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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
Thanks for twisting that though, this is just a discussion i am not going to spend hours writting and citing sources for a post that wont result in any change :p Furthermore i was purposefully vague so people wouldnt pick apart the details of what i said was broken. The post is about properly played t mech style not a specific build | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
zvt clearly not imbalanced! | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:38 me_viet wrote: Tanks don't overkill anymore. I'd rather save that energy and fungal growth the lot when you unsiege and move out. It'll deal more dmg AND make u unable to move. Anyone paying attention will just siege up (why not the tanks can't move anyways) and wait it out. ITs are nice even without overkill. Each egg takes 3 tank blasts to kill before any upgrades (2 at +1 or more vehicle weapons). The bigger problem I have with that strategy is usually the marines/whatever else will end up bursting down the egg before enough tanks fire to really do anything. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote: your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads. make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:39 mahnini wrote: The fact this game is so new and the player base so insistent on being uncreative is why z is not doing better. Every game i play vs z i just hope they dont macro appropriately and abuse drops on mains i have to run back for. And more often than not im surprised to see z doing all sorts of stupid things when they could just macro correctly and win. The z players who macro decently every game i am tempted to just say gg vs right when the game starts. see what i did there? sure are a lot of ways to say a lot without saying anything aren't there? dropping mains is expensive and time consuming for zerg. if you were to 1/2 base to get 300/300 for speed+transport as fast as possible, i dont know what ud be loading into those transports besides lings. By the time zerg gets everything they need to drop, terran already has an army that either could have been used against u by then, or on its way. In the odd time you can drop into his main and he hasnt moved out that early, hes still on one base and has everything inside of it. good luck with doing enough damage.. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:18 junemermaid wrote: Remove splash damage from Thor = TvZ is fixed or reduce their ground damage because they do a crap load. at least that way going mutas to encourage building of thors will allow zerg ground to be more effective. the way it is now thors pretty much rape anything but lings, and with hellions and rines lings get melted anyways before they can touch a thor. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure. that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good. clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote: i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure. that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good. clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since tvz early game imba, tvz mid game and late game is fine. I wouldnt say mid/late game is 'fine', but fixing the early game would better align the timings/feel of mid/late game to where they should be. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:26 tacrats wrote: I wouldnt say mid/late game is 'fine', but fixing the early game would better align the timings/feel of mid/late game to where they should be. right, i mean you will never have 50-50 balance, but zerg that survive early harassment well and get his 3rd quickly, kinda scary thoughts really, quick tech to T3 units would be no problem imho. we would see though | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote: i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. reason clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. rebuttal to common argument reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure. intended impact and WHY that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good. reasoning whether or not you agree with the points made in the post. this is a good example of how to go about this and not do what 90% of this thread did. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote: i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure. that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good. clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work, and by doing so are putting themselves at a huge disadvantage. The early game is when you want to start busting the Terran's balls, not mid / late game when he has +2 vehicle attack and a critical mass of siege tanks. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote: Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there).. Sorry i dont think you know what you are talking about. Early aggression by zerg instead of playing passive? Doesnt really work against terran. Unless he doesnt wall in. Burrowed roaches cost a LOT and take a long time to get to meerly "harass" with to slow down terran. By the time you get burrowed roaches, with or without movement speed, hes going to have a pretty decent army that will rip the roaches apart. When you try to go fast muta and they scan your fast lair with 2 gas and no expo they are just going to put turrets up. What else can they be thinking except mutalisk? And if you get burrowed roaches instead, they would have turrets in their base so i dont see how your burrowed roaches are going to do anything. On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote: I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. 1 base to slow down terran mech push? lol? What? ok so even if you do manage to slow it down, what happens? your on one base and get crushed anyways. nydus worms rarely work, and burrow roach move is a gimmick. he doesnt get tunneling claws or one base because he knows it doesnt work and if it does, its rare and wont happen again. | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:46 tacrats wrote: Sorry i dont think you know what you are talking about. Early aggression by zerg instead of playing passive? Doesnt really work against terran. Unless he doesnt wall in. Burrowed roaches cost a LOT and take a long time to get to meerly "harass" with to slow down terran. By the time you get burrowed roaches, with or without movement speed, hes going to have a pretty decent army that will rip the roaches apart. When you try to go fast muta and they scan your fast lair with 2 gas and no expo they are just going to put turrets up. What else can they be thinking except mutalisk? And if you get burrowed roaches instead, they would have turrets in their base so i dont see how your burrowed roaches are going to do anything. Don't knock it till you try it. If Terran is going for mech, they generally don't have a large force around the 8 minute mark, so the roaches actually do pretty well. If he's going MMM, then you would have a larger amount of Marauders to deal with, but you can cause a lot of damage if he decides to move out with his units. You don't even have to get in his base to do damage. You can camp outside his expansion with burrow. He's gonna be wasting a lot of money on turrets, positioning, or scanning to get his expansion up. Or maybe make marauders he doesn't want to make instead of tanks + thors. Burrowed roaches are not gimmicky. You start expanding as soon as you push out with the roaches. It's just a delayed expansion, that is all. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote: Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or (burrowed) roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras  . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:51 junemermaid wrote: Don't knock it till you try it. If Terran is going for mech, they generally don't have a large force around the 8 minute mark, so the roaches actually do pretty well. If he's going MMM, then you would have a larger amount of Marauders to deal with, but you can cause a lot of damage if he decides to move out with his units. You don't even have to get in his base to do damage. You can camp outside his expansion with burrow. He's gonna be wasting a lot of money on turrets, positioning, or scanning to get his expansion up. Or maybe make marauders he doesn't want to make instead of tanks + thors. K well while your sitting outside his base giggling with your borrowed roaches burrowed hes getting starport with a reactor to drop your main. Not to mention if he sees you on 1 base with 1 tech structure (roaches) im sure he will be more than happy to make more mauraders, even tho he 'wanted' to get tanks and thors. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote: Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units.So basically what you're saying is zerg FE is not viable because they become prone to harassment, and Zerg 1 base is not viable because Terran just prepares for it without contesting. So.......? What the hell? You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1. Again, I'm just tossing out what has worked for me in the beta. I rarely see this happen in tournaments. I don't know why. I just see the same strats over and over from the zergs and they keep losing the same way, again and again. Maybe they've tried out these strats in custom games, but I haven't seen any of them comment on it. | ||
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