are still in flux. The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats.
We see a lot of variation between the regions. Making a change for how NA players play may be completely ridiculous for how KR players play, and actually mess up a balance there. For instance 10 of their top 20 players are zerg. So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.
That said. There are balance changes coming. What everyone was seeing in beta with tons of quick balance changes are because it was in beta and we feel we can get away with throwing out a lot of 'we think this may help' type fixes. With a live environment we're not going to throw stuff out there unless we're pretty sure. We've played. We've looked at data. We've looked at each region. And then we act. Which isn't to say we may not be wrong from time to time, but it's a more measured approach than beta players may be used to or expecting.
On August 18 2010 00:10 SpiDaH wrote: Well, the game has only been out for a bunch of weeks now, Rome, or should I say broodwar, was not built in a day.
Rome actually was though, real talk.
On a more serious note I believe that all balance changes that are made to the game will be WELL thought out and WELL tested. I am content playing the game as of now, and I know that when balance patches come out there will still be crying, but all we can do is wait and see what happens.
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote: Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.
On lower level the Macro mechanics make it way harder. [strike]On high levels the little imbalances begin to show up and make it way harder.[/strike]
Oh, so it's like Terran until C- in Brood War?
Seriously, how many times do we have to go over it? People still suck at this game, as seriously as they may take themselves (IdrA), and there is a lot of mapping-out that will occur as the game progresses.
He just said "they were aware of the concerns" not that they "were aware of the problem". He's just acknowledging that a lot of Zerg are complaining ^^
I do think Blizzard will patch eventually, they're just not rushing to conclusions.
What they should do is buff zerg to all hell to get people to start playing them...then roll back the buffs and hopefully people adapt.
I don't feel like I'm good enough to say if they are underpowered, but I do admit getting wins with Terran or Protoss is 2x easier leaving my 2x more energy to play more.
Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
"Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.
Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
ZERG TAKES TOO MUCH SKILL BOOHOO has anyone ever tried to play terran in sc1? absolutely redonkulous but anyways blizz has it bad, as all those wow guys on the forums expect something big with every patch. like a balance change every week, and the retarded thing is most of them arent even gold. they don't even play 1v1 they just jumped on the bandwagon/hatewagon which seems to be a pretty common theme these days.
Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.
its absolutely impossible these days to keep the QQ cursaders out. nice that you tried but you cant do it. they will instaspam evry single thread that is in ANY way related to zerg,balance,statistics,terran,a pro Z player etc.
id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.
i like blizzards approach. cause really, the issues are nowhere as bad as the QQcrusaders calim. the game is out for what? 3-4 weeks now? and kneejerk patches are the last thing we need.
i just hope blizzard realises that their horrible maps are the root of many problems and finally make some good BIG maps and edit out the problematic things in the current ones..
On August 18 2010 00:22 Integra wrote: Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.
Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
Adding to this is there are alot of Zerg that are CHOOSING to sit on early game tech, compounding their own problems by staying with their weakest tech.
On August 18 2010 00:22 Integra wrote: Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.
Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
Adding to this is there are alot of Zerg that are CHOOSING to sit on early game tech, compounding their own problems by staying with their weakest tech.
Yeah we are CHOOSING to not upgrade to lair while we make our queen(s).. The audacity!
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote: "Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
3 races are extremely easier to balance than 4 races.
Personally, I feel like the fact that Zerg are played less is not because they're less fun to play, but because they are widely considered the weakest race atm.
So I think if Blizzard tries to make Zerg just "more fun" to play and not make them simply "better", it could end up being a pretty useless change.... But I guess they are aware of that. ^^'
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote: "Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
3 races are extremely easier to balance than 4 races.
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote: "Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
3 races are extremely easier to balance than 4 races.
On August 18 2010 00:22 Integra wrote: Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.
Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
Adding to this is there are alot of Zerg that are CHOOSING to sit on early game tech, compounding their own problems by staying with their weakest tech.
They aren't choosing anything. And low tech is not a problem either, the problem is that Zerg cannot know what Terran is up to. IF Zerg somehow in early game actually could find out that Terran was cliff dropping, banshee rushing or just massing vikings they would tech accordingly.
But since they don't know they are staying with lower tech but more units since that way they will survive if the Terran goes for tank/marines/medics rushes which is the most common tactic. Doing this at least makes the Zerg survive against the other tactics mentioned above but with heavy losses to their drone count (which cannot be prevented) and they will prolly lose the middle or late game unless the Terran makes a mistake. IF they do not go low tech units early and if the Terran goes for marines/tanks/medics they will die guaranteed.
As a Terran player I admitt, allot of my wins against Zerg are due to flipcoin, I've gone barrack, tank, 2 starports and the Zerg thougth I was going mass vikings and started early lair, only to be countered by my scan and I simply add reactor and one more barrack and start making marine/medic rush instead. Zerg early game are in a very tough spot right now.
Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.
its absolutely impossible these days to keep the QQ cursaders out. nice that you tried but you cant do it. they will instaspam evry single thread that is in ANY way related to zerg,balance,statistics,terran,a pro Z player etc.
id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.
i like blizzards approach. cause really, the issues are nowhere as bad as the QQcrusaders calim. the game is out for what? 3-4 weeks now? and kneejerk patches are the last thing we need.
i just hope blizzard realises that their horrible maps are the root of many problems and finally make some good BIG maps and edit out the problematic things in the current ones..
Im sorry, Im realatively new to forums, but is this a troll?
As i Zerg player i was glad to hear that blizzard was aware of the concerns and that they wouldn't release anything without testing. I think that's all anyone wanted to hear. The silence from Blizz was the worst part.
I m underwhelmed by the response. I mean do they do anything but look at the ladder ? It doesnt say anything that asia has alot of zerg on top of the ladder. They should look at the tournaments, even in Korea Zerg isnt doing very well anymore.
Europe ESL Pro Season: 1Zerg! Its kinda frustrating to see ppl like machine and Dimaga switch races and Blizzard doesnt seem to care enough to patch immediately. What is the difference between beta and now? Really i dont see it. There were tournaments and there are tournaments now. Bnet 2.0 still looks like Beta, no chatroom or social interaction possible. The custom funmap system is a complete mess.
Personally i was expecting a release patch or at least now a few week after release a big juicy patch bringing us some content and further small balance fixes.
Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.
its absolutely impossible these days to keep the QQ cursaders out. nice that you tried but you cant do it. they will instaspam evry single thread that is in ANY way related to zerg,balance,statistics,terran,a pro Z player etc.
id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.
i like blizzards approach. cause really, the issues are nowhere as bad as the QQcrusaders calim. the game is out for what? 3-4 weeks now? and kneejerk patches are the last thing we need.
i just hope blizzard realises that their horrible maps are the root of many problems and finally make some good BIG maps and edit out the problematic things in the current ones..
Im sorry, Im realatively new to forums, but is this a troll?
As i Zerg player i was glad to hear that blizzard was aware of the concerns and that they wouldn't release anything without testing. I think that's all anyone wanted to hear. The silence from Blizz was the worst part.
what is your problem with my post? that i complain about the hundreds of kids that destroy the sc2 general forum with their QQ spam?
im random. i know the issues of zerg. but im not insanely biased like the vast majority of complainers. most problems come down to shitty maps and not zerg itself.
some people have valid balance thoughts. but most just keep losing cause they play bad and then go "oh ya, idra said Z is UP so thats why i lost! fast to the forums!"
and im glad that blizzard somewhat ignores those kids. as much as i love to hate blizz for their recent actions , with balance i trust em way way way more then almost anyone else. they have the data, they actually want BALANCE and not "my race needs to do best!"
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote: "Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again . They already made the game super expensive by spliting it in to 3 parts and if the reason they left the zerg race unfinished ( compared to the other 2 races in wings of liberty ) is that they want people to buy their expansion is unforgivable .
I'm happy with the way Blizzard is taking things. Balance is extremely hard is such a complex game. I hope they don't look too deeply into ladder statistics though. Balance is based on the top players, because no matter how imbalanced the game is, a better player will beat a worse player. It's only when players play at an extreme level where imbalances tend to show up.
On August 18 2010 00:22 Integra wrote: Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.
Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
Adding to this is there are alot of Zerg that are CHOOSING to sit on early game tech, compounding their own problems by staying with their weakest tech.
have u ever played even a single game as zerg to make a bull shit and completely stupid and untrue comment like that?
zerg players dont "choose" to stay on early game tech since we are piratically forced to go mid game tech for like mutas or hydras.
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote: They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .
Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote: They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .
Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.
I've played a beta build (during a Moscow gaming expo thing) that had Lurkers in it. It really did overlap. No1 in their mind would get roaches @ tier 1 over hydras, with the option to make them Lurks later on, and that was when roaches were super imba @ 1 food.
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote: They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .
Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.
They made protoss an appealing and fun race to play . Zerg had issues of diversity in strategy which made then an unappealing race with the sole caster they have the infestor and units with uninteresting new mechanics . In the multiplayer of the game all races should be equally developed and 1 race should not suffer so that the race which expansion is coming out would be better ...
On August 18 2010 00:49 raga4ka wrote: They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again .
Following this logic shouldn't Protoss be weak so they can "fix" them with the Protoss expansion? i'm not buying this idea, they just spent too much time/resources on Terran and less on the others Zerg was last and had the least time.
I've played a beta build (during a Moscow gaming expo thing) that had Lurkers in it. It really did overlap. No1 in their mind would get roaches @ tier 1 over hydras, with the option to make them Lurks later on, and that was when roaches were super imba @ 1 food.
sc2 lurkers were a t3 unit, with hydra at 2 according to the old beta tech trees
swap hydras with roaches in the tree, make a t2 upgrade for lurkermorph, nerf hydras and make it 1 food cause lack of swarming, buff roach to like 2 armor and fine.
Again with the quoting "korean top players are zerg". As Artosis and others have pointed out. Those players are some of the best players from BW and WC3. They are allready more skilled at RTS games than others. Their performance is not based on them being zerg.
May I remind you of something a very smart american president once said:
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. John F. Kennedy
Accept it as a challenge to play Zerg and feel great if it works out. Playing Terran isnt full easy mode either, especially at low levels, because their macro requires a lot more attention than that of the Zerg.
On August 18 2010 00:19 Phayze wrote: Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
As much as we would like to think that the pro-gaming scene is the number one priority to Blizzard, keep in mind that Activision Blizzard is a publicly traded company and its responsibility is to sell the damn game to keep its employees employed.
They will continue to use the ladder system and make balance adjustments that favor their customer base, which are primarily low level players. I remember when people flamed about auto-mining and multicommand, which used to be hacks in SC1. The game will be tweaked to the masses, whether higher level players like it or not, because that's the only way they are going to sell the game unless you front the money for noobs and trolls.
TvZ is imbalanced at a low level right now. Whether oGs or prime have race advantages is a lesser concern.
Not going to comment on balance,but zerg being underrepresented makes total sense to me. Theyre the most different race mechanic wise, and werent playable in single player. I can see tons of new, non hardcore players just being confused and want to stick with something close to what they learned in tutorials/campaign. Even if the game is 100% balanced, I'd expect zerg to be less represented from the casual factor alone.
Anyway, not doubting their sincerity, but this is a standard blizzard response and doesnt really tell us anything new. You can pretty much assume this stance on everything going forward. The more rare/notable cases are when they go "nope, you guys are wrong, not gonna fix/look at it!"
Zerg is just way harder to play than terran. Fixing zerg seems like it would make it way too easy to make them OP at the top play... but only balanced to most of us. I don't see blizzard making any huge changes to them. Maybe adding the contaminate ability to zerglings.
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. John F. Kennedy
Accept it as a challenge to play Zerg and feel great if it works out. Playing Terran isnt full easy mode either, especially at low levels, because their macro requires a lot more attention than that of the Zerg.
I for one don't want an "I WIN!" button, but equal footing.
Not that I think Zerg is ZOMGWTF harder than Terran(I find terran harder to play, personally), but regardless I'd rather not have to work harder to get the same result.
On August 18 2010 01:37 brucebruce wrote: Maybe adding the contaminate ability to zerglings.
Somehow that made me think of Zerglings contaminating Pylons, which for some reason shut down the power of it.
That said, Contaminate shutting down pylons would be hilarious.
I feel Blizzard is right. They achieved a state in Beta then released the game. They have to let the game and the players evolve for a while, collect data, feedback, and make a precise change that really will leave the game better.
You can't be hasty in huge projects like this. For example, people are complaining a lot against terran mech. And some Zerg actually came up with a play - mass corruptors/broodlords - that could counter it pretty well. Including thor cliff drops, lot of thanks, lot of vikings.
FINALY some reason on the forums so much mud has been thrown around in both sides of the debate that no one stops to look at the bigger picture and i know almost all of you played SC & BW and you know that game was not perfectly balanced on release!
Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.
its absolutely impossible these days to keep the QQ cursaders out. nice that you tried but you cant do it. they will instaspam evry single thread that is in ANY way related to zerg,balance,statistics,terran,a pro Z player etc.
id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.
i like blizzards approach. cause really, the issues are nowhere as bad as the QQcrusaders calim. the game is out for what? 3-4 weeks now? and kneejerk patches are the last thing we need.
i just hope blizzard realises that their horrible maps are the root of many problems and finally make some good BIG maps and edit out the problematic things in the current ones..
Im sorry, Im realatively new to forums, but is this a troll?
As i Zerg player i was glad to hear that blizzard was aware of the concerns and that they wouldn't release anything without testing. I think that's all anyone wanted to hear. The silence from Blizz was the worst part.
im random. i know the issues of zerg. but im not insanely biased like the vast majority of complainers. most problems come down to shitty maps and not zerg itself.
I really agree with this, the maps play a huge role in this. I believe we should first try with new maps. I hate kulas ravine kind of map as zerg, it's just no.
Good job Blizzard, not responding to complaints with knee-jerk decisions is the right way to be looking at this. I don't deny that the game has some issues but letting them "pan out" for a few weeks or maybe even a couple months (assuming they aren't massively obvious issues) is the best way to go about doing this.
why so many people blame the lower skill level for zerg being week... Yes in lower division skill level is low... But if you make mistake with zerg you lose the game. And if you are terran even if u do tons of mistakes its still hard for zerg to win the game... Korean zergs are doing fine but korean zergs have insane high skill level and in ladder you don't realy face pros only, you do face alot weaker oponents that are basicly free wins for the pro korean zergs...
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote: Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.
On lower level the Macro mechanics make it way harder. [strike]On high levels the little imbalances begin to show up and make it way harder.[/strike]
Oh, so it's like Terran until C- in Brood War?
Seriously, how many times do we have to go over it? People still suck at this game, as seriously as they may take themselves (IdrA), and there is a lot of mapping-out that will occur as the game progresses.
On August 18 2010 01:15 Amber[LighT] wrote: I love when Terran players get 5 reapers and think they're microing.
Or when they use two vikings as a follow-up to "micro" and kill off stray overlords
Or when they drop tank/thor on your cliff and "micro" it.
Or when they use banshee "micro" to carefully snipe two shot drones with little resistance.
Don't be dissing TLO now, that guy is nothing but creative for picking easyTerran.
Speaking of which I'm always impressed when people marvel at TLO doing nothing special but standard Terran cheese such as hellion runbys/drops or abusing Zerg's crappy early AA, or even a Thor timing push with SCV's. And even when he gets outplayed (such as the losing 4 thors to madfrog's surround) he manages to come back because he's SO AWESOME! or maybe just because Terran is retardedly good vZ.
I'm not even sure how you can admire a Terran player in general atm. It's just so full of gay, it's pretty amazing.
I think this sounds very good. I play zerg and I really think we need some kind of help against Terran Mech, but I am perfectly content with seeing Blizzard being very careful with any balance changes they do now that the game is in production. I don't want to see Zerg being OP and lots of bandwagon jumpers switching to our team.
On August 18 2010 00:19 Phayze wrote: Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
They already did during beta, the Korean teams agree that Terran is very strong atm (maybe too strong).
On August 18 2010 02:43 shlomo wrote: Don't be dissing TLO now, that guy is nothing but creative for picking easyTerran.
Speaking of which I'm always impressed when people marvel at TLO doing nothing special but standard Terran cheese such as hellion runbys/drops or abusing Zerg's crappy early AA, or even a Thor timing push with SCV's. And even when he gets outplayed (such as the losing 4 thors to madfrog's surround) he manages to come back because he's SO AWESOME! or maybe just because Terran is retardedly good vZ.
I'm not even sure how you can admire a Terran player in general atm. It's just so full of gay, it's pretty amazing.
People would take Zerg complaints a lot more seriously if they weren't more bitter than your mom's homemade Worcestershire sauce. Insult players out of absolutely nowhere! That will certainly get you the recognition your deserve. But then, this is a stepping stone to becoming a real sport. All we need now are steroid allegations and we're set.
On August 18 2010 01:15 Amber[LighT] wrote: I love when Terran players get 5 reapers and think they're microing.
Or when they use two vikings as a follow-up to "micro" and kill off stray overlords
Or when they drop tank/thor on your cliff and "micro" it.
Or when they use banshee "micro" to carefully snipe two shot drones with little resistance.
Don't be dissing TLO now, that guy is nothing but creative for picking easyTerran.
Speaking of which I'm always impressed when people marvel at TLO doing nothing special but standard Terran cheese such as hellion runbys/drops or abusing Zerg's crappy early AA, or even a Thor timing push with SCV's. And even when he gets outplayed (such as the losing 4 thors to madfrog's surround) he manages to come back because he's SO AWESOME! or maybe just because Terran is retardedly good vZ.
I'm not even sure how you can admire a Terran player in general atm. It's just so full of gay, it's pretty amazing.
Well you can consider the Reaper harass micro if the player manages to keep his macro up. When a player plays with a hand full of reapers in my base then lets his money shoot to 500 that isn't really good game play.
As for TLO he has shown alot of variety with Zerg too. TLO has PROVEN over the last 4 months that his will try to innovate. He may use some standard Terran cheese, but he manages to push past it if it fails. Most Terran can't. I'm an Idra fan but lets not bash TLO, he is good an has proven his ability to think outside the box.
I was deciding how to put it for a long time.. and found this conclusion. Playing terran and protoss is easier when you don't have top skill, than is playing zerg. Or to put it even other way, you can achieve victory with more ease as terran or protoss, if your skill (macro/micro/everything) is not top.
Saying that all zerg players are skill-less and complain is really dumb and kind of trolling, imho. I played zerg at beta like 90% of the time, then played random a bit, and after few games of toss/terran after getting used to what they (can) do I found it way easier to win as them. As zerg I either lost to some dumb allin (my bad for not scouting it, maybe..) or lost because the enemy was better (go go games against people in placement games who end in diamond!).
I kind of feel that you need to put more effort into a win as zerg. (it really frustrates me when I see a replay where I lost agaisnt a guy that had 50 less APM than me (ok, that doesn't matter) and had no control groups and just got a big enough army and either a-moved or micro-ed it without macroing) That's why I play them and why I feel very proud when I manage to win
Also at lower levels, if you slip on macro and get your resources piled up, you can just queue units when going to battle and checking 5x less often than you do as zerg. I've seen SO many people not using their (non zerg) macro mechanics in late game it's not even funny.
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote: Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.
On lower level the Macro mechanics make it way harder. [strike]On high levels the little imbalances begin to show up and make it way harder.[/strike]
Oh, so it's like Terran until C- in Brood War?
Seriously, how many times do we have to go over it? People still suck at this game, as seriously as they may take themselves (IdrA), and there is a lot of mapping-out that will occur as the game progresses.
Speak for yourself, if you suck.
idra fanboy is angry : ((
its a fact that even the best of the best pretty much still suck at the game compared to the science like precision we saw in broodwar at the end. they game is damn new and even if the evolution in sc2 happens WAAAYY faster then in sc1/wc3 we still dont know shit.
the gap between the pros and the normal good guy is rather small, you can get to top diamond just by knowing the game and not fucking up etc. all of that will change.
On August 18 2010 00:23 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.
You're totally right. It's not that Terran is OP, it's just that every single person that plays Zerg is bad.
On August 18 2010 02:53 EppE wrote: As for TLO he has shown alot of variety with Zerg too. TLO has PROVEN over the last 4 months that his will try to innovate. He may use some standard Terran cheese, but he manages to push past it if it fails. Most Terran can't. I'm an Idra fan but lets not bash TLO, he is good an has proven his ability to think outside the box.
I have nothing against TLO personally, I think he's a great player. But while players like IdrA, despite all the BM qq, stick to the race that is definitely more challenging to play, others go from random to the flavor of the month because it "gives them more options" (might as well say straight up it's the easiest to play). IdrA is an inspiration for people who struggle with Zerg, TLO is a letdown in general because he goes from very interesting creative random player to particularly good at lolterran abuse.
Doesn't take away from their skills. Just character wise, I'll take IdrA and his BM Zerg over TLO's "lol I can abuse hellions and then make a quick starport and viking harass cuz I play T".
On August 18 2010 00:23 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.
You're totally right. It's not that Terran is OP, it's just that every single person that plays Zerg is bad.
Awesome logic.
Stop making useless posts and feeding malcontent in these threads.
My god this thread is going from one end of the spectrum and back. Went from blizzard talking about the future to how "TLO is a letdown" wtf - Cry all you want 99% of players wont come close to this "letdown".
On topic - I'm glad blizzard is at least listening. Whether they act or not is up to them. As long as they're aware.
On August 18 2010 03:12 JrK wrote: My god this thread is going from one end of the spectrum and back. Went from blizzard talking about the future to how "TLO is a letdown" wtf - Cry all you want 99% of players wont come close to this "letdown".
99% of players of any sport wont come close to any of the pros. Yet some pro's choices or characters are still a letdown to many people. It's really not anything new, don't see why it would be different with SC.
On August 18 2010 01:33 ironchef wrote: Not going to comment on balance,but zerg being underrepresented makes total sense to me. Theyre the most different race mechanic wise, and werent playable in single player. I can see tons of new, non hardcore players just being confused and want to stick with something close to what they learned in tutorials/campaign. Even if the game is 100% balanced, I'd expect zerg to be less represented from the casual factor alone.
First time I've seen someone bring this up and it's a great point. Just counting the number of Zerg players on battle.net doesn't take into account the player who's never seen Starcraft before, played the single player campaign (only) and then decided to start with the ladders.
If they liked the Protoss missions, they might go Toss. But other than that they'll probably stay with the Terran that they mostly understand already.
sometimes when I see threads like this I wonder what people will react with, then I realize in a few pages there will be people that agree and people who disagree and are very vocal.
I've said this before, the game takes some time for stuff to edge out. Games aren't instantaneously balanced, nor do the strategies and controls of a race become instant upon release. Closing the gap between strategies/skills/control is a long way off, so yeah as of now zerg is a bit behind in terms of statistics, but zerg may be able to move ahead with a player who sets the way.
Sort of like Boxer in BW, people didn't like T because they thought it was weak and defensive, then Boxer started innovating and making tricks you still see in modern broodwar. I'm not saying zerg will just be fixed automatically, but someone with strategic plays and reasonable cheese could really change how people play/see the zerg as a competitive race.
On the note of balancing, I would assume zerg needs to have some fixes to be more competitive. Personally I wouldn't just suggest automatic unit buffs, but changes to the macro (queen control, creep) to make it more forgiving, and a more viable race for less experienced players.
As for TLO he has shown alot of variety with Zerg too. TLO has PROVEN over the last 4 months that his will try to innovate. He may use some standard Terran cheese, but he manages to push past it if it fails. Most Terran can't. I'm an Idra fan but lets not bash TLO, he is good an has proven his ability to think outside the box.
i wouldnt say massing queens then winning is a viable strat. the way TLO handles zerg is creative but hardly viable. the builds he does are extremly risky most of the time as zerg to where one mistake will easily loose him the game. but most ppl think all zergs to play standard which is why he gets away with those kinds of builds most of the time. basically his creativity is what helps him win games as a person because know one knows what to expect from a guy like him.
but just because TLO can win on his creativity rly doesnt say much about the match up since even he gets rofl stomped once terran catches on.
also u cant ignore the fact that TLO terran play is significantly stronger then his zerg play despite him being a random player for so long.
I find it worth mentioning at times like this that Blizzard need to be careful about patching. During Beta, right when the HDH was starting, do you remember a certain patch that caused larva to pop out when you cancelled an egg? It wasn't the first time a patch had hit right as a tournament had started, messing up some builds and empowering others - and with GOMTV, MLG and IEM about to start, a patch could really mess with the results.
Of course, from what I understand those tournaments will be played on Blizzard operated local servers, so might just stick with the current patch.
Not going to comment on balance,but zerg being underrepresented makes total sense to me. Theyre the most different race mechanic wise, and werent playable in single player. I can see tons of new, non hardcore players just being confused and want to stick with something close to what they learned in tutorials/campaign. Even if the game is 100% balanced, I'd expect zerg to be less represented from the casual factor alone.
Anyway, not doubting their sincerity, but this is a standard blizzard response and doesnt really tell us anything new. You can pretty much assume this stance on everything going forward. The more rare/notable cases are when they go "nope, you guys are wrong, not gonna fix/look at it!"
i think not only that but so many new players talk to the good players or read forums and come to the conclusion zerg is crap and then they all jump on the band wagon. hence only 26% representation. notice how in the lower leagues all the terrans are sucking really really bad? because they are most likely the players who are new to sc2, suck, or are just doing flavor of the month! haha!
good to hear blizzard is at least aware of the problem. i hope when they do make some changes rather then balance it... they make zerg a little more interesting to play. more options.
i dont know how many times in beta i QQ'd on threads trying to get blizzard to add another unit to the zerg tech tree. and look where they are now.. 26% representation!!
zerg was my favorite race in bw's. now i play diamond random. but would much rather be playing zerg only! maybe after an expansion or some COOL changes i'll go back. i miss kerrigan being evil too... wtf.
hydra speed is gay off creep. whoevers idea that was is a ritard
I can understand blizzard not wanting to make balance change too fast, i can imagine the shitstorm on the forums after: "that not whats needed!", "those change r bad", "omg does bliztard even play this game!"
Finding good solution(s) in a balance equation like this is not easy, i actually expect them to fuck up something, but they will get it right, eventually.
problem about balance (especially ZvT) exist since the end of the beta and blizzard always failed to react (every patch were buffing terrans)
I remember blizzard saying that they were going to fix zerg with some amazing stuff and then the patch when they give Frenzy to infestors to try to fix zergs (because they were aware that zerg were boring), huge fail the spell was pretty awfull they've removed it and did nothing else to fix zergs... I really can't feel like blizzard is going to do anything in the good direction to fix the balance either but we will see...
I think they need to bring in some changes that will allow zerg to get better map control. I thought they were a swarming race, but they seem so immobile off creep. They should make more open maps that have side routes that dont have like 4 destructible rocks to go through. Or maybe make the natural movement speed of all zerg units higher with the creep speed bonus lower. Dunno, 2 cents here
On August 18 2010 01:15 Amber[LighT] wrote: I love when Terran players get 5 reapers and think they're microing.
Or when they use two vikings as a follow-up to "micro" and kill off stray overlords
Or when they drop tank/thor on your cliff and "micro" it.
Or when they use banshee "micro" to carefully snipe two shot drones with little resistance.
User was warned for this post
Or when mutas come in a micro scvs and kill turrets Or when people blink micro stalkers Or when people micro graviton beam siege tanks with pheonix Or when people micro effectivly with collosi..
tbh the micro you mentioned from terran is in fact MICRO...
On August 18 2010 05:56 PanzerDragoon wrote: so like, 5 of the top 10 Korean are Zerg, and from what I've seen, they all play extremely aggressively.
What are they doing that the Euros are missing, who have 1 Zerg in top 10 lol
probably baneling busts. most of the zergs that are complaining (like idra) are ones who prefer late-game zerg but can't get there due to how strong reaper rushes and bunker rushes are.
no top zerg wants any change besides slower-building barracks/bunkers, right now early reapers or bunker rushes are like the original 4-pool, they just come too fast to stop.
On August 18 2010 02:53 EppE wrote: As for TLO he has shown alot of variety with Zerg too. TLO has PROVEN over the last 4 months that his will try to innovate. He may use some standard Terran cheese, but he manages to push past it if it fails. Most Terran can't. I'm an Idra fan but lets not bash TLO, he is good an has proven his ability to think outside the box.
I have nothing against TLO personally, I think he's a great player. But while players like IdrA, despite all the BM qq, stick to the race that is definitely more challenging to play, others go from random to the flavor of the month because it "gives them more options" (might as well say straight up it's the easiest to play). IdrA is an inspiration for people who struggle with Zerg, TLO is a letdown in general because he goes from very interesting creative random player to particularly good at lolterran abuse.
Doesn't take away from their skills. Just character wise, I'll take IdrA and his BM Zerg over TLO's "lol I can abuse hellions and then make a quick starport and viking harass cuz I play T".
This is the dumbest thing I've heard today. If Terran was your best race, and gets you the best results in your practice matches, why would you still use zerg? To lose?
It may surprise you, but people play games (and tournaments) to win, not for the challenge of playing.
Wtf is with this 26% shit? It's 19% on sc2ranks right now. That's a huge problem, don't try to understate it by bullshitting numbers. I'm also quite sick of blizzard's "Korean Zergs!1!1" shit because then retards regurgitate it despite it being blatantly false. Korea only has 17% zerg, 2% below the global average. Yes, that's right, even the fabled solid macro koreans think this race is boring and gay. Furthermore, 7, not 10, of the top 20 on kr are zerg, but maybe his post is a little old. Top 20 is probably a bad representation, something like top 100 would likely be a better representation of the highest skilled players.
On August 18 2010 05:56 PanzerDragoon wrote: so like, 5 of the top 10 Korean are Zerg, and from what I've seen, they all play extremely aggressively.
What are they doing that the Euros are missing, who have 1 Zerg in top 10 lol
probably baneling busts. most of the zergs that are complaining (like idra) are ones who prefer late-game zerg but can't get there due to how strong reaper rushes and bunker rushes are.
no top zerg wants any change besides slower-building barracks/bunkers, right now early reapers or bunker rushes are like the original 4-pool, they just come too fast to stop.
Watched a lot of Check's games recently on HD's channel, He's very aggressive with Zerg from one base and seems to be successful. Euro's and American players seem to favour expanding early where the Korean's seem to just go on constant attack from the go.. or at least that's what it's seemed in the vids i've watched recently.
On August 18 2010 03:01 shlomo wrote: I have nothing against TLO personally, I think he's a great player. But while players like IdrA, despite all the BM qq, stick to the race that is definitely more challenging to play, others go from random to the flavor of the month because it "gives them more options" (might as well say straight up it's the easiest to play). IdrA is an inspiration for people who struggle with Zerg, TLO is a letdown in general because he goes from very interesting creative random player to particularly good at lolterran abuse.
Doesn't take away from their skills. Just character wise, I'll take IdrA and his BM Zerg over TLO's "lol I can abuse hellions and then make a quick starport and viking harass cuz I play T".
This is the dumbest thing I've heard today. If Terran was your best race, and gets you the best results in your practice matches, why would you still use zerg? To lose?
It may surprise you, but people play games (and tournaments) to win, not for the challenge of playing.
I'm speaking from my (spectator) point of view. Of course, if it works better for him, it makes sense for him to pick Terran. It's just completely uninteresting to watch supercharged terran cheese game after game, with more and more TvT mirrors in pretty much each event I've followed lately.
Also, unless you're significantly better with Terran, I'm not sure it's strategically the best option to go with the flavor of the month, because in the long run when T gets nerfed or others get buffed, you might have a harder time adjusting after relying on the easyterran crutch for a while. Whereas if Z ever gets help in ZvT, a player like IdrA will only become scarier.
TLDR version: playing the easymode race might bite you in the ass when a good balance patch finally happens.
I can imagine Blizzard's problem.. So many people are switching or already playing terran.. If a nerf made Zerg more viable against Terran then even more people would be raging then the current zerg population.. It's only 20 % of the players and look how full the forums get with balance threads.. If all those terrans start donig that..
On August 18 2010 08:17 Drowsy wrote: Wtf is with this 26% shit? It's 19% on sc2ranks right now. That's a huge problem, don't try to understate it by bullshitting numbers. I'm also quite sick of blizzard's "Korean Zergs!1!1" shit because then retards regurgitate it despite it being blatantly false. Korea only has 17% zerg, 2% below the global average. Yes, that's right, even the fabled solid macro koreans think this race is boring and gay. Furthermore, 7, not 10, of the top 20 on kr are zerg, but maybe his post is a little old. Top 20 is probably a bad representation, something like top 100 would likely be a better representation of the highest skilled players.
I think we should all take a soak in the sauna to relax and collect our thoughts.
Zerg tears come pouring out again... twisting words to suit their own egos.
The statement is that zerg is underplayed, not underpowered. Balance changes are in the works, but not necessarily to buff zerg... Zerg cry about every single thing. They claim every single unit and every single mechanic as being inferior, depending on the thread.
And yet, most zerg do fine. There are no statistics to indicate imbalance. With no evidence, they continue to cry. Who could possibly be so foolish? Quit, forever, spare us your tears, as delicious as they are. The community will be better for it. You will always be bad, no matter what race you play, no matter what they balance. You'll find that out soon eonugh.
If you expect massive changes, it`s not going to happen. They`re probably going to make some minor changes (-1 damage for random units or something), see what happens, make more minor changes, see what happens, until things settle down. This is no longer beta. This is a real game now. They have to tread carefully.
About pros using terran: pros using zerg are what you should be raging at. When pros use terran and win tournaments, that`s a sign of imbalance. When IdrA rages while winning anyway... it`s not. I don`t see why he doesn`t switch to terran himself.
(what the hell is happening to my apostrophes am I stuck in Canadian French modeÉÉÉ)
Am I wrong in assuming that most Korean terrans like to use bio in TvZ? or at least use a half-half mix of bio with mech? I haven't seen many Korean games where they go pure mech, but then again I haven't seen that many Korean terrans at all. Since zerg deals with bio easier, that was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the Korean rankings.
On August 18 2010 08:17 Drowsy wrote: Wtf is with this 26% shit? It's 19% on sc2ranks right now. That's a huge problem, don't try to understate it by bullshitting numbers. I'm also quite sick of blizzard's "Korean Zergs!1!1" shit because then retards regurgitate it despite it being blatantly false. Korea only has 17% zerg, 2% below the global average. Yes, that's right, even the fabled solid macro koreans think this race is boring and gay. Furthermore, 7, not 10, of the top 20 on kr are zerg, but maybe his post is a little old. Top 20 is probably a bad representation, something like top 100 would likely be a better representation of the highest skilled players.
On August 18 2010 06:45 MythicalMage wrote: I think a lot of it is PR and psychology. When I'm picking my race, I don't want the one that the community deems UP, whether or not that's true.
On August 18 2010 08:28 Tachion wrote: Am I wrong in assuming that most Korean terrans like to use bio in TvZ? or at least use a half-half mix of bio with mech? I haven't seen many Korean games where they go pure mech, but then again I haven't seen that many Korean terrans at all. Since zerg deals with bio easier, that was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the Korean rankings.
Yeah, pretty much all the "evidence" provided by casters such as Day9 of "Zerg is fine L2P" is a bunch of TvZs where T goes bioball, bio drops, or bio with some mech sprinkled in. Everytime I see one of those I'm like woohoo thanks, I'm glad we figured out that bio isn't a huge problem, because that's totally new and surprising.
On August 18 2010 08:26 ToxNub wrote: This thread is officially hijacked.
Zerg tears come pouring out again... twisting words to suit their own egos.
The statement is that zerg is underplayed, not underpowered. Balance changes are in the works, but not necessarily to buff zerg... Zerg cry about every single thing. They claim every single unit and every single mechanic as being inferior, depending on the thread.
And yet, most zerg do fine. There are no statistics to indicate imbalance. With no evidence, they continue to cry. Who could possibly be so foolish? Quit, forever, spare us your tears, as delicious as they are. The community will be better for it. You will always be bad, no matter what race you play, no matter what they balance. You'll find that out soon eonugh.
On August 18 2010 02:31 AcOrP wrote: why so many people blame the lower skill level for zerg being week... Yes in lower division skill level is low... But if you make mistake with zerg you lose the game. And if you are terran even if u do tons of mistakes its still hard for zerg to win the game... Korean zergs are doing fine but korean zergs have insane high skill level and in ladder you don't realy face pros only, you do face alot weaker oponents that are basicly free wins for the pro korean zergs...
On August 18 2010 08:17 Drowsy wrote: Wtf is with this 26% shit? It's 19% on sc2ranks right now. That's a huge problem, don't try to understate it by bullshitting numbers. I'm also quite sick of blizzard's "Korean Zergs!1!1" shit because then retards regurgitate it despite it being blatantly false. Korea only has 17% zerg, 2% below the global average. Yes, that's right, even the fabled solid macro koreans think this race is boring and gay. Furthermore, 7, not 10, of the top 20 on kr are zerg, but maybe his post is a little old. Top 20 is probably a bad representation, something like top 100 would likely be a better representation of the highest skilled players.
oh wow hahaha. Well, it's pretty much impossible to go on a long streak as zerg, it's only a matter of time until somebody does some unscoutable early aggression you blindly weren't able to react to properly.
Still, the point of my post is that it's distressing when blizzard employees misquote statistics and when a thread is made with all sorts of false numbers that will mislead readers and make for worse discussion. I don't think people appreciate the gravity of 19%, and I'm quite tired of being patronized by posters who claim American/Euro/Latin zergs simply aren't creative or good enough to play zerg and that only the koreans can do it right, which is a bs copout argument that has been refuted too many times.
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote: "Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
They shouldn't have taken out the lurker before the beta . They said that the lurker overlaped with the other units and practically said fuck you to zerg users and if you want a complete race wait for the expansion and an other 60 $ dollars . If they bring back the lurker in Hots i will be forced to destroy my SC2 wings of liberty CD and never buy an other blizzard game again . They already made the game super expensive by spliting it in to 3 parts and if the reason they left the zerg race unfinished ( compared to the other 2 races in wings of liberty ) is that they want people to buy their expansion is unforgivable .
That's what it looks like. Even if they don't bring back the lurker, I have a feeling HOTS will add a unit which will fill a pivotal role in the zerg arsenal and that unit will be more vital to zerg users than whatever units they add to terran and protoss will be to those races.
On August 18 2010 01:33 ironchef wrote: Not going to comment on balance,but zerg being underrepresented makes total sense to me. Theyre the most different race mechanic wise, and werent playable in single player. I can see tons of new, non hardcore players just being confused and want to stick with something close to what they learned in tutorials/campaign. Even if the game is 100% balanced, I'd expect zerg to be less represented from the casual factor alone.
Yeah, but 19% is plainly too low. I, too, would expect it to be lower than other races solely from lack of being in single player, mechanical differences, and lack of visual appeal. Maybe something like 24-27%.
And what about team games? Zerg is even more unpopular in team games it seems.
Hey, i Remember reading in that forum late last night about how blizzard is taking out "one unit you love" (I think Bashiok said it). Not sure wether it was a troll or not though. Too lazy to go through entire forum right now, but maybe i'll edit it later.
I won't debate whether zerg is ultimately UP, but I will say there are a ton more strategies zerg players can try before throwing in the towel.
1) More burrow uses (roaches, banelings) 2) More drops (very few zergs use drops/nydus right now, to their detriment). 3) Faster broodlord/ultra tech (right now the common z midgame is 2 evos with upgrades. What if all that money was spent on faster hive tech...it might be a better overall strat) 4) Corruption. Especially against those pesky thors, it might be a big help there.
Game still has a long learning curve to get to where it is going.
I'm pretty pleased that they are not rushing to make a change because of complaints. I like that about Blizzard, they will listen to the community without blindly doing every thing everyone wants.
On August 18 2010 09:05 Karas wrote: I won't debate whether zerg is ultimately UP, but I will say there are a ton more strategies zerg players can try before throwing in the towel.
1) More burrow uses (roaches, banelings) 2) More drops (very few zergs use drops/nydus right now, to their detriment). 3) Faster broodlord/ultra tech (right now the common z midgame is 2 evos with upgrades. What if all that money was spent on faster hive tech...it might be a better overall strat) 4) Corruption. Especially against those pesky thors, it might be a big help there.
Game still has a long learning curve to get to where it is going.
Everything youre talking about have allready been discussed like a thousands time, and are simply not viable. Plz stop saying the same stuff over and over and over such as "Zerg don't know to play", "Korean zergs dominate everybopdy", "they don't use enough the unit X or Y".
On August 18 2010 09:05 Karas wrote: I won't debate whether zerg is ultimately UP, but I will say there are a ton more strategies zerg players can try before throwing in the towel.
1) More burrow uses (roaches, banelings) 2) More drops (very few zergs use drops/nydus right now, to their detriment). 3) Faster broodlord/ultra tech (right now the common z midgame is 2 evos with upgrades. What if all that money was spent on faster hive tech...it might be a better overall strat) 4) Corruption. Especially against those pesky thors, it might be a big help there.
Game still has a long learning curve to get to where it is going.
Burrow : 100/100 at lair
Ok, lets assume out of sheer brilliance you have enough to afford all the essentials like roach speed (100/100), hydra range (150/150), Hydra Den (150/50), OV speed (100/100), Spire (200/200), upgrades (250/250 at minimum with 2 evo chambers) which is a total of 850/850 before burrow that is going to RESEARCH and not units. Now you want burrow? Ok.. that brings it up to 950/950. So, with burrow, what are you going to do? Bling bombs? They might work the first two times, but guess what? 4 blings (min) are an additional 100 gas. Eventually the player will catch on and put in a detector unit for their army. Your bombs have just been countered and unless you killed off a damn good amount of units, burrow was just a waste.
Ok.. So now you decide to use burrow for roaches. Thats fine and dandy except the problem is that even though roaches are intended to have a very fast regen rate, its not enough to be able to keep roaches alive during a push, especially when theres a detector allowing your opponent to just shoot your roaches and killing them even while burrowed (which btw, your roach count is no doubt severely hampered due to the amount of research you had to invest in). Want roach burrow movement? Fine, another 150/150... Which brings the total to a whopping 1100/1100 in research alone. Oh.. and now you have to tech to hive.
Drops : 300/300 at lair
IDK what kinda zergs you play against, but I and many others are sometimes forced to drop.... but really what damage can be done before a counter attack? Its not like "LOLOLOL I DROP YOU LOSE GG"... You devote units and a large amount of resources in order to either 1)pull his army back or 2) Try to kill off his supply. Never does a drop actually lead to a win if thats all you rely on. Oh? You saying to do more then 2-3 drops in a game? Well guess what? That is a lot of units your devoting towards which all end up getting killed. Then what do you have to defend if the T player counter attacks at that instance?
Faster hive
Ok great, Lets assume you decide to avoid all the nasty stuff in the mid game and attempt to blitz for the hive tech... for what? You will still be SEVERELY gas deprived (ultras are 300 gas each, BL are 250 each including corrupter) in addition to no doubt having to deal with a monster of a push because as you were blitzing for your darling unit of choice, you in turn gave up map control and any real army to prevent a game winning push because.. Oh lookie there... your starved for gas and your unit is still building and... Oh crap the amount of time it took you to read this is about how long it takes for a push to be in your main. Yeh, not possible.
Corruption : 150/100 for the unit, plus waiting for the 75 energy (I think its 75, or that might be the changeling ability)
Lets pretend for a moment we didnt have to put in 850 gas for our research and we make an overseer. Great, you have an overseer w00t w00t! So you fly in, corrupt a building and bingo! ... now what? Well chances are very good at least 1 thor/colossus/ w/e got out before you could fly a OS in there and even if one hadn't, you get a max of 30 in-game seconds as a window to do maybe a few potshots with mutas or an impressive timing push (which would just get thwarted by the army the other race has). Ok, you made 3-4 OS for the sole purpose to just piss off your opponent with corruption. Well guess what? Thats 400 less gas gone to roaches/hydras/mutas to actually attack/defend or 400 less gas to research which is already demanding enough, and you are of course assuming the player wont just get some AA unit to hunt down OS and OV.
Zerg has strategies, LOADs of strategies, TONS of tactics. But guess what? You cannot execute them all in a single game. Not possible. Its to gas demanding and usually cost far exceed the benefits. Plus zerg also has to deal with constant early aggression and timing pushes with no real way to push back in the early game without giving up any real chance of surviving in the mid game. Thus really, zerg is forced into a surviving position where you just cling on to w/e you have and hope you dont die. And I mean come on, its not like zerg was given much to work with from the start, only nydus for harassment and a queen for macro/creep.
People here are completely missing the point of the "26%" comment. First off, he wasn't saying that it currently IS 26%, he was using that as an example of what a less-dedicated development team might be satisfied with- an empty number. Second off, the reason one might be satisfied with that number is because 25% is the optimal target number for a percentage of race distribution just like 50% is the target number for win/loss ratios.
Remember, their are 4 race options, not 3 (Random).
To reiterate, he was saying that some teams might see 26% as being close enough to even distribution of races played and then not look for imbalances, but the Blizzard team is NOT doing that, but is, rather, looking much deeper.
On August 18 2010 09:53 Sylvr wrote: Remember, their are 4 race options, not 3 (Random).
To be fair, expecting 25% random is unrealistic by nature (it's just harder to be good at all 3 races rather than just one). The split they're probably shooting for is 30/30/30/10.
I'm glad Blizzard isn't giving into momentary balance woes for the sake of satisfying complaints.
We're still in early stages of the game, and we can't just can't get too caught up in the short term balance. I'd rather we take our time and make the correct changes and just accept some tournament imbalances.
As long as we start getting towards a balanced game by the next year or so, I'll be happy.
Just gotta have patience .
(I play as Zerg also, to avoid any silly ad hominem arguments :p)
sigh I'm glad to hear word, unfortunately, the guy sounds like most of the people on this forum trying to back up balance by ranks. WTF are these people smoking? Cause i've got some good shit, but wow.
Corruption : 150/100 for the unit, plus waiting for the 75 energy (I think its 75, or that might be the changeling ability)
Lets pretend for a moment we didnt have to put in 850 gas for our research and we make an overseer. Great, you have an overseer w00t w00t! So you fly in, corrupt a building and bingo! ... now what? Well chances are very good at least 1 thor/colossus/ w/e got out before you could fly a OS in there and even if one hadn't, you get a max of 30 in-game seconds as a window to do maybe a few potshots with mutas or an impressive timing push (which would just get thwarted by the army the other race has). Ok, you made 3-4 OS for the sole purpose to just piss off your opponent with corruption. Well guess what? Thats 400 less gas gone to roaches/hydras/mutas to actually attack/defend or 400 less gas to research which is already demanding enough, and you are of course assuming the player wont just get some AA unit to hunt down OS and OV.
Kinda of hard to pick up on this because both corrupters and overseers are 150 100 and both CORRUPTION and CONTAMINATION are 75 energy, but ya the spells are not the same thing, and CORRUPTION (+20% damage against single target for 30 seconds) is okay against air/ground massives, but sadly doesnt work on buildings (even while flying).
Only reason its underused it because there is really no negative to use it since they have energy and only the one ability, but if zerg manages to get to late game ZvT they will clearly have air dom and likely tons of corrupters so i guess they should find more uses for this (although other than spamming on air units and tanks/thor what can you use it on?)
Bashiok's terribly poor grammar and specious statistics notwithstanding, his arguments simply serve to highlight fundamental flaws in the bnet 2.0 system. I am not impressed.
Corruption : 150/100 for the unit, plus waiting for the 75 energy (I think its 75, or that might be the changeling ability)
Lets pretend for a moment we didnt have to put in 850 gas for our research and we make an overseer. Great, you have an overseer w00t w00t! So you fly in, corrupt a building and bingo! ... now what? Well chances are very good at least 1 thor/colossus/ w/e got out before you could fly a OS in there and even if one hadn't, you get a max of 30 in-game seconds as a window to do maybe a few potshots with mutas or an impressive timing push (which would just get thwarted by the army the other race has). Ok, you made 3-4 OS for the sole purpose to just piss off your opponent with corruption. Well guess what? Thats 400 less gas gone to roaches/hydras/mutas to actually attack/defend or 400 less gas to research which is already demanding enough, and you are of course assuming the player wont just get some AA unit to hunt down OS and OV.
Kinda of hard to pick up on this because both corrupters and overseers are 150 100 and both CORRUPTION and CONTAMINATION are 75 energy, but ya the spells are not the same thing, and CORRUPTION (+20% damage against single target for 30 seconds) is okay against air/ground massives, but sadly doesnt work on buildings (even while flying).
Only reason its underused it because there is really no negative to use it since they have energy and only the one ability, but if zerg manages to get to late game ZvT they will clearly have air dom and likely tons of corrupters so i guess they should find more uses for this (although other than spamming on air units and tanks/thor what can you use it on?)
I still dont see the point of corruption tbh. I don't like these +dps spells that blizzard gives. If your making corruptors just for the +dps, your almost better off just making that extra hydra/mutas w/e as that gives better +dps than corruptors' ability, and it doesn't go away after the targeted unit dies. Since all massive units that can be hit by the corruptor are armour, why not just give it +25% pure dmg? Corruption just feels like a shoddy "oh we need more zerg abilities b4 they QQ..."
At least give corruption auto-cast or something so you don't have to manually target each unit in the army after your corruptors become useles.
My god what a bunch of crying noobs you guys really are.
To test the water i've been playing zerg exclusively to see if it was really THAT bad and it isn't. The only bother would be terran mass bio & toss early mass zealots.
Sack and overlord from time to time or better yet, go for lair/changeling before roaches etc.
People don't seem to grasp the fact that zergs aren't meant to go 1 on 1 in unit count. You have to outnumber your opponent AT ALL TIMES. If you're at the same unit count you're going to get nailed, hard.
Also why do you think the evo only costs 75 ? Think it's there just for the show ? Get your damn armor upgrades before lair as well.
I still dont see the point of corruption tbh. I don't like these +dps spells that blizzard gives. If your making corruptors just for the +dps, your almost better off just making that extra hydra/mutas w/e as that gives better +dps than corruptors' ability, and it doesn't go away after the targeted unit dies. Since all massive units that can be hit by the corruptor are armour, why not just give it +25% pure dmg? Corruption just feels like a shoddy "oh we need more zerg abilities b4 they QQ..."
At least give corruption auto-cast or something so you don't have to manually target each unit in the army after your corruptors become useles.
problem with corruption autocast is that they could bait it and then send in air/massives during cooldown, unless of course they changed it from 75 energy and lowered the duration or something.
In any case I only ever get around to using it against fliers and massives
On August 18 2010 12:45 Kigari wrote: My god what a bunch of crying noobs you guys really are.
To test the water i've been playing zerg exclusively to see if it was really THAT bad and it isn't. The only bother would be terran mass bio & toss early mass zealots.
Sack and overlord from time to time or better yet, go for lair/changeling before roaches etc.
People don't seem to grasp the fact that zergs aren't meant to go 1 on 1 in unit count. You have to outnumber your opponent AT ALL TIMES. If you're at the same unit count you're going to get nailed, hard.
Also why do you think the evo only costs 75 ? Think it's there just for the show ? Get your damn armor upgrades before lair as well.
What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote: Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand
Lol, anywhere in mid to high diamond this will result in a bunker rush and you getting owned, or at the very best delayed a lot, which also eventually results in you getting owned.
Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately.
On August 18 2010 13:01 shlomo wrote: Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately.
Who said to do the hatchery BEFORE the pool ?
Keep assuming you know best sherlock, maybe it's the reason so many of you zerg whiners suck so hard with that race ?
On August 18 2010 13:01 shlomo wrote: Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately.
Who said to do the hatchery BEFORE the pool ?
Keep assuming you know best sherlock, maybe it's the reason so many of you zerg whiners suck so hard with that race ?
So when is the pool going down that you have this amazing econ to put the hatch down at 14 and have zerglings ready for the bunker rush?
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
This tactic is based entirely on trickery. If they see the Nydus coming, you're dead.
Also, it will severely put you behind economically. Mass Zerglings means fewer Drones. This is all-in; it is not something that is reasonable, stable play. It's a gimmick. Maybe a nice one, but victory by gimmick doesn't help you in the long run. The Terrans will eventually learn how to deal with it, and it very much can be dealt with.
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
Interesting ! i'll be sure to test this out. But, armor upgrade ? Wouldn't attack be better ?
Most of the starcraft2 players here I belaive wants equal game. We dont want zerg to be underpowered or to read 10 million threads zergs opening about mech etc. I want all races to be as equal as possible when it comes to the chances of winnig the game.
My only fear is that this attitude zerg players showed recently reminds me my days of WoW. Where everyone was crying over everything and Blizzard on purposely buffed nerfed classes. Do you know for what? To get equal numbers of players on each class. I am just afraid that they will react the same way. Let hope they dont do that
Kigari's build is just an option of a build i've been using for a long time, FE fast lair is extremely good against terran. i tend to go infestor or mutalisk depending on what i feel needs to be done. but nydus, hydra roach or ling bling are all options out of the opening.
14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool lair as soon as pool finishes, you get the 2nd hatch finished before you would normally get a queen, and so you don't actually fall behind in larva at all even not getting a queen until after you start the lair (get it at your nat). and having lair finished a while before the double hellion or marine tank or marauder hellion or marine marauder attack comes gives you quite a few option in defending against it. and from there you are actually ahead of the terran with only a little damage done to your econ ( i lose on average 2 workers by making spinecrawlers)
I highly reccomend fast expand fast lair as an opening in ZvT
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
this guy is a progamer lings! why didnt i think of that!?
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
Your a Troll.
... but I'll bite, show us a rep where this works. Must be a diamond player with higher than 500 points. Just wondering how you sneak a nydus into a map awared player's base. What if he opened vikings/banshees? what if he lifts his base and base trades? I don't understand the armour upgrade. What about speed upgrade?
This is a cheese/all-in. There's no teching up afterwards with 'threat' of nydus. He can have 2 workers patrolling perimeter and then grab 3 more off min line and kill ur worm.
Been working on this build since beta. If your nydus is delayed, ur behind in tech (down 300 gas). Btw 4 workers kills a nydus wen it's 50% so no 'hardcore defensive mode' neccessary.
On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote: Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
What kind of lowbie terran player would scout you going mass zerglings and then proceed to get 2+ tanks? Any reasonable player will mass hellions at that point not to mention getting pre-igniter would be the end of the game for the zerg.
On August 18 2010 13:19 PrinceXizor wrote: Kigari's build is just an option of a build i've been using for a long time, FE fast lair is extremely good against terran. i tend to go infestor or mutalisk depending on what i feel needs to be done. but nydus, hydra roach or ling bling are all options out of the opening.
14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool lair as soon as pool finishes, you get the 2nd hatch finished before you would normally get a queen, and so you don't actually fall behind in larva at all even not getting a queen until after you start the lair (get it at your nat). and having lair finished a while before the double hellion or marine tank or marauder hellion or marine marauder attack comes gives you quite a few option in defending against it. and from there you are actually ahead of the terran with only a little damage done to your econ ( i lose on average 2 workers by making spinecrawlers)
I highly reccomend fast expand fast lair as an opening in ZvT
Doesn't any hatch-before-pool lose to reapers because of the fact that the reaper will be in your base before the pool even finishes?
Isn't this the whole point that Idra has been making for weeks now about how Zerg has to play 1-base builds? Isn't it accepted that ZvT is reasonable if Z actually gets away with a hatch-first expansion without getting put behind by bunker rush/reapers/etc?
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to.
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
Interesting ! i'll be sure to test this out. But, armor upgrade ? Wouldn't attack be better ?
It depends what your facing. With Protoss for example Zealots kill Zerglings in 3 attacks until they get the +1 weapon upgrade when they 2 shot them. If you get the +1 armor upgrade its back to 3 shots.
On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote: Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand
Lol, anywhere in mid to high diamond this will result in a bunker rush and you getting owned, or at the very best delayed a lot, which also eventually results in you getting owned.
Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately.
No, this one is actually legit. Strange as it might sound, having 2 queens earlier because of a faster second hatch and being able to place a spine crawler earlier is way stronger against a bunker than having a lot of lings which will be obliterated by 1 reaper in a bunker. 14 hatch is pretty underused and I think it's way easier to play against a solid mech terran with good macro using that opening. The speedling expo build vs mech is really difficult as your econ is just so weak.
Right on thanks for sharing this with everyone that may not know. This is the only way for Blizzard to operate, in my opinion. It makes sense.
Beta was a testing phase, not a game demonstration.
They are perfectly aware of things, and must move more carefully with a Live game. They most certainly will continue to develop the game, for a long time.
It does go without saying that they do not need unbalance to sell expansions. That there is even any need for Bashiok to mention that is a reflection of the state of gaming thanks to consoles with their 5 hours worth of content and zero bug fixes and 'download content paid for'.
But this is PC gaming, and this is Blizzard after all.
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote: "Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
On August 18 2010 00:11 Archerofaiur wrote: Zerg is UP...under polished.
that.
i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time.
I agree on the that matter, but a race is really hard to polish once a game is out. Like adding a completely new unit into the game or getting rid of one.
I will admit that when I played Terran I thought Zerg was fine and everyone was QQing but now that I switched I see what everyones talking about. Theory craft is so easy to do and people need to stop telling Zergs how to operate because in game things are always different. The fast nydus cheese is a good idea but SUPER risky and even at gold level Terrans supply around their base because they are turtling and watching their main like hawks. I really think early game is the only problem with Zerg against Terran, mech is hard but beatable. So if something was changed so Zergs could deal with Terrans million options of harass I think things would be fine.
Almost every game I get a reaper in my main, then hellions and then banshees so I have to stay tight and not mass expand. By the time I can safely build up and tech the Terran is pushing out with a ball and if I am a better player I can stop it but otherwise... You know the story.
But I digress, my main point is stop the theory craft, things are harder to pull off then just a build order or idea.
On August 18 2010 00:11 Archerofaiur wrote: Zerg is UP...under polished.
that.
i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time.
I agree on the that matter, but a race is really hard to polish once a game is out. Like adding a completely new unit into the game or getting rid of one.
I just hope Blizz figures out something.
Edit: I evolved into a hydra >:D
I'm not to sure why people have the notion that dramatic change is impossible outside of beta. Sure it's uncanny, as game developers want to try and get a finalized version of their game.
But look at games that seem to be ever changing like DotA, it changes A LOT and yet still manages to keep most of it's fan base. It's not really up to the Game Developers to say "This change is too drastic" or "This change will not be accepted by the players" but rather the players themselves to embrace.
But yes, more power to Blizzard, they'll probably get something about the disgruntled community ;P
On August 18 2010 00:11 Archerofaiur wrote: Zerg is UP...under polished.
that.
i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time.
I agree on the that matter, but a race is really hard to polish once a game is out. Like adding a completely new unit into the game or getting rid of one.
I just hope Blizz figures out something.
Edit: I evolved into a hydra >:D
I'm not to sure why people have the notion that dramatic change is impossible outside of beta. Sure it's uncanny, as game developers want to try and get a finalized version of their game.
But look at games that seem to be ever changing like DotA, it changes A LOT and yet still manages to keep most of it's fan base. It's not really up to the Game Developers to say "This change is too drastic" or "This change will not be accepted by the players" but rather the players themselves to embrace.
But yes, more power to Blizzard, they'll probably get something about the disgruntled community ;P
Well I suppose since the game is still in it's early stages there's stuff they can still do. But imagine SC1 and removing tanks, or Call of Duty and adding vehicles into the game or something. Those changes just don't feel right into a game already released.
About the 26% only. I don't think this says too much about the balance of the game.
- In sc2 you play ranking games and want to reach the top leagues. In this case most of the players will become result oriented. - Players like Idra and Dimaga speak of race imbalance people will listen and people will listen to those as well etc. - You only have one account for 1v1 gaming.
So... Players want to reach as high rank as possible, playing random makes this more difficult. They only have one account to use for it so experimenting with the other races is to many not an option. Imbalance on lower levels can hardly make any difference at all but the talks of Zerg being the weakest race will affect the players choice as they want good results to show off.
Perhaps the possibility to have different 1v1 account for each race would be a nice idea.
It's well recognized that there are a few ways for T/P players to exploit Zerg in early game, by nearly every top ranked Pro - even the ones who are not Zerg. There are some -slight- issues with mid game pre-T3, but those are much less of an issue as you can actually have a variety of ways to attempt to combat those, unlike the early game issues.
With that said, them saying that they are working on it is enough for me. Even a very small balance change for early game would likely fix the match completely, as an early game change would trickle down in to the mid-late game and put Zerg in a slightly better position, which would make things very desirable, as the mid game problems are only slight, and only if T/P exploit certain timings.
I just hope the changes come sooner rather than later... but their acknowledgment is enough for me to continue sticking to Zerg until then. Which is great - I was debating going random until hearing a response.
On August 18 2010 00:22 Integra wrote: Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.
Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
o yea which exactly mid tier zerg unit is fine compare to equivalentt terran or toss.
Hydras + mutas vs thors or collossi , infestors vs high templars archons or ghosts ?
No comparison here.
then at end game ... terran can have - not that it needs - more expansions than zerg , almost free with uber defences - pf + mules ftw
let alone top tier units for toss + terran >>> zerg
have u ever bother to check something more than R and M in replays ? check mineral spend and armies lost for tvz and see how T has actually more army with less spending and less casualties in almost every pro game .
no its not fine zerg simply underperforms in every possible way
I find it ironic that zerg is supposedly some extremely mobile army yet can't catch a reaper or hellion before they do significant damage in most cases and have to resort to spine crawlers. So I guess you could say zerg has a mobile army... once you pay for it (upgrades) and spread the creep.
On August 19 2010 05:54 SirGlinG wrote: About the 26% only. I don't think this says too much about the balance of the game.
- In sc2 you play ranking games and want to reach the top leagues. In this case most of the players will become result oriented. - Players like Idra and Dimaga speak of race imbalance people will listen and people will listen to those as well etc. - You only have one account for 1v1 gaming.
So... Players want to reach as high rank as possible, playing random makes this more difficult. They only have one account to use for it so experimenting with the other races is to many not an option. Imbalance on lower levels can hardly make any difference at all but the talks of Zerg being the weakest race will affect the players choice as they want good results to show off.
Perhaps the possibility to have different 1v1 account for each race would be a nice idea.
19 global, korea at only 17, not 26 global. Zerg is surely worse in team games. I raged about this a few pages ago, op doesn't accurately state how large the discrepancy actually is.
I would like opinions on this. What if they don't buff zerg as in a units stats but buff them as in making them fast like when on creep and just remove the extra speed they get on creep. Would that help? I know that would make spreading creep less important but it might level the playing field..?
That first Bashiok post was pretty obvious. People should have expected careful contemplation before patching when SC2 is live. I wouldn't worry about it honestly, it isn't like the game is unplayable.
Seems reasonable from Blizz. No one wants Z to just stomp over everything. Yeah, ZvT is hard right now, and yeah I'd like it to be perfect, but it takes time. It's been out less than a month and pretty damn close to balanced for a newly released game.
I know its never gonna happen but let me have some dreams :
blizzard should add a new zerg t1/t1.5 unit, it would:
- add diversity - allow us more different openings and aggressive play - allow us to deal correctly with all the openings/harass terran have (in teh early game)
this unit should not have a big impact on mid and late game, its fine as it is right now
I am all for slow and appropriate balance changes. Hell I'm the one who brought these quotes here to try and calm the mass Zerg raging.
But I really hope it's sooner rather than later. And I really hope it's a balance fix that just feels right rather than some band-aid they slap on.(Hi 2 Supply Roach)
Changes made this early in the game tend to stick around for the life of the game, and having some stupid change like that (Oh, hey again 2 Supply Roach) redefine how units are used is just really bad design.
So, here's to hoping, Blizzard! 1) Make the RIGHT change, not a quick fix.(we just keep bumping into each other 2 Supply Roach) 2) Make it sooner rather than later!
i just feel like the beta hasn't ended. i mean right i got the game and i don't have to pay for it somewhen in the near future and my achievements won't get lost anymore ... but actually i am still doing what i was doing in the beta. like train mcro and macro and wait for when the game is "out" i mean like finally out like balance meant to be played and stuff... it just still feels so unfinished - not thought through entirely... like the design concept has flaws. well c u next patch... kinda depressing but iguess most people really think that the game is already pretty balanced for the repeatetly said so.
On August 18 2010 00:19 Phayze wrote: Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
Using ladder for statistics is less of a joke than using TWO people for statistics.
On August 18 2010 00:19 Phayze wrote: Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
Using ladder for statistics is less of a joke than using TWO people for statistics.
/headdesk
oGs and Prime are the top Korean teams, not single people.
On August 19 2010 23:38 Drakkart wrote: i just feel like the beta hasn't ended. i mean right i got the game and i don't have to pay for it somewhen in the near future and my achievements won't get lost anymore ... but actually i am still doing what i was doing in the beta. like train mcro and macro and wait for when the game is "out" i mean like finally out like balance meant to be played and stuff... it just still feels so unfinished - not thought through entirely... like the design concept has flaws. well c u next patch... kinda depressing but iguess most people really think that the game is already pretty balanced for the repeatetly said so.
I don't think the game is going to be really finishied until the 1st or even the 2nd expansion. That's the way it was for SC/BW. The gameplay will be really good afeter expansions
I think it didn't take people to discover how to stack and harass with mutas in BW til like four years after the game came out (correct me if im wrong). Maybe we'll find something later on in SC2's lifetime as Zerg.
On August 20 2010 01:04 wizerd wrote: why not just take out that annoying thing that people tolerate, but just want to go away?
TAKE OUT THE REAPER
reapers are fun and have a cool death animation. increasing the build time of the barracks would nerf them enough imo.
Reapers don't add a whole lot to the game compared to what they prohibit. You get a minute or two of potentially-cool harass (that's nowhere near as technical as SC1 muta harass) at the cost of destroying the viability of economic fast-expansion builds, for fear of losing to reapers.
Seeing as reaper harassment isn't extremely technical, I'd expect that the skill ceiling on it should be hit once we get players with SC1 progamer-level mechanics--meaning that in the long run, the cost of losing the option for economic fast expansion openings is more damaging to the game's depth than the reaper can make up for.
On August 20 2010 01:04 wizerd wrote: why not just take out that annoying thing that people tolerate, but just want to go away?
TAKE OUT THE REAPER
reapers are fun and have a cool death animation. increasing the build time of the barracks would nerf them enough imo.
Reapers don't add a whole lot to the game compared to what they prohibit. You get a minute or two of potentially-cool harass (that's nowhere near as technical as SC1 muta harass) at the cost of destroying the viability of economic fast-expansion builds, for fear of losing to reapers.
Seeing as reaper harassment isn't extremely technical, I'd expect that the skill ceiling on it should be hit once we get players with SC1 progamer-level mechanics--meaning that in the long run, the cost of losing the option for economic fast expansion openings is more damaging to the game's depth than the reaper can make up for.
that's why i said increase the rax or maybe tech lab build time, that way you'll have a few units out if you do an economic build and people can start to develop anti-reaper micro.
how is it "nowhere near as technical as SC1 muta harass"? SC1 muta harass was "right click, h, right click, repeat"
On August 18 2010 00:19 Phayze wrote: Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
you definitely have a point there. a lot of people who play sc2 competitively don't even play on ladder that often. it's not a good way to get stats.
On August 20 2010 02:11 0neder wrote: I like Husky's idea of making terran more scout-able. A building that indicates marauder or reaper (but doesn't have a dumb name like Merc Compound).
um, there's something attached to the barracks that definitely indicates this.
On August 20 2010 02:11 0neder wrote: I like Husky's idea of making terran more scout-able. A building that indicates marauder or reaper (but doesn't have a dumb name like Merc Compound).
um, there's something attached to the barracks that definitely indicates this.
He said marauder or reaper, not marauder and reaper...
Well the reason no protoss made it was cause the players made a bunch of bad decisions which lead to their leaving that round as a loser. Which is why some of the other players that didn't get out of that round and they didn't play protoss. There's a difference between game balance and the player just not playing at the level they should.
On August 20 2010 02:11 0neder wrote: I like Husky's idea of making terran more scout-able. A building that indicates marauder or reaper (but doesn't have a dumb name like Merc Compound).
um, there's something attached to the barracks that definitely indicates this.
He said marauder or reaper, not marauder and reaper...
Oh sorry, so like different tech for marauders and reapers? Yeah I could see that, but the thing is that no one is going to use reapers unless you can get them early or transition out of them. So maybe another tech building for marauder? I just don't see it happening, lengthening the time to put down a tech lab seems like a more elegant solution.
TvP is sorta balanced PvZ is probably most balanced TvZ is what people are complaining about
26% of their player base picking Zerg is an issue to them.
Bashiok does not say that Blizzard is unhappy with zerg balance.
He made the claim that they're not happy with 26%. Not happy is not the same thing as unhappy. This is highlighted when he followed this claim up by saying that drawing conclusions on balance from representation is illogical.
Watch this. . Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
Why did you bump this thread after all the patches that have been released? The patches have changed some of the matchups and your statements about Blizzard has very little to do with the argument itself
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
You do realize 3 base terran or protoss is supposed to compete with n base anything else right? I mean would you ever even consider making more than maybe 70 workers? That's at most 3 bases worth of income. Enjoy the rest of the thought process. The only thing you gain from extra bases is gas for extremely fast massing of gas heavy units and larvae, lots and lots of larvae. The rest of the races gain just gas and I believe 2.5 mining bases is most I've seen anyone have so far due to depletion mostly.
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
Lol, that video was from August 17th.... Why would you show/argue something that was more of an issue 4 months ago?
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
On December 10 2010 22:44 komengsky wrote: Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqnwU9SbQU. Dimaga just proved a freaking huge point that zerg is way underpowered and TvZ is way too imbalanced. Even as a not so good terran player he could beat any zerg player. Imagine 3 base terran can handle 6-7 base zerg. Too bad though because of greed, blizzard just play deaf and not pay any attention to it. Perhaps if ppl stop playing starcraft 2 only then will they do something about it. Fuck blizzard.
sorry i dont watch games of cheaters!
ok, thread is obviously stupid but WHAT TYLER?
Dimaga in TSL2 comes to mind
+ some Tyler Trolling =)
rive and rearn ^______________________^
now i feel dumb for not having followed BW... sigh......
EPT
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