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eRoN_
91 Posts
For me 2 changes would fix ZvT, 1. remove splash damage on Thor AA, and 2. Remove tank smart fire. That would make me happy at least and are the only things i really have a problem with. However i am one of those "shitty diamond players" so maybe i don't have the full picture. | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
In summary this is just a frustrated "nerf terran!!!" thread, imho. Edit: Btw. your Roach/Medivac comparison is absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely. Ridiculous. Period. | ||
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vlf
Portugal170 Posts
On August 08 2010 18:18 WonderBoy55 wrote: Reguarding OP Supply Depots I feel that the upgrade/orbital command ability to raise and lower would be inellegant. Perhaps make the raise/lower ability take time, or have a cooldown. Not much, about 10-15 game seconds, just enough to punish a player who doesn't react in time and reward a more skilled player with better micro and game sense Mules It's easy to say Mules are IMBA because they give such an economic boost to Terran players or to throw down 4 Mules after taking a Gold expansion. However, it is the responsibility of the opponent to prevent the other player from expanding. Reducing the Mule lifespan or energy cost would make them cheap and less dynamic for repairing units/structures. However, 30 minerals per trip is a little much. By reducing it to about 20-25 minerals per trip, they would be a little less of an economic super-boost. Perhaps it would incline some players to get fewer mules, freeing up energy for scans later and lead to more dynamic play. I haven't concidered all reprocussions of this though, so let me know what you think. Bunkers I feel that Bunkers have too much health. 400 HP for a bunker vs photon canon's 150/150 and spine crawler's 300 seems a little peculiar. Though spines have 1 more armor, still doesn't completely even out, as bunkers can attack both air and ground depending on units in them. Also they can have much higher DPS (4 stimmed marines) than other races static defenses and are much more useful for keeping units alive longer than other races. Also, they can be repaired at a very quick rate, while Protoss cannot and Zerg have to spend precious Queen energy. Perhaps 300 - 320 would be more fair, and it would be more managable in early game for players who get reaper/bunker rushed at their mineral line to defend. Viking/Thor I like them mostly the way the are. I would like to see the fire rate of Vikings in assault mode decrease. An attack speed of 1 for a unit that does 12 dps on the ground but can also fly? That's comparable to a Stalker, who does 10 (+4 vs armored) damage, but has an attack speed of 1.44, giving it 6.94 (9.72) dps. Note that Vikings only cost 25 more gas and minerals than Stalkers and take the same supply. I'd like to see Viking's ground attack speed around 1.2-1.3. Also note that it takes Vikings 2 seconds to lift off/land. A faster attack speed for the Viking than the comparable Stalker is valid due to this, and the fact that it costs slightly more. Thor's attack speed is 3, which is very managable for a group of mutas to micro around creatively. Not to mension thors move so slowly, so bouncing back and forth between bases is very managable as long as there aren't too many missile turrets. +6 (x4) against light is a little excessive though, perhaps +3 or +4 would be a little less devistating. Mutas aren't very effective against most Terran as it is. 10 is pretty far, 9 would be more reasonable but at that point it's very difficult to tell how much of a difference it would make in a larger battle. Marauders I think the slow is fair, just because both zealot legs and stalker blink directly counteract it, though they both are slightly higher tier. 50/50 is very cheap however, and taking only 60 seconds is quite fast. Zealot legs and Blink are 200/200 and 150/150 and take 140 and 110 respectively. Not to mension a whole new tech structure in order to research them. I'd like to see Concussive Shells at 100/100 and 70-80 time. Since it's a passive ability with no cooldown, it's also just that much more effective than comparable legs and blink. As for the Zerg, i guess the have Roach burrow and claws? Not the best and also more expensive and time consuming at 150/150 and 110 seconds. They do have speedlings though, which in mass are a good counter to the marauders. Perhaps the Zerg could us a slight buff here but I cannot say for certain. Source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/ Nerf mules and you'll be nerfing PvT into the ground as well. Bunkers are absolutely useless without units inside, which count for the army psi, unlike cannons or spinecrawlers. Vikings are paper planes, they melt to pretty much any GtA. Thors are needed as a counter to light air for map control, spamming turrets is not an option--they are expensive and, obviously, immobile. Thors are also the only AA option Terran has if you're not going mass rine with stim, which just gets DESTROYED by banelings and infestors. Giving up map control to the zerg after he spawns 12 mutas at once doesn't win games, expect a bunch fo ultras raping your natural soon enough. It's funny how people just keep on whining, some even dare say the ultralisk is weak, when most diamond zergs nowadays rush for ultras and then swarm your natural for an easy win. Even if you repel the first 2 attacks you'll have no standing army to move out effectively and turtling on 2 bases against a player sending waves after waves of ultras is a pointless effort. If Terran didn't have the unit diversity/build dynamics it has then there would be almost nothing you could do against a zerg playing a heavy macro game, most zerg players who fail are content in getting large 200 psi armies of tier 1.5/2 units and stockpilling larva, waiting for the terran to take initiative or just a-moving when they hit 200. Terran players spent most of the beta tweaking timing pushes to deal with zerg, as it was the only effective way of hopefully doing significant damage and going toe to toe with zerg players who refused to play any differently than the FE build which has been around for so long. Most high level players have played against these types of FE macro builds so much that every single zerg timing is easy to exploit. I reckon that Zerg might have a problem as far as build diversity goes but people whining about mules is just ridiculous, Zerg macro is obviously superior to Terran's--it's NOT harder to use than mules, they are both fairly simple mechanics, only the timings differ. | ||
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Tirm
United States14 Posts
range on vikings definitely needs to be reduced.... as a P player, seeing my collosi get insta-gibbed from the 8 reactor'd vikings sitting behind the terran bioball is getting to be pretty gay. | ||
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Dr.Anders
Denmark19 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 08 2010 20:11 Dr.Anders wrote: I agree with this post completely, you can clearly see how many top level terran players who win all tournaments! Like IdrA winning KingOftheBeta, WhiteRa winning HDH and Slush winning TLI:US, but yeah, honestly a lot of "Terrans" on winning sprees due to easily lifting depot, spamming mules and making bunkers! Its funny that of the changes you chose, you chose the ones that were 1) accidentally a buff instead of a nerf, and 2) the one that makes no difference at all. Why do people actually think the depot lift change will actually do anything at all? We went 10 years in BW just lifting Barracks to open walls. It's not like we couldn't go back to doing that if lifting depots stopped being a legitimate option. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
When the next patch comes out and the inevitable terran nerf we'll see who's complaining then. | ||
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On August 08 2010 20:30 tomatriedes wrote: It's so strange to me that even though the game has only been out such a short time so many terran players are so fanatically convinced that it's already so completely balanced that there shouldn't any more patches at all. When the next patch comes out and the inevitable terran nerf we'll see who's complaining then. Inevitable terran nerf? We'll see about that... Have you seen TLO vs MadFrog today? Pretty clearly shows what terran's weaknesses are and how to exploit them and it also shows, first and foremost, that the matchup is not even close to "severely imbalanced". There are situations that might feel "ridiculous" to both a Zerg or a Terran player but all in all, it's quite well balanced imho. I for one found it amazingly ridiculous that Game5 of the above mentioned series came off to a base trade with TLO barely winning after he secured a huge huge early game advantage by destroying MadFrog's natural so quickly. Normally that should've been curtains right there, but a few of the oh-so-underpowered roaches cleaned up TLO's force easily... It's also pretty ridiculous that a full terran mech army can just be surrounded & killed by mass speedlings if there are only slightly too few hellions in the mix. I'd go even further and say it's pretty ridiculous how many things can just be killed by mass speedling surrounds without even microing much. Note - To make this clear: These are just a few situations form a terran's point of view to show that the matchup isn't nearly as T favored as many people keep calling it. I'm pretty sure there are many examples like that from the Zerg's point of view too, where he just feels something "ridiculous" happened, that shouldn't have. But all aspects considered it makes a pretty balanced matchup imho. | ||
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fantastix
Germany5 Posts
Druide since season 1 in 2on2 bracket and prot paladin sinc wotlk (dont know if they got nerfed yet, quit before that happened) so yeah T is definately fine, stop whining, i am a T player and i can tell you T IS NOT IMBA!! if sum1 hands me over a million $$$ would i say no, i dont deserve it??? : O | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On August 08 2010 18:57 Mooncat wrote: This thread suggest that TvZ is an imbalanced matchup in favor of T, something I do not agree with. Care to say why? Saying "agree" or "disagree" without stating the reasons is totally useless. Might as well not post. My reasons i already expressed them earlier, this is to say people should get the habit of thinking before posting, and saying the reasons why they disagree or agree, otherwise it's useless to say so. | ||
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Huntsman
New Zealand36 Posts
Mule: I don't really see the point in this change tbh. The mule vs scan tension is already apparent, and changing it will ruin it. Also, while I'll agree that currently the terran macro mechanic is very forgiving in relation to larva and warp gates/chrono boost, I just need to point out that Terran cannot produce units faster unlike protoss with chrono boost and warp gates, or the larva mechanic with zerg. All it does is allow you to gather minerals faster and that's it. So while its not as 'difficult', the early and mid game 'mule vs scan' tension adds a decision making factor to game which is really important, the extra minerals gathered really (i feel) allows terran to build more unit producing facilities to keep up with the amount zerg can make and protoss being able to create units in 5 seconds anywhere in pylon power. Supply depots: This seems like a change for the sake of having a change. The dynamic with early game depots is interesting, I think that it would be more negative than positive if it was changed. Having depots as part of your wall is already a decision Terrans have to make, as they are easily destroyed, screwing over the Terran (eg; baneling busts). Bunkers: Again, the mechanic is fine. While a lot of people claim that they're 'free', they're not. They just give you 100 minerals later if you salvage them, and building a lot of them early on can set you back regardless of salvage. Also, if you get bunker rushed and the bunker gets set up, then your already at a disadvantage to the point where salvage doesn't really matter. If they set up 5+ bunkers outside your base (or in their base and you attack) then I believe that you're doing something wrong as opposed to the bunker being as it is. I will agree though that the drone ai as you mentioned could be improved, but you and others mention in these posts that you want Terran to multi task more as well, so why not making you watch the drone attacking the worker? Plus the random movement of building workers hinders terran more than t helps, as you have no control over where it goes and can often lead to less than ideal results. On a side note, I do think that blizzard intended bunkers to be used in an element of leap frogging and pushes. Part of Terran is about setting up defensive positions, and the bunker + salvage adds to that. Viking/Thor: I want to say that the Viking is Terrans anti air unit. The Thor is light anti air and later game air units destroy marines. Plus if you lower the range on Vikings then how will Terran stop carriers? As far as i know kitting with Vikings is the only way to kill them effectively, unless you have 20 times as many marines as they do carriers, then reducing the range would mean carriers = auto win unless you have substantially more invested in Vikings. Same goes with Battle Cruisers in tvt. The Thor needs the long range as it's so slow. same with the splash. If you remove either of them then mutalisks will be far too powerful and hard to deal with unless you have lots of marines, as they can already avoid thors and harass unless you have 4-5 positioned around your base. I'm also going to talk about the tank here aswell. First off, if you nerf its range or damage anymore then it will be useless in tvt and most possibly tvp and probably barely useful in tvz. Also, tanks dont have 'super non overkill ai' that people always talk about. There was an interview with browder (i think) that i cant find the thread for but will link it when i can (its the Q&A where there are a lot of responses to 100+ questions i believe). What he said was that the siege tanks (and maybe all/most other units) don't fire all at once, but instead one after another. While they do it so fast its hard to notice, and because the siege tank shot is instant, it's always centred on top of a unit which is alive, as you cannot shot dead units in sc2, thus no overkill. This makes it feel as though it has a 'no over kill ai', when it doesnt, and changing it will require a major overhaul in sc2 ai, and I dont think that Blizzard wants to do that. Marauder: concussive shells isn't powerful enough for it to be a cool down skill like blink. Changing it like this would make it just a giant marine. That does less damage. Medivac unless you have 1 medivac per unit in you army, then you cannot compare it to organic carapace. 50 units healing at one rate is different from 10 units healing one unit at a time at a faster rate. The medivac is completely fine as it is, and other than earlier arguments about it being.. well.. a medic + a drop ship, this is the only complaint I've actually seen about it. I think that people aren't respecting how delicate balance is. You cant just tweak random crap for one match up as that could screw up other match ups, being more detrimental than beneficial. What would I change to balance it? I don't know. Mech was powerful in sc1 too and the zergs there have to play very well to beat it, so why cant they now? I do agree that something should change, perhaps a small roach buff, but I believe that when people find the best way to beat it then it wont be a problem. Plus with fungal growth and banelings, Terrans are already forced to go some sort of mech build anyway. Also, sorry if I repeated some previous things in this thread but I haven't read all 44 pages >> Edit: wasnt the thread I was looking for but this shows what I was refering to with Tanks: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136653 | ||
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Oddysay
Canada597 Posts
sorry to say that but : you all suck , no you are not good , top foreigner are not good either right now. play the game and learn . and that not because you played 400 game in beta that you know something either . im going to worry when the korean talk about imbalance about anything . right now they dont whine , remember the pvp before , blizzard fixed that. and right now strangely , zerg and protoss are realy strong in the korean server foreigner just copy build order ( unit too lol... ) for the know foreigner . korean try new build , learn the game , and try to find good counter . for resume just stfu and stop whine . im damn tired of reading newbie whine about that and that , terran are imba , nerf them , buff zerg because we suck and dont scout using overlord anymore. the fix the game so we can be good because we suck mentality . | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 08 2010 20:46 Mooncat wrote: Inevitable terran nerf? We'll see about that... Have you seen TLO vs MadFrog today? Pretty clearly shows what terran's weaknesses are and how to exploit them and it also shows, first and foremost, that the matchup is not even close to "severely imbalanced". There are situations that might feel "ridiculous" to both a Zerg or a Terran player but all in all, it's quite well balanced imho. I for one found it amazingly ridiculous that Game5 of the above mentioned series came off to a base trade with TLO barely winning after he secured a huge huge early game advantage by destroying MadFrog's natural so quickly. Normally that should've been curtains right there, but a few of the oh-so-underpowered roaches cleaned up TLO's force easily... It's also pretty ridiculous that a full terran mech army can just be surrounded & killed by mass speedlings if there are only slightly too few hellions in the mix. I'd go even further and say it's pretty ridiculous how many things can just be killed by mass speedling surrounds without even microing much. Note - To make this clear: These are just a few situations form a terran's point of view to show that the matchup isn't nearly as T favored as many people keep calling it. I'm pretty sure there are many examples like that from the Zerg's point of view too, where he just feels something "ridiculous" happened, that shouldn't have. But all aspects considered it makes a pretty balanced matchup imho. Yeah, we'll see. I, for one, find the likelihood that this game is completely balanced on release extremely unlikely. One way or another there will be some sort of patch. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On August 08 2010 18:36 Therickz wrote: Oh man terran is so strong DDDDD: man get out of here. the only reason zerg is shit is cus its being played by shit players. I can agree that along with toss, terran is one of the easier races to play, with zerg being the hardest, but if you lose all the time as zerg, why dont you stop QQ and main toss. Problem solved IdrA, winrate above 80 percent, zerg player. Plays more than 10 hours a day probably. GLaDe, winrate above 80 percent also, zerg player on the SEA server. Painkiller, winrate above 70 percent, zerg player on the KR server. Source: sc2ranks.com If these are all 'shit' players then I don't want to know what good players are. And sure, we could all play terran, then there would be all balance. Infact, why don't we all play chess? That's balanced. You can't just say 'if that race is easy to handle, and the other one is too, but the last one is hard and unpredictable, then its good enough'. There are legit problems in ZvT. Mostly in the midgame. If we can't discuss it with people owning a well-functioning brain here at Teamliquid, where do you expect us to discuss it else? Battlenet forums? Come on. | ||
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cuppatea
United Kingdom1401 Posts
On August 08 2010 22:15 Oddysay wrote: the game just out for under 2 week and people think they know anything about the game. sorry to say that but : you all suck , no you are not good , top foreigner are not good either right now. play the game and learn . and that not because you played 400 game in beta that you know something either . im going to worry when the korean talk about imbalance about anything . right now they dont whine , remember the pvp before , blizzard fixed that. and right now strangely , zerg and protoss are realy strong in the korean server foreigner just copy build order ( unit too lol... ) for the know foreigner . korean try new build , learn the game , and try to find good counter . for resume just stfu and stop whine . im damn tired of reading newbie whine about that and that , terran are imba , nerf them , buff zerg because we suck and dont scout using overlord anymore. the fix the game so we can be good because we suck mentality . I take it you didn't see the whole "Terran are overpowered" interview with Tester a while back? Just because Koreans aren't posting on tl.net doesn't mean they're not complaining about Terran on their own foums. And Terran are doing just as well in Korea as everywhere else right now. The 2nd WTA final (first big tourney in Korea since release) is being played right now with 2 Terrans in the final. The 1st WTA tournament at the end of the beta was won by a Terran. The GOM Invitational had a TvT final. The GOM Team Battle tournament was won after a Terran 5-0'd the whole Prime team. Terran is dominating everywhere, Korea included. It's easy to say "let's just wait and see" when you're playing the dominant race. Unfortunately, being on the receiving end isn't quite so fun and Zerg players would rather not spend the next few months getting crushed by Terran in the hope that one of them will finally discover something to even up the matchup. What's funny is, I don't remember quite so many T players advocating the "wait and see" approach to balancing back when they were getting owned by Protoss. But hey, who gives a fuck about patching as long as it's your race on top, right? | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
IdrA vs. drewbie on Kulas Ravine http://www.sc2-replays.net/de/replays/256-idra-vs-drewbie,kulas-ravine IMO this replay shows everything that's bad in TvZ. Disregard Idra's trademark rage for a second: Tbh I understand his rage a bit. He outresources Drewbie the entire game yet his massive 200/200 army needs two t3.5 units to even dent the MMM-thor ball. Due to pathing and critical mass firepower mechanics, basic Terran units are just so ridiculously much more cost-effective than anything Zerg can field that they allow an outmacroed player like Drewbie to hold off Idra way longer than he should. Combine cost-effectiveness with dirt-easy macro mechanics that increase income regardless of mining bases or worker count, and you see why we have a problem. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 08 2010 22:15 Oddysay wrote: the game just out for under 2 week and people think they know anything about the game. sorry to say that but : you all suck , no you are not good , top foreigner are not good either right now. play the game and learn . and that not because you played 400 game in beta that you know something either . im going to worry when the korean talk about imbalance about anything . right now they dont whine , remember the pvp before , blizzard fixed that. and right now strangely , zerg and protoss are realy strong in the korean server foreigner just copy build order ( unit too lol... ) for the know foreigner . korean try new build , learn the game , and try to find good counter . for resume just stfu and stop whine . im damn tired of reading newbie whine about that and that , terran are imba , nerf them , buff zerg because we suck and dont scout using overlord anymore. the fix the game so we can be good because we suck mentality . If this was just a noob-losing issue then theoretically we would see equal balance complaints from other races- because there are noobs playing all three races, not just zerg. But so far there have been the most complaints from zerg users. Maybe that's because zerg is harder for newer players to handle. In that case, it's a little disingenuous to just tell people to improve. There will be always be players who aren't as good as others and if one race is much harder to learn and play for lower level players that could become a problem in itself. A balance change may be needed that could somehow help the lower level players without altering the balance at the top too much, as difficult as this sounds. I believe passionately in making this game as balanced as possible and not just sitting back and telling the users of one race to harden up. I want it to be more balanced than BW in all match-ups if that is indeed possible. Anyway it is indeed too early to be making pronouncements about balance yet. If after a few months though, one race is statistically far behind or ahead it would be silly to ignore that too. | ||
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LightKesta
United States26 Posts
On August 08 2010 22:54 Sueco wrote: IMO this replay shows everything that's bad in TvZ. Disregard Idra's trademark rage for a second: Tbh I understand his rage a bit. He outresources Drewbie the entire game yet his massive 200/200 army needs two t3.5 units to even dent the MMM-thor ball. Due to pathing and critical mass firepower mechanics, basic Terran units are just so ridiculously much more cost-effective than anything Zerg can field that they allow an outmacroed player like Drewbie to hold off Idra way longer than he should. Combine cost-effectiveness with dirt-easy macro mechanics that increase income regardless of mining bases or worker count, and you see why we have a problem. Totally and completely true, I have even been one to say Idra's rage is unfounded at times (and I'll admit he was a bit rude with the "go fuck yourself" and such. But when he was saying it was ridiculous I completely agree. This match could not showcase more what's clearly wrong with TvZ. Even watching the MadFrog v TLO matches I sigh and shake my head and how much more MadFrog seems to have to do when he's up 2 or more bases compared to TLO's 2 bases. Also the micro ability needed compared to the T player is also pretty astounding, you don't stand a chance if it isn't good enough. It's ridiculous what little it takes Terran unit wise, to beat a large variety and mix of Z units. I can't believe people are even attempting to argue that the balance is fine. And just a side note, bringing up matches here and there that Z pros are winning doesn't prove AT ALL that it's not imbalanced. We're not saying Z cannot win at all, you're missing the point of the argument by saying that. | ||
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