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On July 19 2010 23:13 Darpa wrote:you know what made me lol about this post. + Show Spoiler +Top 20 - Terran is dominating with 24/60
Top 50's - Terran is not dominating as much with 58/150. Both of those are approximatly 40% >  thanks for the data tho!
umm last time i checked 1/3 is .33333... which means ~33.3%. thats a whole 7% off. add another 7% to your bill that is if you pay any and you will cry
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On July 19 2010 23:16 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 23:13 Darpa wrote:you know what made me lol about this post. + Show Spoiler +Top 20 - Terran is dominating with 24/60
Top 50's - Terran is not dominating as much with 58/150. Both of those are approximatly 40% > thanks for the data tho! umm last time i checked 1/3 is .33333... which means ~33.3%. thats a whole 7% off. add another 7% to your bill that is if you pay any and you will cry
Uh what?
24/60 = 40%
58/150 = 38.667%
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On July 19 2010 21:19 4Servy wrote:
im 2-0 vs madfrog ^^ but its scary if its indeed him how fast he get's back to the top again. Im sure hell gona pwn soon in tourns if he keeps playing.
Please post the replays.
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Ok I am glad these stats are out so people stop bitching about "terran isnt imbalanced, they are not dominating any tourneys!!!" Yeah well like I said ages ago, that will definitely change and this comes to 0 surprise to me and I really hope they find some way to balance it.....
I wish people would stop crying about Terran imbalance, and do something about it...like figure out a way to beat it? I sometimes feel like these forums are infested with 12-year-olds that know only how to complain and not how to handle what seems like a overwhelming opponent.
Stop crying and practice to beat it!
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On July 19 2010 23:16 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 23:13 Darpa wrote:you know what made me lol about this post. + Show Spoiler +Top 20 - Terran is dominating with 24/60
Top 50's - Terran is not dominating as much with 58/150. Both of those are approximatly 40% > thanks for the data tho! umm last time i checked 1/3 is .33333... which means ~33.3%. thats a whole 7% off. add another 7% to your bill that is if you pay any and you will cry
LoL some people. I wasnt disputing that terran had a Higher percentage, i was merely pointing out how terran was dominating with 40% and not dominating with 38.9%. :D
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On July 19 2010 23:25 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +Ok I am glad these stats are out so people stop bitching about "terran isnt imbalanced, they are not dominating any tourneys!!!" Yeah well like I said ages ago, that will definitely change and this comes to 0 surprise to me and I really hope they find some way to balance it..... I wish people would stop crying about Terran imbalance, and do something about it...like figure out a way to beat it? I sometimes feel like these forums are infested with 12-year-olds that know only how to complain and not how to handle what seems like a overwhelming opponent. Stop crying and practice to beat it!
Isn't telling other people to beat it without offering any constructive input just as bad?
As to the stats themselves it'd be interesting to see what # the zerg population approaches the expected average. For example if there are less Zerg in the top 150 are we suddenly going to see a big surge of Zerg all in 151-300. This would probably indicate at some level zerg are being held back more than other races. Whether or not this mean an imbalance in inconclusive (tournaments and such are better for that), but it'd still be interesting.
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Amazing stuff OP. Like you guys pointed out we had trouble with the asia version (being in korean and all  ) I'll definitely refine the website after today. Through friends and people pm'ing me I have a few guys helping so it should go pretty fast!
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On July 19 2010 23:16 trucejl wrote:
umm last time i checked 1/3 is .33333... which means ~33.3%. thats a whole 7% off. add another 7% to your bill that is if you pay any and you will cry
First of all, please work on your math, and second of all, work on your reasoning skills. I cant really understand what you are trying to say anyhow.
how would this be a "small pool" of players anyhow? It is the top of ALL beta players, isnt it? How much larger do you want it to be? Gets even better with top players vs total population - if those numbers are right (Terran 30%, Protoss 39.2%, Zerg 27.4%) it is pretty OBVIOUS that terrans seem to be more favored, scoring way more top spots than proportionally expected. As the guy about me posted, terran have 30% players, yet almost 40% top spots..
I know lots of "casual" players play Protoss, so maybe we can explain their low success (proportional to the population) with this. But seriously, how many casual gamers play Zerg? All of you posted, zerg is ugly and no new/casual players like them. So who plays them? The hardcore gamers obviously. Would expect them to win more (than what proportionally expected), right?
Zerg is obviously fine tho, its simply that it is a harder race to master and all that good stuff -> Well, if Terran is easier to master, how is that balanced?
Still I like playing zerg (not the best either, upper platinum at the end of the beta). Yeah, I feel I have to play MUCH better than my terran opponent in order to win. Dont doubt we will see some nice changes soon after release tho
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On July 19 2010 22:29 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 21:04 MorroW wrote:
really amazing information but i dont think anyone should use it for arguments which race is best l<o<l actual important event games say 10 times more than this + Show Spoiler +So... whats happening if the latest events actualy prove this post (by lastest I mean in the last 10 days)? Cause I watched several casts this week and it seems that terrans [in general] was kind of winning with an easier time than the 2 other races. We've been seeing LOTS of good game by protoss and zergs and actualy the terran was ALMOST always able to come back and win. Here is a dramatized list of what a terran does in a game: - Bunk, get 1 or 2 expand... but don't over do it... bunking is more important - Scout... errr... I mean scan... - Cheese with [reaper, hellion, hellion drop, thor drop, [cloacked]banshee, [cliff] tank drop, reaver turret... don't forget 1 success full cheese and your opp is back at 0 probe/drone or at least he has to pull back from mining for X time] - Get this huge 200/200 equilibred force - Push but leave 1 thor at base so you can defend vs 12 air unit and most ground they can throw at you, but only if you feel your opp is going to try some counter-attack/base exchange - If you don't win the fight don't worry... you did enough damage to your opp so there is no chance of a counter-attack. - If in fact he was able to manage a counter attack... lift your important structure and defend. - Repair, rince and repete. yep that's exactly what I've seen in the latest events. Also, I played something like 50 ladder games yesterday (in the 450ish diamond which makes me 6th of my division) and spoke with EACH terran (even analysed some replays with a few that are now friends) after the game and asked them if they taught that terran was too strong and MOST of them said: Hey I just barely switched to terran... was zerg/protoss a week ago. Terran are freaking strong. [Might explain why there's alot of terrans on top right now] Fair or not... Overpower or not... I'm not qualified to decide since I barly have time to play more than 50 games a week (eventho i'm pretty solid) and don't intend on doing much tournaments/lan... [aka playing for fun], but I'm not a morron either and as WE can all see, terrans MIGHT be a bit too strong or easy to play. They have THE most build order options, they are not limited by creeps or pylons, they have the easiest way to scout/detect, they have THE strongest 200/200 army... and for all those advantages they only have to deal with a mobility issue. Hell, I played a gold terran yesterday. I beat him... the game lasted 36mins or so... it was actualy pretty hard eventho I had the game in control it took me 4 push of ultralisks/ling/infestors to finaly be able to kill the guy. I think that terran is a bit strong since other races has to be like 5 times better to win. P.S. I play both Zerg and Protoss at relatively high diamond. Altho I have less trouble dealing with terran as protoss... I find that they are still strong/on par. As for zerg... using mobility and blah blah blah... I'm sorry but SC2 isn't BW were hydralisks are moving like trains... in SC2 you need creep and any decend terran will use reaver and kill those tumors leaving zergs with nydus (which is almost unusable since they are spewing 1 by 1 unit and overlord drops which are being massively killed by thors/vicking/detect tower.... so the USE MOBILITY trend means = use speedlings!! yay!
While trying to provide arguments to your case, please try to remain factual and not exaggerate so much - basically all of this post reeks of 'I just lost OMG'.
The biggest problem I see is that people aren't even trying to figure out ways to improve their play. The thought pattern seems to be more along the lines of: LOSE GAME -> WHINE ON TL.
Just play the game with the mindset that there is no imbalance, this is how I've played since day one. If there really are imbalances, put your trust in that they'll be fixed if that's the case because statistics and results will back it up. Discussions are great, but these threads are 100% hate and whine.
There, rant over.
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Terran is good vs idiots. Most people are idiots. There's a reason terran still isn't winning tournaments. It's because the skill discrepancy between ladder and tournaments is huge. That's not to say the game is balanced on every level, but medium skill level balance is not the same as high skill level balance. Terran is definitely not the best race when played by the best players against the best players.
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wow almost 13k kids (accounts) in beta
not including the ones that didn't sign in yet during this phase
dayvie is getting rocked with a mere 60%~
he used to be like 90% lol
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On July 19 2010 23:46 HalfAmazing wrote:
Terran is good vs idiots. Most people are idiots. There's a reason terran still isn't winning tournaments. It's because the skill discrepancy between ladder and tournaments is huge. That's not to say the game is balanced on every level, but medium skill level balance is not the same as high skill level balance. Terran is definitely not the best race when played by the best players against the best players.
Last zotac was terran dominated, as was the one before that. Cool just won the WTA tournament this morning. There's a terran in the final of the ESL cup that takes place today
Which phase 2 tournaments are you talking about? I confess I haven't seen many phase 2 tournaments thus far, but everything that I personally know about terran has won
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On July 19 2010 23:46 HalfAmazing wrote:
Terran is good vs idiots. Most people are idiots. There's a reason terran still isn't winning tournaments. It's because the skill discrepancy between ladder and tournaments is huge. That's not to say the game is balanced on every level, but medium skill level balance is not the same as high skill level balance. Terran is definitely not the best race when played by the best players against the best players.
I don't really know where that comes from is it actually true, have your or anyone actually analyzed tournament results to see what the representation is like. For example, since the roach and splash damage nerfs* Terran has had 5/8 of the Zotac Cup 1st and 2nd spots (62.5% representation).
*(not meant as a jab at ZvT, but it's the last 2 big game changing things implemented in a patch)
Actually here's the full data from when I took a look at the past 4 Zotac cups:
1st place
Zerg - 0
Terran - 2
Protoss - 1
Random - 1
2nd Place
Zerg - 1
Terran - 3
Protoss - 0
Random - 0
3rd + 4th Place
Zerg - 5
Terran - 1
Protoss - 2
Culmulative
Zerg - 6
Terran - 6
Protoss - 3
Random - 1
Weighted scored (1st = 3 points, 2nd = 2 points, 3rd/4th = 1 point)
Zerg - 8
Terran - 13
Protoss - 5
Random - 3
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Take this with a grain of salt  .
The things that set Terran apart from Toss and Zerg:
Terran player:
"I want to Harass fast and not be all-in if it doesn't work"...
A: Head explodes because he has so many diffrent possibilities.
B: Sends fast Reaper(s)/Hellions or gets fast Banshee or gets fast Dropship with Hellion or Tank or Thor. Or maybe first sends a fast reaper, than drops some Hellions and after that drops a Cliff....
Zerg/Protoss:
Well... Yeah... Uhm... He has a Wall-In  ...
Terran player:
"I want an expansion but my army is a little small"... Sets up Tanks on his natural cliff, flys CC down, gets a PF, places a few Turrets.
Zerg/Protoss:
Plants Nexus/Hatch and gets overrun or cliffdropped.
Terran player:
"Let's expand and Macro up fast with minimal army" - Plants expansion, gets a Bunker, makes a PF, gets a fast Tank with siege and some Turrets.
Zerg/Protoss:
Dies to MM's or in the case of Zerg to a fast Banshee.
Terran player:
"I'm so skilled Protoss and Zerg just don't use their cool harassing and mobility abilites like Nydus worm"
Zerg/Protoss:
*Facepalm*
Terran player:
"I fended that attack of whiteout any problems, counter!".. Runs to Toss/Zerg base and kills it.
Zerg/Protoss:
Fends of Terran attack whtieout a problem, counter attacks and totally gets demolished thanks to Siegetanks/Wall-In/PF despite having 3 times the army.
Terran player:
"Oh noes, i forgot to use my mule energy"... DT's begin to smack his Wall-In and get instantly countered because the Terran was a retard.
Zerg/Protoss:
Lose several drones/probes to Banshees or DT's until they got an Overseer/Observer (and eventually anti-air in Zergs case) or type GG.
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Wow those r some super sad placements by Zerg players.....
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Kay my opinions:
OP says it's harder to get into diamond in the US because of more average games played and a higher ratio. This is of course not true like people are saying. They have more average games because they got like 2 days of beta before anyone else and the win ratio just shows that there's a lot of bottom feeders which helps the good players to win even more games.
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People are saying that you can't say a race is underpowered based on the amount of players using it. This is true, HOWEVER you CAN get an indication of it if there's very few players playing it in the top. There's an 1:0.8 overall T-Z ratio but in the top 50 that ratio is 1:0.35.
People are defending this and say "well, the zerg has a higher win ratio in the top!" I simply see this as proof that only the really good zerg players are the ones managing to make it to the top.
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On July 19 2010 23:25 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +Ok I am glad these stats are out so people stop bitching about "terran isnt imbalanced, they are not dominating any tourneys!!!" Yeah well like I said ages ago, that will definitely change and this comes to 0 surprise to me and I really hope they find some way to balance it..... I wish people would stop crying about Terran imbalance, and do something about it...like figure out a way to beat it? I sometimes feel like these forums are infested with 12-year-olds that know only how to complain and not how to handle what seems like a overwhelming opponent. Stop crying and practice to beat it!
Dude r u serious? U really think people have just been letting T mech just role over them on purpose? Of course people have been trying to figure out ways to beat it fool.
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If there was matchup/map stats on profiles like in warcraftIII, we could see much more useful statistics.
I feel like maps have huge effects on those statistics. But players keep complaining ONLY about theorical race balance. That's probably why Blizzard will let us thoses maps for a long time.
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On July 19 2010 23:25 Kiburn wrote:Show nested quote +Ok I am glad these stats are out so people stop bitching about "terran isnt imbalanced, they are not dominating any tourneys!!!" Yeah well like I said ages ago, that will definitely change and this comes to 0 surprise to me and I really hope they find some way to balance it..... I wish people would stop crying about Terran imbalance, and do something about it...like figure out a way to beat it? I sometimes feel like these forums are infested with 12-year-olds that know only how to complain and not how to handle what seems like a overwhelming opponent. Stop crying and practice to beat it!
No one is saying terran is unbeatable. I can practice and win more games against terran. So what? They are still op.
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On July 19 2010 23:46 HalfAmazing wrote:
Terran is good vs idiots. Most people are idiots. There's a reason terran still isn't winning tournaments. It's because the skill discrepancy between ladder and tournaments is huge. That's not to say the game is balanced on every level, but medium skill level balance is not the same as high skill level balance. Terran is definitely not the best race when played by the best players against the best players.
So call it unbalanced instead of op then. Maybe it's true that at the very highest level terran isn't op, but that just means that for 99 % of players it is. In that case the solution wouldn't be to simply nerf terrans but to change all the races to create a more even matchup through all levels. (or at least at diamon/platinum level)
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EPT
