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On August 07 2010 04:57 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote:
i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure.
that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good.
clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras  . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1.
1 turret at your front door or expansion will shut down your burrowed roaches. I have no idea what you are talking about any more. Reaver drop in sc1? wtf? How does that compare?
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On August 07 2010 04:51 Ruthless wrote:
Your very condesending I am well capable of doing that but I do not feel I have a solution that is satisfactory to everyone. There is nothing wrong with saying how i feel about the matchup after playing it and discussing with friends.
come on man. don't make a post like this
On August 07 2010 03:33 Ruthless wrote:
The fact this game is so new and the player base so insistent on being creative is why t is not doing better. Every game i play vs t i just hope they dont do mech appropriately and abuse drops on cliffs i cannot touch. And more often than not im surprised to see t doing all sorts of stupid things when they could just mech correctly and win. The t players who mech decently every game i am tempted to just say gg vs right when the game starts.
watch silver stomp idra the lt game silver just wins anyone could play z there. Then the other game he times everything pretty well and idra has no chance again. T has more army that is stronger while easily expanding and turreting up.
If there were a good guide on how to mech a zerg i bet t would be absurdly favored in the matchup
and then get all defensive when someone calls you out on it.
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On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance.
http://sc2ranks.com/stats
Of all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg
Diamond league as a whole, worldwide: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg.
LOOK at that gigantic gap. Zergs are perhaps OVER-represented in diamond, and terrans are perhaps UNDER-represented in diamond in Korea. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data.
However, alternatively, look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America.
Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected.
Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution.
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On August 07 2010 04:57 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote:
i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure.
that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good.
clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. So basically what you're saying is zerg FE is not viable because they become prone to harassment, and Zerg 1 base is not viable because Terran just prepares for it without contesting. So.......? What the hell? You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1. Again, I'm just tossing out what has worked for me in the beta. I rarely see this happen in tournaments. I don't know why. I just see the same strats over and over from the zergs and they keep losing the same way, again and again. Maybe they've tried out these strats in custom games, but I haven't seen any of them comment on it.
well i haven't had any good zerg try it on me but what i think is...all you need is to get fast thor and get 3 turrets at each base and 1 at the front for burrowed roaches and a bunker in front as well, then you're pretty safe. repaired turrets laugh at mutas tbh. as i said, i haven't had a good zerg try it on me though..
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The only map I've seen 1 base zerg play work well on is delta quad. This is because you can take out the rocks on your bdoor expo and actually expo much faster than you'd usually be able to safely since you have a ramp for 2 expos. Usually you have to wait for your mutas or roaches to be on the aggression to expand, but you can do it earlier on that map safely.
For all other intents and purposes it's cheese and puts you really behind. You just don't have enough gas or larva on 1 base to transition. It's very very risky.
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On August 07 2010 05:00 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:57 junemermaid wrote:On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote:
i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure.
that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good.
clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1. 1 turret at your front door or expansion will shut down your burrowed roaches. I have no idea what you are talking about any more. Reaver drop in sc1? wtf? How does that compare?
They are both harassing strategies that are attenuated by turrets. That's how they compare.
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On August 07 2010 05:01 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. http://sc2ranks.com/statsOf all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg Diamond league as a whole: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg. LOOK at that gigantic gap. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data. Look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America. Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected. Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution.
That just means that worse players switched or the really good players stuck with zerg and ended up in diamond. AKA more good zergs than bad zergs.
Still shows there arnt at much Z in the top 50.
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On August 07 2010 05:01 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:57 junemermaid wrote:On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote:
i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure.
that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good.
clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. So basically what you're saying is zerg FE is not viable because they become prone to harassment, and Zerg 1 base is not viable because Terran just prepares for it without contesting. So.......? What the hell? You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1. Again, I'm just tossing out what has worked for me in the beta. I rarely see this happen in tournaments. I don't know why. I just see the same strats over and over from the zergs and they keep losing the same way, again and again. Maybe they've tried out these strats in custom games, but I haven't seen any of them comment on it. well i haven't had any good zerg try it on me but what i think is...all you need is to get fast thor and get 3 turrets at each base and 1 at the front for burrowed roaches and a bunker in front as well, then you're pretty safe. repaired turrets laugh at mutas tbh. as i said, i haven't had a good zerg try it on me though..
Yeah, I haven't tried out the one base muta play. It does sound weak, but its better than doing a build that basically makes zerg lose 100% of the time against a Terran who knows what they are doing.
I do know the roaches do pretty well to contain Terran regardless of what he is doing. Bane-lings + roaches + overseer lets you have full knowledge of what is going on in the Terran's base. He's going to have to adjust his play accordingly in order to hold the expansion, and more deviations from a Terran's comfort zone would give zerg a better chance at breaking mech.
Again, it'd be nice to get some input from Idra or any other prominent zerg player if he has actually tested this out at some point to give a decent comment on it.
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On August 07 2010 05:02 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:00 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 04:57 junemermaid wrote:On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote:
i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure.
that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good.
clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1. 1 turret at your front door or expansion will shut down your burrowed roaches. I have no idea what you are talking about any more. Reaver drop in sc1? wtf? How does that compare? They are both harassing strategies that are attenuated by turrets. That's how they compare.
they are not similar harassing strategies though. thus comparing is irrelevant.
On August 07 2010 05:06 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:01 PredY wrote:On August 07 2010 04:57 junemermaid wrote:On August 07 2010 04:52 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2010 04:39 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 04:24 PredY wrote:
i think people are exagerating about tvz imbalance, wanting to nerf 32353124 things. it's much simpler IMO
as morrow stated (great post mate) terrans have TOO many options early game which often leads into killing a lot of drones and delaying expo and tech. clearly you don't want to kill harassment but make it easier for zerg to prepare and respond, so the solution would be prolonging baracks build time (or tech lab buildtime) - would have to balance gateway build time though. reapers, hellions, banshees, bunker rushes, EVERYTHING comes later, giving zergs time to prepare and respond. also better MAPS would be helpfull, expansions with huge free space around aren't the best option for zerg for sure.
that way zergs can survive early game better and power up, since with proper (!!!!!) unit combo, drops and nyduses, zerg midgate and lategame is good.
clearly this would be a good start for balancing tvz, since zvt early game is imba, zvt mid game and late game is fine. Meh, I think the biggest problem with ZvT right now is that zerg players are intentionally letting the terran player be the harasser. When zerg's are playing macro intensive style (i.e. powering drones and securing an expansion) without really moving out of their base & waiting for the terran to come to them, they are asking for this shitstorm of amazing units to get released on them. I think if zerg players start experimenting with fast lair + mutalisks / burrowed roaches to harass and go from there into an expansion, a lot of the Terran options would be taken away. A fast lair lets you hide your tech away from your base as well, so you can utterly confuse the terran (lay down creep with an off-base overlord & build your tech there). Zerg players just grab a lair and then immediately toss down the hydralisk den. The way I see it, the hydralisk doesn't really do you much that early. It doesn't provide map control, and you're limited by how far your creep has spread. The hydra is slow as hell off creep, so you've gained really NOTHING from tossing the hydra-den down. I mean, look at what terran players are doing to Zerg players, and you see a quick pattern 1) fast vikings ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 2) fast hellions ----> mech. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 3) fast reaper ----> mech or bio. start with a harass strategy, contain the zerg, and proceed to get mech 4) Thor drop harass ----> mech. 5) fast banshee ----> mech or bio. you get the idea. In all these Terran styles of play, it is VERY easy for the Terran to secure an expansion cuz the Zerg isn't a goddamn threat. They can't move out; they're trying to make a macro game work. Zerg players are still trying to make a macro-style game work when its clearly NOT how TvZ is supposed to be played. I've had a LOT of success with burrow (bane-lings, lings, roaches) in platinum / diamond league. If you can get 4-5 roaches into the Terran's base at around the 8-9 minute mark, its basically lights out for him. That is really all it takes. I mean, I think Idra-style play has some merit to it. It works for PvZ, I'll give it that. But trying to use the same style against Terran isn't going to work. Zerg gets put into a role where they CANNOT harass, and thus slow down the Terran ball. Once the Terran ball reaches critical mass, it is essential to use nydus worms / burrow, which I still don't see zerg players doing. No offense to Idra or anything, but I have never seen him get tunneling claws or doing a 1 base harass intensive build to try to slow the mech push. i'm not sure about 1base zerg play. terran will scout z has no expo and will know immediately mutas or roaches will come and get turrets which stops both, while getting his own expo and getting into huge advantage since zerg has to double expand then and is extremely vulnerable. the problem is zerg will have no creep spread and will have to power up all the drones to saturate the expoes. good timing push can easily kill the zerg imho. i like burrowed blings though, i'd like to see that more, terrans would probably learn to build ravens but that would be a good trade (as long as you don't use hydras . but still, not everytime you have raven with your units. So basically what you're saying is zerg FE is not viable because they become prone to harassment, and Zerg 1 base is not viable because Terran just prepares for it without contesting. So.......? What the hell? You need a good amount of turrets to completely shut down roaches, too. It's not like one turret would completely shut down a reaver drop in SC1. Again, I'm just tossing out what has worked for me in the beta. I rarely see this happen in tournaments. I don't know why. I just see the same strats over and over from the zergs and they keep losing the same way, again and again. Maybe they've tried out these strats in custom games, but I haven't seen any of them comment on it. well i haven't had any good zerg try it on me but what i think is...all you need is to get fast thor and get 3 turrets at each base and 1 at the front for burrowed roaches and a bunker in front as well, then you're pretty safe. repaired turrets laugh at mutas tbh. as i said, i haven't had a good zerg try it on me though.. Yeah, I haven't tried out the one base muta play. It does sound weak, but its better than doing a build that basically makes zerg lose 100% of the time against a Terran who knows what they are doing.
1 base muta IS a build that will basically make zerg lost 100% of the time against a terran who knows what they are doing.
You havent even tested it and your putting this junk forth as a viable alternative to zvt? LOL
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On August 07 2010 05:05 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:01 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. http://sc2ranks.com/statsOf all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg Diamond league as a whole: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg. LOOK at that gigantic gap. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data. Look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America. Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected. Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution. That just means that worse players switched or the really good players stuck with zerg and ended up in diamond. AKA more good zergs than bad zergs. Still shows there arnt at much Z in the top 50.
It makes sense that there aren't many Z in the top 50 because not many people play zerg. This is how probability works.
I presented you with evidence that a higher percentage of both diamond players worldwide and Korean top-50 are zerg than would be expected from the number of total players who play zerg.
Your argument is essentially that most or all zerg players are simply way better than average -- that the average skill level of all zerg players is WAY above the average skill level of all terran players and all protoss players, hence explaining why a higher percentage of zergs are top players than would be expected.
If that's your claim, please provide a statistical argument in support of it.
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i can't wait for new batch of official blizzard balance stats, anyone has an idea when they could come?
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On August 07 2010 05:08 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:05 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 05:01 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. http://sc2ranks.com/statsOf all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg Diamond league as a whole: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg. LOOK at that gigantic gap. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data. Look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America. Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected. Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution. That just means that worse players switched or the really good players stuck with zerg and ended up in diamond. AKA more good zergs than bad zergs. Still shows there arnt at much Z in the top 50. There aren't many Z in the top 50 because not many people play zerg. This is how probability works. Your argument is essentially that most or all zerg players are simply way better than average -- that the average skill level of all zerg players is WAY above the average skill level of all terrans players and all protoss players. If that's your argument, please provide a statistical argument.
Im laughing so hard right now.
You are determining top 50 diamond representation by using largely copper-platinum data.
Bravo. Keep crunchin dem numbers brah they givin great info!
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On August 07 2010 05:13 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:08 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 05:05 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 05:01 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. http://sc2ranks.com/statsOf all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg Diamond league as a whole: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg. LOOK at that gigantic gap. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data. Look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America. Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected. Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution. That just means that worse players switched or the really good players stuck with zerg and ended up in diamond. AKA more good zergs than bad zergs. Still shows there arnt at much Z in the top 50. There aren't many Z in the top 50 because not many people play zerg. This is how probability works. Your argument is essentially that most or all zerg players are simply way better than average -- that the average skill level of all zerg players is WAY above the average skill level of all terrans players and all protoss players. If that's your argument, please provide a statistical argument. Im laughing so hard right now. You are determining top 50 diamond representation by using largely copper-platinum data. Bravo. Keep crunchin dem numbers brah they givin great info!
What? I counted the number who played each race in the top 50 of the Korean ladder. Here's the link: http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/kr/diamond/1
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On August 07 2010 05:14 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:13 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 05:08 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 05:05 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 05:01 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. http://sc2ranks.com/statsOf all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg Diamond league as a whole: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg. LOOK at that gigantic gap. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data. Look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America. Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected. Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution. That just means that worse players switched or the really good players stuck with zerg and ended up in diamond. AKA more good zergs than bad zergs. Still shows there arnt at much Z in the top 50. There aren't many Z in the top 50 because not many people play zerg. This is how probability works. Your argument is essentially that most or all zerg players are simply way better than average -- that the average skill level of all zerg players is WAY above the average skill level of all terrans players and all protoss players. If that's your argument, please provide a statistical argument. Im laughing so hard right now. You are determining top 50 diamond representation by using largely copper-platinum data. Bravo. Keep crunchin dem numbers brah they givin great info! What? I counted the number who played each race in the top 50 of the Korean ladder. Here's the link: http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/kr/diamond/1
I am aware. But you are using copper-diamond data for total players of each race. Do you not see the flaw in that? Do you think that its an appropriate set of data to project an expectation based on? No, even you admit you need % played for all races in diamond. So whatever you are inferring from your 'data' is flawed anyways and drawing conclusions from it is even more worthless.
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1 base muta IS a build that will basically make zerg lost 100% of the time against a terran who knows what they are doing.
You havent even tested it and your putting this junk forth as a viable alternative to zvt? LOL
Yeah, in retrospect, that seems like one of the worst options to do in zvt.
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On August 07 2010 05:16 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:14 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 05:13 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 05:08 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 05:05 tacrats wrote:On August 07 2010 05:01 kajeus wrote:On August 07 2010 04:11 Logo wrote:On August 07 2010 04:05 mahnini wrote:
your reasoning makes no sense and it's becoming a common theme in these kinds of threads.
make generalization -> claim imbalance. if that doesnt work cite anecdotal evidence or a replay (1) of a zerg losing and claim it is impossible to win. a common way to form a coherent argument is to accept and provide rebuttals to common oppositions, not just to say "JUST ADMIT ZVT IS IMBA". It's the problem of the imbalance though. There's not one thing you can point to and say, "look imbalance." Many people try, which is why you get a lot of ridiculous arguments about x unit being too good or the combination of every Terran unit being too good. To anyone who actually plays Zerg though you can just feel the imbalance as you play ZvT even after facing 100s of Terrans and spending tons of energy working down on your strategies. More recently tournament results have backed up the claim with Terrans really placing disproportionately well across a # of tournaments. Ladder results are there as well, but harder to objectively determine as a proof of an imbalance. http://sc2ranks.com/statsOf all players on Korean servers: 8.56% Random, 39.21% Protoss, 34.51% Terran, 17.73% Zerg Diamond league as a whole: 9.74% Random, 36.11% Protoss, 29.87% Terran, 24.28% Zerg. LOOK at that gigantic gap. Now, % for each race of only Korean diamond players would be ideal, but oh well. We don't have that data. Look at the percentage that plays zerg in each region: 20.35% NA, 21.13% Europe, 17.73% Korea, 24.20% Taiwan, 20.46% SE Asia, 21.71% Russia, 17.53% Latin America. Now imagine any reasonable weighted average of those numbers. Around 21% maybe? Less? HOWEVER, what percentage of all diamond players are zerg? 24.28%!! That is not only CLOSE to what would be expected, but ABOVE what would be expected. Moreover, terrans are 36% of the top 50 in Korea (34.51% of all Koreans play terran). Zergs are 24% of the top 50 -- way MORE than the percentage who play the race in all of Korea (17.73%), and hence way MORE than would be expected to have fallen into the top 50 through random distribution. That just means that worse players switched or the really good players stuck with zerg and ended up in diamond. AKA more good zergs than bad zergs. Still shows there arnt at much Z in the top 50. There aren't many Z in the top 50 because not many people play zerg. This is how probability works. Your argument is essentially that most or all zerg players are simply way better than average -- that the average skill level of all zerg players is WAY above the average skill level of all terrans players and all protoss players. If that's your argument, please provide a statistical argument. Im laughing so hard right now. You are determining top 50 diamond representation by using largely copper-platinum data. Bravo. Keep crunchin dem numbers brah they givin great info! What? I counted the number who played each race in the top 50 of the Korean ladder. Here's the link: http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/kr/diamond/1 I am aware. But you are using copper-diamond data for total players of each race. Do you not see the flaw in that? Do you think that its an appropriate set of data to project an expectation based on? No, even you admit you need % played for all races in diamond. So whatever you are inferring from your 'data' is flawed anyways and drawing conclusions from it is even more worthless.
I have the % played for all races in diamond, just not in Korea alone. In fact, I used the % played for all races in diamond to make my point.
The copper-to-diamond data for total players of each race is normal stuff -- that's called the overall distribution. We would expect that distribution to hold no matter what sample we take from the overall population. Hence, if zerg is underpowered, you would expect proportionally FEWER zerg players in diamond and the top 50 than are present (again, proportionally) in the general population. This is how statistical science works.
((To review: 20.54% of all players worldwide are zerg, yet 24.28% of all diamond players worldwide are zerg.))
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This is a pointless approach. If you don't consider the ramifications on Protoss balance your wasting and your time and even if Blizzard were to implement your suggestion it would probably just make the game worse. A better approach would be which units/upgrades/spells/synergy are too good vs Zerg, Terran and Protoss.
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I think mules should be 25 energy like chrono boost and inject larvae. (decrease MULE time)
I think bunkers should cost 50% to salvage.
I think tanks range or power needs to be decreased, or tanks move to tier 3 cause 50 damage is insane.
I think Thor and turret range needs to decrease.
I think overlords should have to ability to drop right away, no upgrade.
This would make TvZ more equal.
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On August 07 2010 05:37 leeznon wrote:
I think mules should be 25 energy like chrono boost and inject larvae. (decrease MULE time)
I think bunkers should cost 50% to salvage.
I think tanks range or power needs to be decreased, or tanks move to tier 3 cause 50 damage is insane.
I think Thor and turret range needs to decrease.
I think overlords should have to ability to drop right away, no upgrade.
This would make TvZ more equal.
The reason why everything you said was utterly retarded is because any of those suggestions aside from the salvage correction would break the balance so horribly it is hardly funny. (Ok, it would be funny, just to see a few terran tears as well. Hell we could probably bathe in them).
edit 2: fixt. sorry, I must be on crack and/or lack of sleep. My main balance point still stands.
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On August 07 2010 05:41 DTown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 05:37 leeznon wrote:
I think mules should be 25 energy like chrono boost and inject larvae. (decrease MULE time)
I think bunkers should cost 50% to salvage.
I think tanks range or power needs to be decreased, or tanks move to tier 3 cause 50 damage is insane.
I think Thor and turret range needs to decrease.
I think overlords should have to ability to drop right away, no upgrade.
This would make TvZ more equal. Besides the massive amount of terrible involved in your post, inject larvae does not cost 25 energy, it costs 50.
lol what?
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EPT
