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On August 15 2010 06:02 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:58 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Top 10 Korean Players: 1 Random, 1 Protoss, 4 Zerg, 5 Terrans Protoss needs buff?  People need to calm down about balance. In every Blizzard RTS, there's been periods when one race was considered underpowered - only to become anything but with the next change in the meta-game. One or two small tweaks to Zerg maybe necessary, but if so Blizzard is going to take it slow - as they always do. I think the real problem here is Dimaga's relationship with his sponsor. Being the #1 Zerg should be enough, fame-wise, for his employer. But if that's not the case then perhaps Dimaga should seek other avenues for sponsorship since the current one seems to expect too much.
Agreed.
This is all just a big social problem, not a balance problem
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On August 15 2010 05:59 Backpack wrote:
IdrA is already one of, if not THE best. Buffing his race would be a little silly don't you think?
Zergs need to stop whining and start learning how to be good.
why buff zerg? just nerf t : D
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I feel for you Dimaga... As a fellow Zerg player I understand completely why you would be considering this, together with IdrA, Artosis and all of these great people, I must say that ZvT is horribly broken...
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On August 15 2010 05:55 D-Rose wrote:No they didn't. They crucified him for doing it the way he did it. It's like breaking up with your childhood sweetheart on national TV for 1 hour while all her friends/family were watching. People didn't particularly like that he teamed up with Bosh and Wade, but that was his choice and all the blame/crucifixion didn't originate from that.
![[image loading]](http://www.the-ghetto.org/Miscellaneous/lebron.jpg)
Sure this had a bit to do with it.
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I hope he doesn't switch.
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as one of the most influential zergs creating/showing power of banelings, this is sad
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isn't zerg dominating asia? well best of luck to him he is a really good player you can't deny that..
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So i've been reading the thread.
One guy says that Dimaga should look at the korean scene because he is D- compared to them and i would punch that guy in the face should i ever meet him. Dimaga got 2nd place in the world in the beta and he is still better than all the koreans currently playing SC2.
Another noob said that the zerg versus terran win ratio is balanced. NOT once you get really high on the ladder and/or get to play extremely good terran players in tournaments. The reason the win ratio is as it is because noobs make collosal mistakes all the time so race balance is less important. Once both players play as close the their race's full potential you can see the gap in ZvT.
Seriously all the terrans here saying that there's no imbalance think they are SIMPLY AWESOME players, just like Zergs thought in ZvP when roach was on 1 supply. But in truth terrans in diamond are getting way too much for too little skill.
Not to mention overall b.net statistics SHOULD NOT MATTER. The game should only be balanced in diamond or 500+ diamond because it will always be impossible to balance the game at all skills levels on all maps.
If any of you thought BW was balanced, think again. BW was mostly balanced by the maps (the easy to take naturals and the long rush distances). The maps in BW have wide open spaces unlike the trash we have to play on at the moment, like Kulas and other maps.
Moreover, up to B- level or so, Terran in BroodWar IS underpowered because its harder to play terran than protoss for example but once a progamer uses terran to its full potential the game becomes balanced again, or terran even has a slight advantage.
But don't think this will happen in SC2 with Zerg, because Dimaga / Idra is really AS GOOD AS IT GETS. The koreans ARE NOT better than these 2 players. This means that as the game progresses and both zergs and terrans learn more about the game, the imbalance will stay the same.
I honestly understand Dimaga for switching to terran.
I find it hilarious reading what Morrow has to say and it reminds me of Zergs in the early beta..." no the game is not imbalanced im just a super awesome player" and i can get 120 roaches very fast because i'm so damn good.
Mind you, this was against protoss, against terran, 120 roaches would actually be balanced !
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Terran is powerful because it is extremely weak (wait, what?). Huge advantages have to be created to cover up for huge weaknesses.
For example: unit production. T and Z got huge unit production improvements in SC2 through a combination of queens, chronoboost, and warp-in. MULEs are an economy boost, but they are not a production boost. The additional build-time of addons further drags down unit production times. To combat this, T has been given lots of units that shut down unit spam from other races, such as tanks with huge splash and super-powerful, self-healing bioballs, which everyone thinks is unfair.
For example: air units and air counters. There are two ground answers to air units: marines and thors, both of which move soooo sllllooooowwww. The viking is a terrible anti-air unit. It's certainly *cost-effective*, but due to T's unit production problems this is less of an advantage than one might imagine. To offset this, viks have been given ginourmous range, which everything thinks is unfair. Thors have been given gunourmous range and splash, which everything thinks is unfair.
Unfortunately, Blizzard has backed themselves into a corner here. Remove any of the "unfair" advantages and the weaknesses are exposed and T is suddenly a rancid, useless race. I think this is why it's taking them so long to come out with a fix. There is no "small change" that will fix things - you need a series of interrelated, interdependent, very major fixes.
Blizzard also has another problem - the expansions. In addition to planning for balance NOW, they have to leave spaces open for new units later. Right now we might be feeling the effects of those "empty spaces," especially with regard to Zerg.
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On August 15 2010 05:38 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:34 purerythem wrote:On August 15 2010 05:24 iEchoic wrote:
Agreed, I come from AoE and the community is so much more mature than this one. The balance problems were far worse in AoE but the good players who played the weaker races took it as a creative challenge. On SC2 the good players take it as an opportunity to find excuses for themselves. It really is disappointing and a huge turn off from this game. I think the people who say SC has the greatest community are either wrong or I just am not seeing it. except this isn't AoE, it's sc2, the follow up to the worlds most popular, successful, and hardcore rts game in history. I don't see how that excuses the poor sportsmanship and lack of competitive spirit from the community. The NBA is far more popular and successful but the athletes don't make excuses for themselves. Kobe Bryant didn't blame his finger injury for losing a single time throughout the season or the postseason. If our SC2 players were NBA stars they'd be blaming the refs or injuries after every single game. Switching races because you think things are difficult isn't good sportsmanship. It's pathetic, uncompetitive, and weak-willed.
That is the most stupid comparison i have ever heard. Basketball is a perfectly balanced game as there is 1 ball and 2 of the same baskets with the same 5 players. It's symetrical, while a game like starcraft is assymetrical. You could compare NBA to playing Zerg in Starcraft 2 by saying you're playing 4v5 or everyones under 6 feet for your certain team. I bet you would see NBA stars wanting to switch teams or have BALANCE! then~
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On August 15 2010 06:03 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 06:02 Azarkon wrote:On August 15 2010 05:58 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Top 10 Korean Players: 1 Random, 1 Protoss, 4 Zerg, 5 Terrans Protoss needs buff? People need to calm down about balance. In every Blizzard RTS, there's been periods when one race was considered underpowered - only to become anything but with the next change in the meta-game. One or two small tweaks to Zerg maybe necessary, but if so Blizzard is going to take it slow - as they always do. I think the real problem here is Dimaga's relationship with his sponsor. Being the #1 Zerg should be enough, fame-wise, for his employer. But if that's not the case then perhaps Dimaga should seek other avenues for sponsorship since the current one seems to expect too much. Agreed. This is all just a big social problem, not a balance problem
Yet another person who has no idea what "meta-game" is. Seriously, TL should ban everyone that keeps using the word "metagame". I would love to punch someone in the face just after they talk to me about meta-game without knowing what it actually is.
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On August 15 2010 06:13 KenShi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:38 iEchoic wrote:On August 15 2010 05:34 purerythem wrote:On August 15 2010 05:24 iEchoic wrote:
Agreed, I come from AoE and the community is so much more mature than this one. The balance problems were far worse in AoE but the good players who played the weaker races took it as a creative challenge. On SC2 the good players take it as an opportunity to find excuses for themselves. It really is disappointing and a huge turn off from this game. I think the people who say SC has the greatest community are either wrong or I just am not seeing it. except this isn't AoE, it's sc2, the follow up to the worlds most popular, successful, and hardcore rts game in history. I don't see how that excuses the poor sportsmanship and lack of competitive spirit from the community. The NBA is far more popular and successful but the athletes don't make excuses for themselves. Kobe Bryant didn't blame his finger injury for losing a single time throughout the season or the postseason. If our SC2 players were NBA stars they'd be blaming the refs or injuries after every single game. Switching races because you think things are difficult isn't good sportsmanship. It's pathetic, uncompetitive, and weak-willed. That is the most stupid comparison i have ever heard. Basketball is a perfectly balanced game as there is 1 ball and 2 of the same baskets with the same 5 players. It's symetrical, while a game like starcraft is assymetrical. You could compare NBA to playing Zerg in Starcraft 2 by saying you're playing 4v5 or everyones under 6 feet for your certain team. I bet you would see NBA stars wanting to switch teams or have BALANCE! then~
You can tweak the rules to favor certain players with different playstyles. The NBA currently caters to slashing guards.
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On August 15 2010 05:43 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:27 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2010 05:21 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I thought this was the forum where people play the hell out of Starcraft and render it a science? Right now, I just see a bunch of people complaining about a matchup where no Zergs play for Contaminate, Nydus Worms, and Burrow in a phase of the game's competitive history where the raw mechanical ability of players is still very weak.
The game is two weeks into its retail phase. It'd be one thing to spent the next year exhausting every strategy and giving up. It's another to dismiss your available options because they "don't appear to work". I completely agree. It's hard to be creative with Zerg but I think players were spoiled with 1 supply roaches 1a2a3a to victory and still have not gotten past that nerf and tried to use different strategies. I love watching Madfrog and TLO (when he plays Zerg) play. Idra makes it work but honestly it's just because he's way better than most of the other players. Yes the matchup favors Terran but trying a strategy that you've lost with over and over again is not going to fix that unless you have better micro and macro than your opponent. Take Warcraft III. Ensnare was considered useless. Nobody used it. What happened? People realized a free-to-use immobilization ability may be a good thing when units are at a premium. The Blademaster was also considered useless. High damage? Who cares? A-click, focus fire him, goodbye. The Blademaster "sucked". Then he got two buffs. One removed the collision size on Wind Walk (so you can't surround invisible Blademasters) and another increased the damage of Wind Walk. These occurred in 2004. Nothing changed. The Blademaster still "sucked". Then people realized: "Hey, an unkillable, fast-moving hero may be great for playing map control!" And with the help of Ensnare, Orcs turned into the dominant Warcraft III race...in 2007. Like everyone else, Humans whined. But guess what? They tried new abilities. The Bloodmage. Also "useless". Banish? Useless. Siphon Mana? Useless. Except...Banish the Blademaster...Siphon Mana the Shadow Hunter...harass with Flamestrike...wow, the Bloodmage is a viable first choice against Orcs! And how does a Bloodmage get into an Orc base without getting gunned down? Exploiting Orc's lack of detection with a spell called Invisibility...another "useless" spell. None of this occurred overnight, and none of it occurred because the Warcraft III community was rewarded with a balance patch for their complaints. Players got better, they exhausted the game's limits, they experimented. And quite frankly, I expect better from a lot of people on this board. It's been two weeks. Experiment, exhaust, get better. And this is not a reflection on my ability as a player. I'm far from the best here. But I don't blame anyone but myself for those losses. Yeah, Dimaga has a financial imperative to get the best results. But he screwed himself over the moment he said "I can't win unless I play race X". To someone like me, that tells me that he has no confidence in his ability to win. That is very difficult baggage to tote at the highest level of play.
Great post. That said, I think some (minor) changes need to be implemented. As well as new maps.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:24 iEchoic wrote:
Agreed, I come from AoE and the community is so much more mature than this one. The balance problems were far worse in AoE but the good players who played the weaker races took it as a creative challenge. On SC2 the good players take it as an opportunity to find excuses for themselves. It really is disappointing and a huge turn off from this game. I think the people who say SC has the greatest community are either wrong or I just am not seeing it.
Dude, when was the last time you have seen an AoE 2 progamer? Or a $500,000 tourney for that matter? Of course if you have got nothing to lose enjoying your "creative challenge" is fun, but when you are someone who makes a living off this game, it is kind of different, isn't it?
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if he does switch races, im sure gonna miss his beautiful baneling busts
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On August 15 2010 06:03 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 06:02 Azarkon wrote:On August 15 2010 05:58 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Top 10 Korean Players: 1 Random, 1 Protoss, 4 Zerg, 5 Terrans Protoss needs buff? People need to calm down about balance. In every Blizzard RTS, there's been periods when one race was considered underpowered - only to become anything but with the next change in the meta-game. One or two small tweaks to Zerg maybe necessary, but if so Blizzard is going to take it slow - as they always do. I think the real problem here is Dimaga's relationship with his sponsor. Being the #1 Zerg should be enough, fame-wise, for his employer. But if that's not the case then perhaps Dimaga should seek other avenues for sponsorship since the current one seems to expect too much. Agreed. This is all just a big social problem, not a balance problem
Except that Undead still suck in WC3 (8 years already). Many pro-undeads retired because of the weakness of their race. Grubby Sky Moon are still in the game.
Blizzard promised a good balance patch for wc3, I wish they change something about undeads.
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i am with you dimagaaaaaaaa , i am zerg player , terran is completely imbalanced!
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This discussion always makes me checking two things:
1) How does it look in other areas of the world?
2) How many tactics do I see of players of the respective race, how much do they actually try?
Checking 1) revealed to me that Korea, once again, has a nice balance in races. As they already were "faster" than europe in balance changes last time (when EU terrans were desperate while Koreans said Terran was a strong race and soon after that, Terran became strong in EU as well), I consider that information valuable.
Looking at 2) of course depends on my experience, but I see Zerg not varying alot. For example they easily give up on things like mutalisk harass, only very very very rarely spend ressources on overlord drop upgrade and, in general, have given up alot on pressuring their opponents. They play a certain standard which they think was stable but don't experiment alot, especially not with pressure play.
I think it's the same as with Terran back then for Zerg. It requires a mix of opening their minds to new tactics and gaining more experience on how to counter enemy tactics or force them to react instead of letting the opponent set the pace.
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Has there been a Zerg that switched to Terran and found success? Some Koreans switched, like CezannePrime (  ToSky ), to Terran. After a month or so, they've basically all switched back. I think oGs.Gon is the only one who hasn't switched back and is having moderate success. He hasn't won anything, but he has a solid ranking.
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On August 15 2010 06:12 decemvrie wrote:
So i've been reading the thread.
One guy says that Dimaga should look at the korean scene because he is D- compared to them and i would punch that guy in the face should i ever meet him. Dimaga got 2nd place in the world in the beta and he is still better than all the koreans currently playing SC2.
Another noob said that the zerg versus terran win ratio is balanced. NOT once you get really high on the ladder and/or get to play extremely good terran players in tournaments. The reason the win ratio is as it is because noobs make collosal mistakes all the time so race balance is less important. Once both players play as close the their race's full potential you can see the gap in ZvT.
But don't think this will happen in SC2 with Zerg, because Dimaga / Idra is really AS GOOD AS IT GETS. The koreans ARE NOT better than these 2 players. This means that as the game progresses and both zergs and terrans learn more about the game, the imbalance will stay the same.
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Quoted parts I would doubt.
First off, Dimaga is good. Really good. Better than you, me, and every single person in this site save a few. But I would highly doubt Dimaga is the best foreigner, or zerg, and definitely not better than top Korean pros. Tester would 5-0 him in a Bo11(Dimaga would quit because Tester just slaughtered him.)
Exaggerating of course, Dimaga is amazing and I love his style. But
1.which tournament did he get "2nd place in the world." Cause I would say the KOTB tournament would beg to differ.
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EPT
