EPTTvZ Balance Suggestions - Page 40
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cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
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ellep200
Sweden24 Posts
Also their unit composition possibilities are just insane, straight up. Consider hellions + siege tanks + thors. Three splash damage units that do solid damage against pretty much any unit composition that you can throw at it without any reason for the terran to tweak his army composition. Timing push this at e.g. a Z. If the Z chose the wrong tech pattern he might aswell just quit out of the game. Or the marauder/marine/tank/viking. Marauders and marines. Tier one units that deal MASSIVE amounts of damage when stim pack is upgraded for 100/100. As if this was not enough, you can also upgrade the marines' hit points and give the marauders' a slow. (Fun fact: a 200/200 marauder army with no upgrades will kill any 200/200 army of gateway units at the same tier). All you need these for are to wait by your tanks since they do FIFTY damage at a range of 13. When the opponent throws in all he's got in some kind of desperate manouvre trying to rescue what's left of his base these will do the clean-up job. If the enemy brings air units that's fine, since you have Vikings with a range of 9, dealing 20 damage per shot (28 vs. armored), effectively making them the game's airborne siege tank. Also your marines are naturally VERY good against air since their DPS is huge. Or why not just MMM? Load your entire army up into your healing units, go to your enemy's base and snipe whatever you want in a matter of milliseconds. Load up again and float away to safety. Or the banshee. A flying unit used the same way as Void Rays and Mutalisk. Sure, they can't shoot air. But hey, you can always research stealth for it! Sure, people with influence on others like Day[9] will say that "the terran army is so slow" and "that you should attack somewhere else". The problem is that people generally don't have 1200 effective APM to do drops at 12 different locations at the same time, while expanding, making units and harass. I intended to write this in a thread that got closed before I could. Just wanted to share my point of view and blow off some steam. | ||
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ellep200
Sweden24 Posts
On August 07 2010 02:10 cr4ckshot wrote: ZvT is not broken. It's just that people still do the same strats/tactics over and over again without much success. They keep trying to plug a square into a round hole. Instead of A-moving your hydras into siege tanks, why don't you use nydus worms and drops to force the terran to move out of his fortified position? How is it fair that Terran can train an army that you can't beat? | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On August 07 2010 02:08 sigma47 wrote: In terms of the zerg macro mechanic... Why not make Spawn Larva a spell similar to Spawn Creep Tumor? The Queen would lay a egg on the creep that creates the larvas after about 5 seconds. Idra said that it's hard (impossible) to perfectly use up the energy on queens and i think this would adress this problem. This spell could be restricted to be casted within a certain radius around the hachtery or on every single bit of creep (of course without any restrictions you might want to cut the spawned larvas to maybe 3). that wouldnt really matter, the problem is establishing enough of an economy to use the larvae you have | ||
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Prae
Belgium77 Posts
On August 07 2010 02:13 ellep200 wrote: How is it fair that Terran can train an army that you can't beat? sorry you didn't mention its an army that can't move & is standing still  | ||
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ellep200
Sweden24 Posts
On August 07 2010 02:17 Prae wrote: sorry you didn't mention its an army that can't move & is standing still It's not an army that can't move and is standing still. It's an army that progresses as fast as siege tanks can unsiege, move a few squares and then re-siege. On a map like Steppes of War there is, ultimately, little you can do to avoid colission. | ||
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Quark
5 Posts
I don't know. It feels like a zerg could just create a cache of larva and then grossly outproduce his opponents in the mid and late game. Given that larva are so hard to kill.... I like the idea but I think that these spawned larva should be on a timer, that is, if you could lay multiple eggs at once with saved up energy, but those larva need to be spent within a minute of hatching, etc. Again I'm too nub to have anything but vague feelings about this. | ||
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tampix
France20 Posts
Terran: 235 seconds (rax+fac+star+fusion) Protoss: 290 seconds (pylon+gate+cyber+twilight+dark shrine (DT is the longest thing to tech to, surprisingly)) Zerg: 425 seconds (pool+lair+infest pit+hive+transport) from Zerg Observations comparing it with bw shows some imbalances there too (that may be one the problems ?) On August 07 2010 02:10 cr4ckshot wrote: ZvT is not broken. It's just that people still do the same strats/tactics over and over again without much success. They keep trying to plug a square into a round hole. Instead of A-moving your hydras into siege tanks, why don't you use nydus worms and drops to force the terran to move out of his fortified position? yeah right IdrA, decemvre, Lalush and others might just be some epic fail noobs that a-move 200/200 hydra every time in TvZ obvious troll is obvious ? | ||
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wizerd
United States26 Posts
also, why not be able to have a queen spawn larva on any creep tumor, once? | ||
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Pandain
United States12985 Posts
What if they give the queen like a two second stun spell. Could help deal with reapers and helions. But the final thing would be micro on both sides. And you'd have to react quick since it's only stunning for a few seconds. Don't know how much the spell should cost thoug.. Any thoughts? | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On August 07 2010 00:49 AdonaiMSRT wrote: Did some more math, Zerg definitely got the short end of the stick in SC2. The same formulas applied in SC1: T: 330 (rax+fac+star+science+phys lab) P: 280 (pylon+gate+cyber+stargate+fleet) Z: 520 (pool+lair+Q nest+hive+ventral) If the zerg time was scaled down in proportion to the new terran tech time, the 425 number two posts up should actually be 370, or 340 if you discount transport research (520/330 *235 =370 or 480/330 *235 =340, subtracted 40 numerator for the difference b/w ventral and greater spire). Relatively speaking, the Zerg must hold out much longer than they used to against the other two races before reaching maximum tech. I always thought that the only problem of Zerg in any matchup was that they're just teching waaaayyyy too slow. If you could actually get some Ultras out when the Terran does his T3 timing push it would be reasonably easy to counter these strats. It would also be way easier to defend those stupid Protoss 1-base-5gate cheeses if you could get to hydras just a little faster. At the moment it's basically always a fight of getting the perfect amount of spine crawlers out and a few lings to delay his push. the problem is that the other races have many units available with one building, while we have buildings for each specific unit. and even then, we have to tech our main building (hatch/hive) just to enable these buildings. imo the building time of these should be made shorter to compensate. Also, the ling speed upgrade needs way too long imo. We have to go special gas->pool builds before expanding just to be able to defend against reapers/hellions in time. | ||
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sigma47
Germany11 Posts
On August 07 2010 02:26 Quark wrote: Being able to put it down on creep anywhere would shake up a lot of balance, I think. It's a relatively risk-free way of having a proxy production (especially midgame where creep tumors should be everywhere and overlords can lay creep). I don't know. It feels like a zerg could just create a cache of larva and then grossly outproduce his opponents in the mid and late game. Given that larva are so hard to kill.... I like the idea but I think that these spawned larva should be on a timer, that is, if you could lay multiple eggs at once with saved up energy, but those larva need to be spent within a minute of hatching, etc. Again I'm too nub to have anything but vague feelings about this. I also thought whether this would drift into the imba section but basicaly it would be compareable to toss warp in pylons. You have to bring your queen to spawn the egg and get some creep over there. Though zerg units on creep have a fast movementspeed this way of proxy larva wouldn't be as effective as a warp in pylon (regarding the fact that zerg units have to hatch for a much longer time then warped in toss units). On August 07 2010 02:16 IdrA wrote: that wouldnt really matter, the problem is establishing enough of an economy to use the larvae you have if thats the case then you would have to change up something concerning the drones (or the macro mechanic in total... or something i can't come up with) f.e. their cost, buildtime, ressource gathering time, ressource gathering amount | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
Most notably missing from Zerg: -Decent speed while burrowed for roaches -attacking while burrowed (rip lurker) -Cliff walking -Ground units with a range greater than 3 other than the hydralisk (which is supposed to be an anti-air unit) -cheap massable units that cost 1 food - ironically terran and protoss have more 1 food units than zerg (probe, observer, marine, reaper, scv vs just drone) | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:16 Phrost wrote: I think my biggest problem with playing zerg is all the cutesy things that they COULD have done were nerfed or are too expensive to do early enough to force another player to respond. Many terran units and/or compositions force a zerg to go a specific tech tree or risk losing. I can't really say the same for anything that the zerg can do because most of the terran buildings and units are so flexible. Most notably missing from Zerg: -Decent speed while burrowed for roaches -attacking while burrowed (rip lurker) -Cliff walking -Ground units with a range greater than 3 other than the hydralisk (which is supposed to be an anti-air unit) -cheap massable units that cost 1 food - ironically terran and protoss have more 1 food units than zerg (probe, observer, marine, reaper, scv vs just drone) Well to be fair it should be massable units that cost <= 1 food and the zerg technically does win that (baneling, zergling, drone) but still there's no 1 pop well rounded unit like the marine which does make them feel less swarm-like as mid/late game the majority of your army is made up of 2 food or greater units. Anyways, and more importantly, this is really the problem on Zerg's end and more people need to be talking about and pushing this rather than some of the crazy anti-unit arguments that people come up with. All of zerg's potential cute stuff is too slow, too expensive, and is too risky of an investment. The only other problem with zerg might be the lack of a defensive or 'hero hold mode' unit like the other races, but that could easily be made a stylistic choice if the zerg's cute harassment stuff is stronger. | ||
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Psykhe
39 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:16 Phrost wrote:-cheap massable units that cost 1 food - ironically terran and protoss have more 1 food units than zerg (probe, observer, marine, reaper, scv vs just drone) Uh.. What? The only massable unit there is the marine. And Zergling is very massable up to a certain extend (certainably more massable than observer and reaper :p) | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
watch silver stomp idra the lt game silver just wins anyone could play z there. Then the other game he times everything pretty well and idra has no chance again. T has more army that is stronger while easily expanding and turreting up. If there were a good guide on how to mech a zerg i bet t would be absurdly favored in the matchup | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On August 04 2010 01:56 Lucius2 wrote: since tanks dont overshoot anymore not that effective as u might think.... Tanks don't overkill anymore. I'd rather save that energy and fungal growth the lot when you unsiege and move out. It'll deal more dmg AND make u unable to move. | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:33 Ruthless wrote: The fact this game is so new and the player base so insistent on being creative is why t is not doing better. Every game i play vs t i just hope they dont do mech appropriately and abuse drops on cliffs i cannot touch. And more often than not im surprised to see t doing all sorts of stupid things when they could just mech correctly and win. The t players who mech decently every game i am tempted to just say gg vs right when the game starts. watch silver stomp idra the lt game silver just wins anyone could play z there. Then the other game he times everything pretty well and idra has no chance again. T has more army that is stronger while easily expanding and turreting up. If there were a good guide on how to mech a zerg i bet t would be absurdly favored in the matchup The fact this game is so new and the player base so insistent on being uncreative is why z is not doing better. Every game i play vs z i just hope they dont macro appropriately and abuse drops on mains i have to run back for. And more often than not im surprised to see z doing all sorts of stupid things when they could just macro correctly and win. The z players who macro decently every game i am tempted to just say gg vs right when the game starts. see what i did there? sure are a lot of ways to say a lot without saying anything aren't there? | ||
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MuTT
United States398 Posts
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