• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 15:51
CET 21:51
KST 05:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down
Tourneys
SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Rollback Netcode in Brood War Sagi.gg Launcher Released BW General Discussion [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [$1250] International ShieldBattery League Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc Deus Ex 3!?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Playlenda
Playlendapro
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8134 users

Bashiok Aknowledging Balance Issues

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:15:21
August 17 2010 15:07 GMT
#1
A thread was just made, and promptly canceled due to people overreacting with the "woe is me, they'll never fix Zerg" mentality.

For those who don't go to Battlenet, here are some quotes from Bashiok regarding the balance issue.

Bashiok
(Hopefully this doesn't read too harsh, it's been a tough Monday. <3 <3 <3)

Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't.

Our intent is also to not apply knee jerk fixes based on the first few weeks as understanding of the game and strategies are still in flux. The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats.

We see a lot of variation between the regions. Making a change for how NA players play may be completely ridiculous for how KR players play, and actually mess up a balance there. For instance 10 of their top 20 players are zerg. So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.

That said. There are balance changes coming. What everyone was seeing in beta with tons of quick balance changes are because it was in beta and we feel we can get away with throwing out a lot of 'we think this may help' type fixes. With a live environment we're not going to throw stuff out there unless we're pretty sure. We've played. We've looked at data. We've looked at each region. And then we act. Which isn't to say we may not be wrong from time to time, but it's a more measured approach than beta players may be used to or expecting.


Some Guy
Bashiok, is it possible that you could tell us if there are any improvements coming for zerg? I know things vary from region to region, but I think a lot of zerg players are generally frustrated from every region. I mean, even players like Check and Cool, very strong korean zergs, are beginning to give up on the swarm.



I'm not demanding specifics or anything like that. Just looking for a glimmer of hope that things will get better.

Bashiok
We're aware of the concerns.



That's about as far as I'm willing to go.


Bashiok
Show nested quote +
People were complaining but blizz responded that koreans were doing much better with zerg.






My intent was to dispel the notion that all players are created equal.



I don't think any one here is looking at 26% zerg and shaking hands and congratulating each other on a perfectly balanced game. Ultimately I don't think who plays what is very logical to point at and say what's OP or not, but people do it, and so I react in-kind when possible to tell them to politely take their seat.


There you have it. Blizzard is working on stuff, but nothing is solid enough that they want to mention it publicly.

26% of their player base picking Zerg is an issue to them. This doesn't mean Zerg is UP, but it does mean Zerg is less appealing, and it is in Blizzards best interest to make all races equally fun to play (balance is part of that).

Mentioning that Korea has quite a few top Zerg means that in its current state, Zerg is completely playable for 99% of SC2 players without any major problems, so this is not an issue that demands immediate fixes. All the more reason to take it slow and make the RIGHT change rather than a quick one.


I am writing this simply to let people know that Blizzard is looking at balance one way or another, please don't muck it up by crying that they're not fixing everything today.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
SpiDaH
Profile Joined March 2010
France198 Posts
August 17 2010 15:10 GMT
#2
Well, the game has only been out for a bunch of weeks now, Rome, or should I say broodwar, was not built in a day.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10989 Posts
August 17 2010 15:11 GMT
#3
Zerg is completely playable for 99%


Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.

On lower level the Macro mechanics make it way harder.
On high levels the little imbalances begin to show up and make it way harder.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:12:14
August 17 2010 15:11 GMT
#4
Zerg is UP...under polished.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
August 17 2010 15:11 GMT
#5
Glimmer of hope, yey
Icks
Profile Joined July 2009
France186 Posts
August 17 2010 15:12 GMT
#6
You may have missed this one about the time taken before fixing anything:

(Hopefully this doesn't read too harsh, it's been a tough Monday. <3 <3 <3)

Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't.

Our intent is also to not apply knee jerk fixes based on the first few weeks as understanding of the game and strategies are still in flux. The game is young, and we don't feel that it would have been helpful to progressing peoples understanding by throwing in tons of fixes based on flavor-of-the-week (or day, or hour) strats.

We see a lot of variation between the regions. Making a change for how NA players play may be completely ridiculous for how KR players play, and actually mess up a balance there. For instance 10 of their top 20 players are zerg. So that's one place where we have to be mindful and careful and attack balance issues with great prejudice.

That said. There are balance changes coming. What everyone was seeing in beta with tons of quick balance changes are because it was in beta and we feel we can get away with throwing out a lot of 'we think this may help' type fixes. With a live environment we're not going to throw stuff out there unless we're pretty sure. We've played. We've looked at data. We've looked at each region. And then we act. Which isn't to say we may not be wrong from time to time, but it's a more measured approach than beta players may be used to or expecting.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374942110?page=2#25
Read to learn.
duBstar
Profile Joined July 2010
United States57 Posts
August 17 2010 15:13 GMT
#7
On August 18 2010 00:10 SpiDaH wrote:
Well, the game has only been out for a bunch of weeks now, Rome, or should I say broodwar, was not built in a day.


Rome actually was though, real talk.


On a more serious note I believe that all balance changes that are made to the game will be WELL thought out and WELL tested. I am content playing the game as of now, and I know that when balance patches come out there will still be crying, but all we can do is wait and see what happens.
We are what we repeatedly do, therefore excellence is not an act but a habit.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
August 17 2010 15:13 GMT
#8

Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Cedstick
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada3336 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:17:35
August 17 2010 15:14 GMT
#9
On August 18 2010 00:11 Velr wrote:
Yes, its completly playable for 99%, but it's harder to play for 100% than Protoss or Terarn.

On lower level the Macro mechanics make it way harder.
[strike]On high levels the little imbalances begin to show up and make it way harder.[/strike]



Oh, so it's like Terran until C- in Brood War?

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over it? People still suck at this game, as seriously as they may take themselves (IdrA), and there is a lot of mapping-out that will occur as the game progresses.
"What does Rivington do when he's not commentating?" "Drool." ~ Categorist
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
August 17 2010 15:16 GMT
#10
He just said "they were aware of the concerns" not that they "were aware of the problem". He's just acknowledging that a lot of Zerg are complaining ^^

I do think Blizzard will patch eventually, they're just not rushing to conclusions.
I think esports is pretty nice.
RawrAnOcean
Profile Joined February 2006
United States359 Posts
August 17 2010 15:17 GMT
#11
What they should do is buff zerg to all hell to get people to start playing them...then roll back the buffs and hopefully people adapt.

I don't feel like I'm good enough to say if they are underpowered, but I do admit getting wins with Terran or Protoss is 2x easier leaving my 2x more energy to play more.
Jenslyn87
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark527 Posts
August 17 2010 15:17 GMT
#12
Pretty cool to see that they do communicate about this stuff Hope something will happen soon
Hmmm, I wonder what terran is doiAAAAARGH BANSHEEEEES
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
August 17 2010 15:17 GMT
#13
As far as I'm concerned the problem isn't so much that Zerg are underpowered as much as they are boring to play, with few available strategies.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2959 Posts
August 17 2010 15:19 GMT
#14
Sounds all reasonable and I agree with their approach of balance.

To be honest, if people start to flame Blizzard for these posts I gonna hang my faith in gamers.
WrathBringerReturns said: No no no. Sarcasm is detected in the voice. When this forum is riddled with stupidity, you think I can tell every post apart? Fair enough it was intended sarcastically, was it obvious? Of course not.
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:20:48
August 17 2010 15:19 GMT
#15
Using the ladder for statistics is a joke. Blizzard needs to hire oGs and prime for a week and have them play 1000, 2000, even 3000 games with eachother. And get their statistics from that. It's the tournaments which count, it's the mass custom games which count. Not the ladder games where players try new things, cheese, etc etc. Ladder games are usually en massed and players largely do not care about them. They either try to win immediately or try funky things. The balance issue is much more prominent in the tournament level and blizzard is, for the most part, ignoring this in favor of their botched statistics.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
SyyRaaaN
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden136 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:25:07
August 17 2010 15:20 GMT
#16
"Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."

Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.

On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
No Quote
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:23:20
August 17 2010 15:22 GMT
#17
Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.

Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Malgrif
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1095 Posts
August 17 2010 15:22 GMT
#18
ZERG TAKES TOO MUCH SKILL BOOHOO
has anyone ever tried to play terran in sc1? absolutely redonkulous
but anyways blizz has it bad, as all those wow guys on the forums expect something big with every patch. like a balance change every week, and the retarded thing is most of them arent even gold. they don't even play 1v1 they just jumped on the bandwagon/hatewagon which seems to be a pretty common theme these days.
for there to be pro there has to be noob.
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:24:19
August 17 2010 15:23 GMT
#19
On August 18 2010 00:13 Jermstuddog wrote:

Yeah, let me add that one, I thought I had it, re-wrote my OP several times because I didn't want to leave room for QQ.


its absolutely impossible these days to keep the QQ cursaders out. nice that you tried but you cant do it. they will instaspam evry single thread that is in ANY way related to zerg,balance,statistics,terran,a pro Z player etc.

id love if they would totally overbuff Z now just so all those idiots would shut up and realise that its not balance but their own lack of skill thats keeping em down.





i like blizzards approach. cause really, the issues are nowhere as bad as the QQcrusaders calim. the game is out for what? 3-4 weeks now? and kneejerk patches are the last thing we need.

i just hope blizzard realises that their horrible maps are the root of many problems and finally make some good BIG maps and edit out the problematic things in the current ones..
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
oxxo
Profile Joined February 2010
988 Posts
August 17 2010 15:23 GMT
#20
On August 18 2010 00:22 Integra wrote:
Zerg middle and late game is fine, the problem is early game.

Zerg is reactionary and need to build up it's echonomy during the early game while defending depending on what the Terran makes. Terran can easily conceal and tech in so many variations that it makes it hard for zerg to defend duing this period. The Terran doesn't even have to kill the zerg, just hurt it's echonomy growth.


Adding to this is there are alot of Zerg that are CHOOSING to sit on early game tech, compounding their own problems by staying with their weakest tech.
1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL
05:00
RO24 Group F
Cross vs Puma
Artosis vs Spine
ZZZero.O340
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 205
ProTech128
Ketroc 44
EmSc Tv 21
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 340
ggaemo 23
Terrorterran 4
LuMiX 1
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps2187
jkaem62
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox463
Mew2King59
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu603
Khaldor190
Other Games
summit1g8303
tarik_tv6243
Grubby2908
Liquid`RaSZi1956
singsing1669
FrodaN1383
PiGStarcraft368
QueenE116
NeuroSwarm48
Railgan30
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1057
gamesdonequick666
Counter-Strike
PGL95
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 21
EmSc2Tv 21
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 66
• Adnapsc2 6
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 29
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV609
League of Legends
• Nemesis2122
• Jankos2102
Other Games
• imaqtpie1110
• Shiphtur233
• tFFMrPink 16
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 9m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 13h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 15h
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
IPSL
5 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-06
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.