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On August 09 2010 00:19 LightKesta wrote:
And just a side note, bringing up matches here and there that Z pros are winning doesn't prove AT ALL that it's not imbalanced. We're not saying Z cannot win at all, you're missing the point of the argument by saying that.
You have to balance a game for pro level. It's nearly impossible to balance a game on each and every level of skill the players might have, so you naturally go for the highest current or highest possible skill level. And when two pros that are about the same level play a very very close series on 5 different maps with one of them barely winning it is at least a strong indicator for a match-up to be decently balanced.
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On August 03 2010 04:05 koppik wrote:Plus, muling is a pretty weak ability compared to larva inject.
You can't compare muling with larva inject. One involves MINING (cash flow $), and the other involves increasing production CAPACITY (^ supply).
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it's funny that terran players actually think the game is balanced.
But imho if you were actually thinking it you wouldn't even be here and try to defend terran.
To me it sounds more like you are just really afraid of a nerf to take your ez mode away.
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On August 09 2010 00:50 AncienTs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 04:05 koppik wrote:Plus, muling is a pretty weak ability compared to larva inject. You can't compare muling with larva inject. One involves MINING (cash flow $), and the other involves increasing production CAPACITY (^ supply).
Seeing how medivacs have been compared to roaches comparing muling to larva inject is fine as the comparisons in the OP are terrible.
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On August 09 2010 00:27 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 00:19 LightKesta wrote:
And just a side note, bringing up matches here and there that Z pros are winning doesn't prove AT ALL that it's not imbalanced. We're not saying Z cannot win at all, you're missing the point of the argument by saying that. You have to balance a game for pro level. It's nearly impossible to balance a game on each and every level of skill the players might have, so you naturally go for the highest current or highest possible skill level. And when two pros that are about the same level play a very very close series on 5 different maps with one of them barely winning it is at least a strong indicator for a match-up to be decently balanced.
I realize that. I was talking more the posts that are basically "well this Z won this match again T, so it's fine stop whining" which is overlooking the issues and evidence that's already been brought to light in this thread. There's plenty more matches that show the unfairness of the T against the Z opponent and that's when it becomes really clear. That game was a pretty prime example, even though he did eventually win.
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These are amazing suggestion maybe it's too much but i think mule should have a cooldown.
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Awesome post LaLush. I'm not the best at actually assessing whether or not these points should be incorporated, but it's cool to see a serious approach to the problem
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Holy Moly ... just watched idra vs drewbie .... omg it was so hard to take down t for idra look at his units lost (in rescources not in count) that cant be man ,looks unbalanced to me
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On August 09 2010 02:28 Onioncookie wrote:
Holy Moly ... just watched idra vs drewbie .... omg it was so hard to take down t for idra look at his units lost (in rescources not in count) that cant be man ,looks unbalanced to me
do you even watched the game? maybe you need more then the usual "i macro up and build only 2 units with my 24/7 super macro idra style without using my brain".
idra is not a good subject for balance discussions cause
a) he is a super crier
b) he plays with muscles only and without brain
even in sc1, after 1year? in a progaming house and 12? hours training he got owned by stupid all ins that even average C+/B- were able to stop.
NOT that he is a bad player, but without using his brain + accepting his own failures he will never become a real progamer in sc2 like flash/jaedong/bisu were in sc1.
anyway i didnt read all the changes, because it was called "TvZ balance" and all i saw was T nerfs. to "fix" a matchup it needs to "fix" both sides. should i mention banelings, that make bio nearly impossible and are the mainreason why terrans started to go hardcore mech in TvZ?
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On August 09 2010 02:43 AmstAff wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:28 Onioncookie wrote:
Holy Moly ... just watched idra vs drewbie .... omg it was so hard to take down t for idra look at his units lost (in rescources not in count) that cant be man ,looks unbalanced to me
do you even watched the game? maybe you need more then the usual "i macro up and build only 2 units with my 24/7 super macro idra style without using my brain". idra is not a good subject for balance discussions cause a) he is a super crier b) he plays with muscles only and without brain even in sc1, after 1year? in a progaming house and 12? hours training he got owned by stupid all ins that even average C+/B- were able to stop. NOT that he is a bad player, but without using his brain + accepting his own failures he will never become a real progamer in sc2 like flash/jaedong/bisu were in sc1. anyway i didnt read all the changes, because it was called "TvZ balance" and all i saw was T nerfs. to "fix" a matchup it needs to "fix" both sides. should i mention banelings, that make bio nearly impossible and are the mainreason why terrans started to go hardcore mech in TvZ?
Wait I'm sory Idra can't discuss balance because he BM's sometimes? Admitted, but that doesn't negate that act that he uh, ya know, plays pros that would wipe the floor with most of the rest of us and has had plenty of matchups against T opponents and can actually point out the problems (as he's already done) with the matchup. And him playing without a brain is just you going into "bash idra" mode. I'd love to hear how having first hand the experience of playing top players Terran's isn't enough to have a say in the balance of TvZ
Replays are more than enough to prove the guy knows what he's doing. You don't get to a pro level by not using your brain, and you don't sign on to a team and move to Korea with no brain. Nice try though, I'm not sure what's funnier, the few morons trying to discredit Idras standing because of BM, or the people who think TvZ is balanced.
And I guess you don't play much, seeing as Banelings, even with speed can be beaten pretty easily if the T has any sense and is any good. "Banelings herp derp" actually isn't the answer to the obvious imbalance of the matchup, I'm starting to wonder if YOU even watched the damn replay. And they go "hardcore mech" because that hardcore beats Z, nearly everytime, regardless of being 2 or more expos ahead with eco and having almost 200/200 unit supply.
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On August 09 2010 02:43 AmstAff wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:28 Onioncookie wrote:
Holy Moly ... just watched idra vs drewbie .... omg it was so hard to take down t for idra look at his units lost (in rescources not in count) that cant be man ,looks unbalanced to me
do you even watched the game? maybe you need more then the usual "i macro up and build only 2 units with my 24/7 super macro idra style without using my brain". idra is not a good subject for balance discussions cause a) he is a super crier b) he plays with muscles only and without brain even in sc1, after 1year? in a progaming house and 12? hours training he got owned by stupid all ins that even average C+/B- were able to stop. NOT that he is a bad player, but without using his brain + accepting his own failures he will never become a real progamer in sc2 like flash/jaedong/bisu were in sc1. anyway i didnt read all the changes, because it was called "TvZ balance" and all i saw was T nerfs. to "fix" a matchup it needs to "fix" both sides. should i mention banelings, that make bio nearly impossible and are the mainreason why terrans started to go hardcore mech in TvZ?
Of course i did <.<
What i saw is Mass Marodeur + Tanks vs Mass Lings/Ultras Mostly ... eventhough he had like all the map , his army was like rebuild billiones times , eventough it were high tech "counter units" to t's composition , wich was as cost intensive as t's eventough he lost his army several times
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in drewbie vs idra the terran was so fucking bad. he was literally doing nothing but sitting next to his expos the whole game. if he'd done some drops lategame, idra would've been crushed so badly it's not funny.
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On August 09 2010 02:58 LightKesta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:43 AmstAff wrote:On August 09 2010 02:28 Onioncookie wrote:
Holy Moly ... just watched idra vs drewbie .... omg it was so hard to take down t for idra look at his units lost (in rescources not in count) that cant be man ,looks unbalanced to me
do you even watched the game? maybe you need more then the usual "i macro up and build only 2 units with my 24/7 super macro idra style without using my brain". idra is not a good subject for balance discussions cause a) he is a super crier b) he plays with muscles only and without brain even in sc1, after 1year? in a progaming house and 12? hours training he got owned by stupid all ins that even average C+/B- were able to stop. NOT that he is a bad player, but without using his brain + accepting his own failures he will never become a real progamer in sc2 like flash/jaedong/bisu were in sc1. anyway i didnt read all the changes, because it was called "TvZ balance" and all i saw was T nerfs. to "fix" a matchup it needs to "fix" both sides. should i mention banelings, that make bio nearly impossible and are the mainreason why terrans started to go hardcore mech in TvZ? Wait I'm sory Idra can't discuss balance because he BM's sometimes? Admitted, but that doesn't negate that act that he uh, ya know, plays pros that would wipe the floor with most of the rest of us and has had plenty of matchups against T opponents and can actually point out the problems (as he's already done) with the matchup. And him playing without a brain is just you going into "bash idra" mode. I'd love to hear how having first hand the experience of playing top players Terran's isn't enough to have a say in the balance of TvZ Replays are more than enough to prove the guy knows what he's doing. You don't get to a pro level by not using your brain, and you don't sign on to a team and move to Korea with no brain. Nice try though, I'm not sure what's funnier, the few morons trying to discredit Idras standing because of BM, or the people who think TvZ is balanced. And I guess you don't play much, seeing as Banelings, even with speed can be beaten pretty easily if the T has any sense and is any good. "Banelings herp derp" actually isn't the answer to the obvious imbalance of the matchup, I'm starting to wonder if YOU even watched the damn replay. And they go "hardcore mech" because that hardcore beats Z, nearly everytime, regardless of being 2 or more expos ahead with eco and having almost 200/200 unit supply.
he cant discuss balance because he is totally biased. even if z would be totally OP he would keep saying that the balance is fine but if he isnt winning 100% and if the opponent doesnt plays how he wants its cheese/imbalance.
i prefer opinions of players that have a whole plan for the whole game and every situation, players like white-ra who even thought out where to place which building and not players like idra who play always the same even if they scout something different, something that even counter his usual hydra/roach.
and now i will quote someone else from gg.net cause im too lazy to write it in my own words
Drewbie was using a well composed army: tanks, thors, marauders and marines. And he kept making only lings ans ultras. The moment he did something different - broodlords - he won the game.
The imbalance is on the lack of intelligence of this whiny kid.
And he still says that terran players were the stupid ones.
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The idra vs drewbie game was really funny to watch.. idra was winning at about 24 min when he for some reason just gave up after attacking some bunkers.. even after losing some ultras he was still 30 food ahead.
After that he just massed ultras and lings for 20 minutes and threw them at the terran ball.. even though half of the terran bases were undefended.
Then he decides to finally build brood lords and wins in a minute after creating them.
I mean, come on? Is that really how "pro's" play?
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On August 09 2010 03:45 sekalf wrote:
The idra vs drewbie game was really funny to watch.. idra was winning at about 24 min when he for some reason just gave up after attacking some bunkers.. even after losing some ultras he was still 30 food ahead.
After that he just massed ultras and lings for 20 minutes and threw them at the terran ball.. even though half of the terran bases were undefended.
Then he decides to finally build brood lords and wins in a minute after creating them.
I mean, come on? Is that really how "pro's" play?
He didn't win because of the broodlords.
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Supply depots are fine.
Mules are more or less fine. Making them less potent for more energy changes a lot. Mule sniping isn't as good, and you can also do stuff like call down multiple mules to repair your mech harass (hellion harass, Thor push, bunker repairs, all sorts of stuff) since if they aren't that much better than an SCV, might as well just keep the scv mining instead of waiting until repairs are needing while marching across the map.
If you want Mules to be comparable to larva inject (which they aren't) to at least somewhat punish a T that lets his energy max and then spam mules to spend it all, have the mule be cast on the CC and limit the number of mules that can be mining for a cc to 2 or 3. Not 1, as you'll mine out your main/expansions over time and chrono/inject from mains/expos doesn't really lose effectiveness after the base is mined out. If you want to get even more extreme/cute, have different amounts of max mules depending on if it's a cc, orbital, or PF. Even that would need to be carefully examined. Or don't do squat for T, keep everything as it is, and *gasp* improve the mechanics of Z and P instead. P currently isn't punished too harshly for forgetting to Chrono (past early game) but that's more of a how good is Chrono Boost thing.
Viking/Thor range is very strong. Whether a nerf is even needed is arguable, as then you need to examine the fallback anti-air options (marines, turrets, Raven shenanigans - cattlebruisers don't count) versus all the air that can be thrown at them. Anything beyond a 1 range nerf on Vikings would be too harsh and a 2 range nerf on Thor is probably pushing it as well. In addition, the more a Thor's range goes down, the closer they have to be to the frontline to shoot back at air... and moving through tank lines isn't exactly the easiest task for a Thor.
Medivac heal vs. Roach regen. lolwut?
Getting 100% back from bunkers isn't major, but does seem quite good. Getting 75% back (like a cancel would give) should be fine. While a T does have less econ/army/something for throwing down a bunker, being able to spend it all later when the bunker is no longer needed to not die is quite versatile.
Marauders are more or less fine. If you want to change them at all, examining range and how it meshes with other units (Marines, Hellions, etc) seems like a much better place to start than going after concussive shells right away... or go after the research cost/time first before changing the fundamental way that the upgrade functions.
And for the record, I don't play T. I play P and offrace into Z mildly atm.
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why shouldnt u get back 100% for a bunk? i mean its static defense that does nothing without units in it. give me a crawler or a cannon and i dont even want this stupid bunk. every other building that gets canceled gives only 1/4 back, but they all have some function. its like getting only 1/4 back if you cancel some zerg egg.
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On August 09 2010 03:45 sekalf wrote:
The idra vs drewbie game was really funny to watch.. idra was winning at about 24 min when he for some reason just gave up after attacking some bunkers.. even after losing some ultras he was still 30 food ahead.
After that he just massed ultras and lings for 20 minutes and threw them at the terran ball.. even though half of the terran bases were undefended.
Then he decides to finally build brood lords and wins in a minute after creating them.
I mean, come on? Is that really how "pro's" play?
This is so wrong, the only thing broodlords did was force drewbie to make about 3 viking, that's it.
Idra pulled the win by sending thousands and thousands of ressources at drewbie to only block his expansion path. drewbie's bases were each protected by a couple of towers/bunkers and a planetary fortress which make them almost undestructible for a zerg.
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Just move the crackling upgrade to T2. It isnt as strong as in BW so T3 seems too far away. On the plus side, Zerg gets a strong option on a lower Tier to deal with the terran midame forces.
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EPT
