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United Kingdom12064 Posts
On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords...
They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous.
Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. 
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On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive.
Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities?
When they do, then you can start comparing them.
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On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive.
Expensive u mean free scans ? lol what a joke rly.
I just watched a machine vs qxc recent replay , qxc beat him so easy with mass marauders medvacs few marines and ghosts the whole game , whereas machine did almost everything from baneling busts to muta harass to ultras but it didnt matter at the end.
I mean srsly ghost rendering infestors total useless and sniping ultralisks rofl as the game progress and terrans finaly getting some clue its getting easier and easier to beat zerg .
In north america only 2 out of 20 top are zerg and not in the top5 , yet nothing still
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On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them.
Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified.
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Terran is imo just way more forgiving than any other races.
Starting by the Macro features going over to the possible army compositions / bos etc. straight to end with scan.
Imo the Terranplay should just be forced to be more difficult, some changing in the Techpaths, harden the macro options etc.
Because if you look at the units itself, its not that OMG FUCK SHIT TERRAN ULTRA IMB0000RRR, they have just TOO many small advantages.
Just a bit more tinkering here and there, better maps and we got a whole new situation.
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On August 10 2010 02:52 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them. Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified.
No, you can't, because they work completely differently. In one sense, they are better, because they move/double up as dropships/etc. On the other hand, they're significantly worse, because this left them open to incredibly easy harassment.
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On August 10 2010 02:52 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them. Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified.
They're better and they're worse. I can't tell how many times I've pulled my hair out dealing with corsairs destroying my overlords and constantly supply blocking me. It then it just becomes a chore to baby sit the overlords.
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On August 10 2010 02:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:52 Mooncat wrote:On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them. Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified. No, you can't, because they work completely differently. In one sense, they are better, because they move/double up as dropships/etc. On the other hand, they're significantly worse, because this left them open to incredibly easy harassment.
Part of the trade off of having easy, cheap, flying scouts that lay out creep paths that speed boost all your units.
Never I thought I'd see someone complain about overlords being too weak, but here we are.
Also Comsat Scan is not free, it costs like 300+ minerals.
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On August 10 2010 03:06 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:52 Mooncat wrote:On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them. Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified. No, you can't, because they work completely differently. In one sense, they are better, because they move/double up as dropships/etc. On the other hand, they're significantly worse, because this left them open to incredibly easy harassment. Part of the trade off of having easy, cheap, flying scouts that lay out creep paths that speed boost all your units. Never I thought I'd see someone complain about overlords being too weak, but here we are. Also Comsat Scan is not free, it costs like 300+ minerals.
No it doesnt cost 300+ minerals.
That is the most flawed logic ever. Thats like saying every time i spawn larva it costs me 150hp.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
No, it costs you 62.5 HP, but likely less because tranfusion costs 50 energy and probably overheals. And yes, comsat costs you 240/270 minerals IIRC. Well, you will have 270 minerals less in 90 seconds and "costs" is the best word to use. What does it do if it does not cost anything?
e:typo
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On August 10 2010 03:29 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
No, it costs you 62.5 HP, but likely less because tranfusion costs 50 energy and probably overheals. And yes, comsat costs you 240/270 minerals IIRC. Well, you will have 270 minerals less in 90 seconds and "costs" is the best word to use. What does it do if it not cost anything?
e:typo
Its opportunity cost, which is entirely different.
Saying scan costs 300minerals over 90 seconds is like saying making a larva into lings costs me 2000 minerals because i could have made a drone that collected 1000 minerals over 20mins.
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On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive.
Once again, since when do all races need to have the same strengths? Do Terran and Zerg have a invisible scout? Do Zerg and Protoss have a "look at wherever I want" scan? Hell, Terran's detector also has freaking PDD. A huge game changing spell. I don't understand why Terrans don't build a Raven earlier when they're already along the tech path.
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On August 10 2010 03:37 cHaNg-sTa wrote:I don't understand why Terrans don't build a Raven earlier when they're already along the tech path.
Because most Terrans are noobs who are yet to learn how to own with Terran.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
kinda random but i was thinking a good fix would be to make the AA of the Thor upgradeable as opposed to being incorporated. That would make muta switches much more viable and cut into the T's ability to abuse hellion/marauder/reaper knowing they need to make a single thor to stop ANY muta counter.
Additionally I think EMP should be upgradeable. Why the hell is an ability like that free to begin with?
Another quick/easy fix would be to extend the upgrade time for concussive shells slightly AND/OR raise the cost to 100/100 so it at least effects the amount of marauders/speed of which you can get them.
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On August 10 2010 03:24 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 03:06 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 10 2010 02:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:52 Mooncat wrote:On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them. Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified. No, you can't, because they work completely differently. In one sense, they are better, because they move/double up as dropships/etc. On the other hand, they're significantly worse, because this left them open to incredibly easy harassment. Part of the trade off of having easy, cheap, flying scouts that lay out creep paths that speed boost all your units. Never I thought I'd see someone complain about overlords being too weak, but here we are. Also Comsat Scan is not free, it costs like 300+ minerals. No it doesnt cost 300+ minerals. That is the most flawed logic ever. Thats like saying every time i spawn larva it costs me 150hp.
any scan is 270 minerals you don't get to spend as quickly on more combat units or workers. There is a cost to it.
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On August 10 2010 03:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
kinda random but i was thinking a good fix would be to make the AA of the Thor upgradeable as opposed to being incorporated. That would make muta switches much more viable and cut into the T's ability to abuse hellion/marauder/reaper knowing they need to make a single thor to stop ANY muta counter.
Additionally I think EMP should be upgradeable. Why the hell is an ability like that free to begin with?
Another quick/easy fix would be to extend the upgrade time for concussive shells slightly AND/OR raise the cost to 100/100 so it at least effects the amount of marauders/speed of which you can get them.
The problem with all this fixing is that there is little to no statistical evidence of any terran imbalance at all. I challenge you to find statistical evidence before proposing fixes.
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On August 10 2010 03:06 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:52 Mooncat wrote:On August 10 2010 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 10 2010 02:45 Qikz wrote:On August 10 2010 02:31 OneFierceZealot wrote:
quick question. how come zerg doesnt have any invisible units? terran or toss can sneak dts or cloaked banshees into a game and its gg. but zerg can?? what burrow roaches? omg so cool! and also no more detection for overlords... They removed detection on overlords, because to be honest it was ridiculous. Do Pylons give detection, do depots give detection? No, Terran and Toss have always had to buy detection and it's usually quite expensive. Can Pylons or Depots be picked off by quick harassing units, constantly supply blocking the P or T? Do Pylons or Depots constitute a core part of the P and T scouting capabilities? When they do, then you can start comparing them. Uhm... actually you can compare overlords & depots/pylons and overlords are clearly superior to both of them, but if you look at the races as a whole and how they work, Overlords being "better" entirely justified. No, you can't, because they work completely differently. In one sense, they are better, because they move/double up as dropships/etc. On the other hand, they're significantly worse, because this left them open to incredibly easy harassment. Part of the trade off of having easy, cheap, flying scouts that lay out creep paths that speed boost all your units. Never I thought I'd see someone complain about overlords being too weak, but here we are. Also Comsat Scan is not free, it costs like 300+ minerals.
Can people seriously stop saying this? Scanning doesn't cost minerals. That's like saying chrono-boosting on things other than your nexus costs you minerals.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
AAH OK guys, close thread. Someone has arbitrarily demanded statistical analysis before any or all discussion can occur.
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On August 10 2010 04:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
AAH OK guys, close thread. Someone has arbitrarily demanded statistical analysis before any or all discussion can occur.
I'm not telling you not to have an opinion; I'm asking you what proof you have of the underlying problem.
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On August 10 2010 03:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
kinda random but i was thinking a good fix would be to make the AA of the Thor upgradeable as opposed to being incorporated. That would make muta switches much more viable and cut into the T's ability to abuse hellion/marauder/reaper knowing they need to make a single thor to stop ANY muta counter.
Additionally I think EMP should be upgradeable. Why the hell is an ability like that free to begin with?
Another quick/easy fix would be to extend the upgrade time for concussive shells slightly AND/OR raise the cost to 100/100 so it at least effects the amount of marauders/speed of which you can get them.
They had that for marauder shells, but reverted it... (I think they changed it in patch 12 and lowered the cost and research time in patch 13). I agree with your Thor upgrade thing. But if that happens, then turrets will need to be nerfed as well, or else changing Thor AA like that won't achieve what you want it to.
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EPT
