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Yesterday fantastix dreamed up: so yeah T is definately fine, stop whining, i am a T player and i can tell you T IS NOT IMBA!!
lol (emphasis added).
On topic - I find most of the OP's sugestions very nice. I don't mind the depot, don't give a damn, really. I do give a damn about the ridiculous Terran splash-dmg fest though.
Marauders (splash slow), Hellions, Tanks T2: Thors, PF (Casters: Ghost, Raven).
vs
Baneling! Mutalisk (sort of), Ultra (sort of) (Casters: Infestor, sort of, which has a range of 6 lol)
Give me a break. Zerg need broodlords just to outrange Terran ground AA while Thors are available from very early on. Since they are incredibly slow however, a couple of vikings can take them (alternatively, T can just make more thors and repair them in the field). Muta micro against Thor? Yea that would work, were it not for the stupid pathing AI of mutas which will, eventually, clump together again, before they're shot down by Thors in 2-3 volleys. Generally however, a "muta surround" is not possible either, because the Terran will have covered around 180° with his MMM ball or turrets resulting in death if you try to maneuver.
Rax - fac+lab - armory, there ya go, takes 800/425 and 3.5 minutes for the tech and your 1st Thor.
Pool - Lair - spire - pit - hive - greater spire - broodlord evo, takes 1100/800 and 7m15s to build your first broodlord.
Catching Thors with ground units will hardly work unless you got heavily upgraded ultras and preferably infestors (or a bad T player) - lings die very quickly to the protective MMM ball. In the drewbie v IdrA game the latter didn't just 'throw his shit at the T', he was forced to make ultras because a) corruptors take forever to tech to and b) everything else dies within the fraction of a second. He used them to defend his expos, mainly, as taking down the PF which is being repaired by 16-20 SCVs and therefore almost unbrekable, is a very costly thing to try.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 09 2010 15:36 Dagobert wrote:
On topic - I find most of the OP's sugestions very nice. I don't mind the depot, don't give a damn, really. I do give a damn about the ridiculous Terran splash-dmg fest though.
Marauders (splash slow), Hellions, Tanks T2: Thors, PF (Casters: Ghost, Raven).
vs
Baneling! Mutalisk (sort of), Ultra (sort of) (Casters: Infestor, sort of, which has a range of 6 lol)
Marauder slow is not area-effect in multiplayer. It's only the single-player campaign upgrade that makes them slow in an AoE.
On August 09 2010 15:36 Dagobert wrote:
Give me a break. Zerg need broodlords just to outrange Terran ground AA while Thors are available from very early on. Since they are incredibly slow however, a couple of vikings can take them (alternatively, T can just make more thors and repair them in the field). Muta micro against Thor? Yea that would work, were it not for the stupid pathing AI of mutas which will, eventually, clump together again, before they're shot down by Thors in 2-3 volleys. Generally however, a "muta surround" is not possible either, because the Terran will have covered around 180° with his MMM ball or turrets resulting in death if you try to maneuver.
Rax - fac+lab - armory, there ya go, takes 800/425 and 3.5 minutes for the tech and your 1st Thor.
Pool - Lair - spire - pit - hive - greater spire - broodlord evo, takes 1100/800 and 7m15s to build your first broodlord.
You can't really compare tech costs, particularly since as you go into mid-/late-game, you're not going to reasonably be fighting on even economic fronts. Fighting mech cost-effectively is impossible. Period. This has been true since SC1, and while people bemoan the loss of dark swarm, the fact is that it honestly made almost no difference in the face of critical mass of tanks.
The way to beat mech is and was twofold. First, you have to have an absurdly large base advantage (5-7 bases against 2-3 base mech). You're going to lose every fight at 200/200, but on 5-7 bases you can instantly go back to 200/200, while a 2-3 gas economy limits him to rebuilding tanks/thors 2-3 at a time. The issues with this are partly a map issue--on maps like Steppes of War, going past 4 bases is almost impossible without taking a base that Terran can reasonably pressure. Second, you have to use your unit composition to direct his unit composition, because your composition can change more quickly and more smoothly than his. This is where I think most of the issues lie. In SC1, mutalisks forced a Terran to build more goliaths, and you could abuse that fact because committing to goliaths drastically weakened the Terran's ability to fight ground armies. Your mutalisks will lose horribly in the face of the goliaths, just like mutalisks lose to Thors, but you can mop up once you re-macro a ground army, and he can't switch as smoothly back into tank production. The problem is that in SC2, being overly Thor-heavy doesn't hurt a Terran's ability to fight ground armies nearly as drastically--Thors do incredibly solid ground damage either way, and while trading 2-3 production rounds of tanks to make goliaths could drastically hinder a Terran's ground army strength, 2-3 production rounds of Thors still pack a hefty punch when facing an all-ground army.
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I said it before and I'll say it again. This matchup will be broken (and don't u Terran players dare say a word, you have no fucking clue how imbalanced this matchup is. I played Terran for a couple of games and steamrolled over the Terrans who beat me with Zerg just games before, just because they suck so much ass and have no micro/multitasking at all) until either #1 the next expansion is released or #2 Zerg teching is made faster. Defending Thordrops / Tankdrops / Reaper harass / Hellion harass is just plainly retarded right now and can only be defended with certain units made available at T2 (drops mostly with mutas or infestors in case of thordrops) or with retarded BOs that put us so far behind in economy that it's not funny (like 13gas 14 pool 18 hatch just to get speed done by the time the first reaper arrives).
It has nothing to do at all with the balance of some units. Zerg units are not too weak. Tanks are not too strong. We just need to get to t2 and T3 faster. The problem at the very core is that every Terran who is not completely retarded will enter the midgame with a significant advantage over the Zerg player. And then it's basically out of the Zerg players hand, as most of the remaining match depends on how many mistakes the Terran makes or on how passive he plays.
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On August 09 2010 04:25 Vortok wrote:
Medivac heal vs. Roach regen. lolwut?
Valid comparison is valid.
But anywho, some good suggestions (Namely the Viking and Thor range ones I like), Supply Depots however I feel is fine.
Bunkers really should have an increased Salvage time and/or have Salvage give less minerals, in my opinion early game bunker rushing is giving the Terran a lot of aggression for almost no loss.
The MULE changes being suggested are interesting, perhaps if implemented we may see MULES being called down to repair occasionally :O
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the only ones that even should be looked at are bunker salvage and maybe thor range
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United States47024 Posts
On August 09 2010 15:58 heishe wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again. This matchup will be broken (and don't u Terran players dare say a word, you have no fucking clue how imbalanced this matchup is. I played Terran for a couple of games and steamrolled over the Terrans who beat me with Zerg just games before, just because they suck so much ass and have no micro/multitasking at all) until either #1 the next expansion is released or #2 Zerg teching is made faster. Defending Thordrops / Tankdrops / Reaper harass / Hellion harass is just plainly retarded right now and can only be defended with certain units made available at T2 (drops mostly with mutas or infestors in case of thordrops) or with retarded BOs that put us so far behind in economy that it's not funny (like 13gas 14 pool 18 hatch just to get speed done by the time the first reaper arrives).
It has nothing to do at all with the balance of some units. Zerg units are not too weak. Tanks are not too strong. We just need to get to t2 and T3 faster. The problem at the very core is that every Terran who is not completely retarded will enter the midgame with a significant advantage over the Zerg player. And then it's basically out of the Zerg players hand, as most of the remaining match depends on how many mistakes the Terran makes or on how passive he plays.
One thing worth pointing out is that a surprising number of the early-game Terran options can be whittled down with smart map design that doesn't blatantly favor these Terran options:
1) Tighter naturals allow for wall-ins that make it possible to block Hellion harassment without the need for teching. The only map that currently allows for Zerg wall-ins in a reasonable fashion is Lost Temple. Unfortunately, points 2 and 4 make LT just as Terran-favored.
2) Ledges like the ones on Lost Temple favor Terran harassment due to the range of Thors and Tanks, and the cliff-jumping mechanics of Reapers. The ledges have been imbalanced since the map's inception in SC1, and I have no clue why Blizzard though it would be balanced to keep them in. Even with community map-makers making balance changes, the SC1 version of Lost Temple was still 57% T>Z and 55% T>P.
3) Longer rush distances (or, alternatively, a shorter Spine Crawler build time) removes the need to invest too heavily in defending early-game all-ins before they actually happen. Giving Spine Crawlers a 50 second build time on maps with 30 second rush distances is just stupid. The bare-bones defense mechanic was pivotal to zerg in SC1, and neutering that ability to defend at the last minute is obviously going to hurt zerg in the early game.
4) 2-high cliffs or impassable terrain can minimize the area which zerg needs to cover against reaper harassment. IMO something needs to be done about this--it's just silly that the one race that doesn't have a build-anywhere mechanic is the one with the greatest need to cover the entirety of the cliffs around their main.
Add to that some maps with well-spread defensible bases that allow zerg to go up to 6 or 7 bases, and enough room in the middle for reasonable flanking to take place, and this matchup might look a little less imbalanced.
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On August 09 2010 04:54 AmstAff wrote:
why shouldnt u get back 100% for a bunk? i mean its static defense that does nothing without units in it. give me a crawler or a cannon and i dont even want this stupid bunk. every other building that gets canceled gives only 1/4 back, but they all have some function. its like getting only 1/4 back if you cancel some zerg egg.
do you play terran
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On August 09 2010 16:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 15:58 heishe wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again. This matchup will be broken (and don't u Terran players dare say a word, you have no fucking clue how imbalanced this matchup is. I played Terran for a couple of games and steamrolled over the Terrans who beat me with Zerg just games before, just because they suck so much ass and have no micro/multitasking at all) until either #1 the next expansion is released or #2 Zerg teching is made faster. Defending Thordrops / Tankdrops / Reaper harass / Hellion harass is just plainly retarded right now and can only be defended with certain units made available at T2 (drops mostly with mutas or infestors in case of thordrops) or with retarded BOs that put us so far behind in economy that it's not funny (like 13gas 14 pool 18 hatch just to get speed done by the time the first reaper arrives).
It has nothing to do at all with the balance of some units. Zerg units are not too weak. Tanks are not too strong. We just need to get to t2 and T3 faster. The problem at the very core is that every Terran who is not completely retarded will enter the midgame with a significant advantage over the Zerg player. And then it's basically out of the Zerg players hand, as most of the remaining match depends on how many mistakes the Terran makes or on how passive he plays.
One thing worth pointing out is that a surprising number of the early-game Terran options can be whittled down with smart map design that doesn't blatantly favor these Terran options: 1) Tighter naturals allow for wall-ins that make it possible to block Hellion harassment without the need for teching. The only map that currently allows for Zerg wall-ins in a reasonable fashion is Lost Temple. Unfortunately, points 2 and 4 make LT just as Terran-favored. 2) Ledges like the ones on Lost Temple favor Terran harassment due to the range of Thors and Tanks, and the cliff-jumping mechanics of Reapers. The ledges have been imbalanced since the map's inception in SC1, and I have no clue why Blizzard though it would be balanced to keep them in. Even with community map-makers making balance changes, the SC1 version of Lost Temple was still 57% T>Z and 55% T>P. 3) Longer rush distances (or, alternatively, a shorter Spine Crawler build time) removes the need to invest too heavily in defending early-game all-ins before they actually happen. Giving Spine Crawlers a 50 second build time on maps with 30 second rush distances is just stupid. The bare-bones defense mechanic was pivotal to zerg in SC1, and neutering that ability to defend at the last minute is obviously going to hurt zerg in the early game. 4) 2-high cliffs or impassable terrain can minimize the area which zerg needs to cover against reaper harassment. IMO something needs to be done about this--it's just silly that the one race that doesn't have a build-anywhere mechanic is the one with the greatest need to cover the entirety of the cliffs around their main. Add to that some maps with well-spread defensible bases that allow zerg to go up to 6 or 7 bases, and enough room in the middle for reasonable flanking to take place, and this matchup might look a little less imbalanced.
Yes, I agree with that completely. However, simply changing up the maps won't help with the weirdness vs Stalker/Colossi balls or Tank/Rine pushes etc, as the map setup doesn't change anything about their strength. In my opinion, as soon as the Protoss gets out his first colossus we should be able to get out our first ultralisk and as soon as the terran gets out the first tank with siege upgrade we should be able to get out the first Infestor with +mana upgrade. But of course that's not possible, as our teching path itself simply takes a longer time than that of other races, plus if we really do a fast tech of that sort we're very very vulnerable to early attacks, because we cannot fuel drone production (drones are needed for effective teching, after all we don't want to arrive at T2 with no gas / minerals at all) and defence at the same time.
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As a Zerg player, I don't think any of the Terran nerfs/changes/whatever listed by LaLush are strictly necessary. What is badly needed, however, is some flexibility in the Zerg arsenal. The Swarm needs more units. Specifically:
1) a T1.5 unit that can shoot up. It can be terrible at shooting up. That's fine. It just has to shoot up and be able to maneuver decently off-creep.
2) a T2 unit which can circumnavigate a wall-in. Again, this can be a cutesy tricksy unit. The point is that Zerg needs a threat that a teching opponent needs to think about.
3) a T2 unit which attacks while burrowed/cloaked, requiring the opponent to think about detection.
Toss in another serious caster somewhere in there and many, many problems vanish.
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Does anyone feel the Corruptor range is just absolutely piss poor? It just doesn't seem right that the viking has more damage output, more range, and the ability to drop down to the ground? The range difference is absurd. I was playing against this protoss player with his primarily stalker/colossus army vs my mainly hydra/corruptor army, and I just found myself weaving back in and forth trying to do some BW magic, but it was just impossible. He kept weaving in his colossus in response while getting some hits on my spine crawlers for free almost, then moving back out/moving stalkers closer (even harder when colossus can just stand above the stalkers). All I could think is how vikings could just tear that apart so much more easily and a much lower cost.
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Come on guys, you are asking for a huge T nerf when the win ratio between races is pretty balanced.
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Corruptors need to be able to do something besides kill air, because if you make a massive amount of them and kill off all the air, they completely useless. Take for instance Vikings, when they land they can destroy expansions and miners with ease so that even after you gain air dominance with them, their purpose can be greatly extended. The same is true to an extent with the phoenix.
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On August 09 2010 17:55 ANGRYAFRICAN wrote:
Corruptors need to be able to do something besides kill air, because if you make a massive amount of them and kill off all the air, they completely useless. Take for instance Vikings, when they land they can destroy expansions and miners with ease so that even after you gain air dominance with them, their purpose can be greatly extended. The same is true to an extent with the phoenix.
Wel blizzard always said that their design philosophy for air-to-air units was that after they had killed the air they would have some function (the viking and phoenix are great examples of it).
And it could really help zerg having another sort of caster, and a unit that you would use instead of just being there to not die against Air. or just as colossus counter.
The problem I see is that it's really hard to find something interesting/zergy for the corruptor (and it's ability that is called corruption) without making it overlap with the infestor.
What would corruption do (going from it's name) it would make units corrupt and let them fight for you, but we already have that.
What else slimy/zerg is there? latch onto a unit (like those things in the matrix), making it immobile/mindcontrol/ but then your again overlapping with the 2 ability's of the infestor.
Imo it would have been much better off making fungal growth more like plague.
And giving the corruptor a spell that for example would drop a fungus in the area making everything in the vicinity immobile. Or it shoots out tentacles making them immobile/whatever
It would make fungal growth less of a gamebreaking ability, It would give the corruptor something more then just being AA, and the combination could be very good, but it would also require both techpaths, and more 'micro' then just F-click
(and it would also work as a sort of defensive ability as Zerg, if you just got plagued, you better not push trough, but well it's never gonna happen, so not much point in discussing actual numbers)
on ZvT, on actual imbalances, I don't know anymore, but imo they should stay off terran except for a minor tweak here and there if necessary, it's a fun race with a lot of possibility, why take some of those away?
No, IF there are big issues, change zerg to be more on par, and rework them in some places instead of just doing number-changes to be on the same level as T.
If there aren't any imbalances, dear god, can I have a unit/upgrade to harass that doesn't rely on my opponent being a moron? ty
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Most of those suggestions are pretty solid. I very much agree with Thor and Viking range getting nerfed, along with Thor splash damage. I do think that Turrets should do less damage as well allowing Muta harass to be a bit more effective. I just think that Zerg has to play too reactionary in this matchup.
And Thor ground damage should also be nerfed. Leave AA splash damage, but at least let Zergs abuse Terran players for going Thors to counter Mutas. Thors rip apart Mutas AND almost any Zerg ground unit. Such an OP unit.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 09 2010 17:18 heishe wrote:
Yes, I agree with that completely. However, simply changing up the maps won't help with the weirdness vs Stalker/Colossi balls or Tank/Rine pushes etc, as the map setup doesn't change anything about their strength. In my opinion, as soon as the Protoss gets out his first colossus we should be able to get out our first ultralisk and as soon as the terran gets out the first tank with siege upgrade we should be able to get out the first Infestor with +mana upgrade. But of course that's not possible, as our teching path itself simply takes a longer time than that of other races, plus if we really do a fast tech of that sort we're very very vulnerable to early attacks, because we cannot fuel drone production (drones are needed for effective teching, after all we don't want to arrive at T2 with no gas / minerals at all) and defence at the same time.
Are you trying to remove every possible timing for P and T against zerg?
Zerg definitely doesn't need the help against protoss. Especially since you have players like F91 saying that ZvP is a zerg-favored matchup, and Idra saying that 2-base Stalker/Colossus compositions are fairly all-in, and that they should give way to more robust templar-tech compositions in time.
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United States22154 Posts
All the zerg are complaining about their inability to harass, while I grant that a tier 1.5 unit able to attack air is a necessity, the zerg have harassment techniques, things like burrowed infestors dropping fungal growth and infested marines on the enemy mineral lines, I´ll grant muta harass is no longer effective, but how about overlords with banelings on the probes or scvs? (I'll grant that maybe access to them should be faster as they all seem to require the lair which takes a while to get) but still the options are there.
(I apologize if my post seems incoherent I have a sever case of jetlag and may not be making sense)
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On August 09 2010 17:18 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 16:12 TheYango wrote:On August 09 2010 15:58 heishe wrote:
I said it before and I'll say it again. This matchup will be broken (and don't u Terran players dare say a word, you have no fucking clue how imbalanced this matchup is. I played Terran for a couple of games and steamrolled over the Terrans who beat me with Zerg just games before, just because they suck so much ass and have no micro/multitasking at all) until either #1 the next expansion is released or #2 Zerg teching is made faster. Defending Thordrops / Tankdrops / Reaper harass / Hellion harass is just plainly retarded right now and can only be defended with certain units made available at T2 (drops mostly with mutas or infestors in case of thordrops) or with retarded BOs that put us so far behind in economy that it's not funny (like 13gas 14 pool 18 hatch just to get speed done by the time the first reaper arrives).
It has nothing to do at all with the balance of some units. Zerg units are not too weak. Tanks are not too strong. We just need to get to t2 and T3 faster. The problem at the very core is that every Terran who is not completely retarded will enter the midgame with a significant advantage over the Zerg player. And then it's basically out of the Zerg players hand, as most of the remaining match depends on how many mistakes the Terran makes or on how passive he plays.
One thing worth pointing out is that a surprising number of the early-game Terran options can be whittled down with smart map design that doesn't blatantly favor these Terran options: 1) Tighter naturals allow for wall-ins that make it possible to block Hellion harassment without the need for teching. The only map that currently allows for Zerg wall-ins in a reasonable fashion is Lost Temple. Unfortunately, points 2 and 4 make LT just as Terran-favored. 2) Ledges like the ones on Lost Temple favor Terran harassment due to the range of Thors and Tanks, and the cliff-jumping mechanics of Reapers. The ledges have been imbalanced since the map's inception in SC1, and I have no clue why Blizzard though it would be balanced to keep them in. Even with community map-makers making balance changes, the SC1 version of Lost Temple was still 57% T>Z and 55% T>P. 3) Longer rush distances (or, alternatively, a shorter Spine Crawler build time) removes the need to invest too heavily in defending early-game all-ins before they actually happen. Giving Spine Crawlers a 50 second build time on maps with 30 second rush distances is just stupid. The bare-bones defense mechanic was pivotal to zerg in SC1, and neutering that ability to defend at the last minute is obviously going to hurt zerg in the early game. 4) 2-high cliffs or impassable terrain can minimize the area which zerg needs to cover against reaper harassment. IMO something needs to be done about this--it's just silly that the one race that doesn't have a build-anywhere mechanic is the one with the greatest need to cover the entirety of the cliffs around their main. Add to that some maps with well-spread defensible bases that allow zerg to go up to 6 or 7 bases, and enough room in the middle for reasonable flanking to take place, and this matchup might look a little less imbalanced. Yes, I agree with that completely. However, simply changing up the maps won't help with the weirdness vs Stalker/Colossi balls or Tank/Rine pushes etc, as the map setup doesn't change anything about their strength. In my opinion, as soon as the Protoss gets out his first colossus we should be able to get out our first ultralisk and as soon as the terran gets out the first tank with siege upgrade we should be able to get out the first Infestor with +mana upgrade. But of course that's not possible, as our teching path itself simply takes a longer time than that of other races, plus if we really do a fast tech of that sort we're very very vulnerable to early attacks, because we cannot fuel drone production (drones are needed for effective teching, after all we don't want to arrive at T2 with no gas / minerals at all) and defence at the same time. if you fix the early game the mid game problems will largely go away. if you're willing to risk hatchery first expansion and you get away with it you can fight in the mid game on an even footing, the problem is its so incredibly risky to try to set up a solid economy early.
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On August 09 2010 17:55 ANGRYAFRICAN wrote:
Corruptors need to be able to do something besides kill air, because if you make a massive amount of them and kill off all the air, they completely useless. Take for instance Vikings, when they land they can destroy expansions and miners with ease so that even after you gain air dominance with them, their purpose can be greatly extended. The same is true to an extent with the phoenix.
You can always go broodlords.
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I really don't understand why Z have been complaining so much since the beginning. Don't tell me that Z is incredibly hard while terran is so easy, it s totally false.
I have hard trouble against Z who go for fast expansion, defend it with spine crawlers, able to pump out like 12 to 16 drones in a row... then go for mutas, cracklings.. .
You think terran mechanics are easy ? Wow. When your turret timing window is like 20 sec, you have to pump 10 turrets to deny any muta agression... you have to build tons of production buildings.
And, hep. To build a supply depot you need to :
- Select a SCV
- B
- S
- Choose the build site
- Click
To build an overlord you need to :
- Select a hatch (use hotkey)
- S
- V
You can build 2 overlord in a row buy doing :
- Hatch
- S
- V
- V
That's 4 actions, while a T have to do 8 (if you count the build site selection as an action)
It s just fair that Mules are not a big macro concern, otherwise terran would become a turtling mechanic sim-city race.
And what do you do about Scan ? Lol. You NEED scan as a T, to take care of burrowed roaches, to scout the expands or units, you don't have overlords... Of course a Viking can do the trick, but an isolated viking is useless and costs very much.
For me TvZ is just balanced or at least it will become balanced. Lots of zerg are doing well against terran abusing their map control, speed, denying expand while expanding everywhere... flanking, backstabbing, forcing the opponent to build defense and turtle. On cliff drop maps it can be hardcore for Z but otherwise it s just ok...
And if Z macro is a bit harder with queens, the micro is just not so hard, with the nearly auto surround...
It's just ok. The rest are details.
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Here are my suggestions that will probably get roflstomped but I just felt like sharing
Roach Burrow speed increased to the same as the infestor.
Roach does not require tunneling claws to move while burrowed, OR Roach only needs tunneling claws and can burrow without the standard burrow upgrade. OR finally, put the roach speed upgrade and tunelling upgrade into one. Roach supply to 1.5 would also be nice but that won't happen probably, blizzard already stated they don't like that zerglings are .5 supply.
Roach burrow move is seriously underused atm, and for a good reason, zerg is the only race that cannot attack while stealthed, with the exception of infested terran which i wouldn't really say has the same effectiveness as banshees or dt's. Roach burrow move also requires 2 upgrades that take a shit load of time to upgrade, and generally by that point in the game, hydras are almost a requirement, making the roach burrow move much less useful.
The lurker coming back would make me cream, but because blizzard changed the tech tree from sc1, it wouldn't work, it would be so late game and would be effectively out when you want t3 units.
Another suggestion I saw somewhere else is that salvaging bunkers should only bring back 50% of the materials, I think that is a much better idea than the current system where bunkers are stupidly strong offensively
Apart from that, I haven't had any other ideas, I think their definitely needs to be major changes but I am just not sure where. Whatever those changes are they need to try and not break the current personification of the races.
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EPT
