Complete ladder data by race - Page 9

On July 20 2010 15:01 TTL wrote:
This is from blizzard forums,opinion about zerg and protoss:

<snipped>

i do agree most of the parts of this post. ! Discuss ;p

On July 20 2010 08:28 terranghost wrote:
Keep in mind that You off of those 3 bases assuming you have the gas for the army can make up to 18ultras similataneously while for a thor terran to even get 1/5 of that prduction capability he would have to make 3 more tech-factories and now the gas cost for both techs are the same excluding the possible starport to give the thors mobility.

On July 20 2010 11:43 terranghost wrote:
My point is for me to build a signifcant tech and production strucures to go mech requires the same gas as ultra tech (T3 zerg stuff is more of a time constraint then gas constraint).

If terrans can make a mech army off of 2 bases and tech to thors which I have already proven is as expensive as ultra tech seeing as how you will need multiple factories.
Also all I included was the gas of the buildings thors are 200 gas tanks are 125 and vikings if are 75 gas. So if the terrans can build a mech army and tech to thors while the zerg is teching towards ultras they will not have just lings.
Just for the sake of the example I will say the terrans build 10 tanks and 3 thors and siege mode (keep in mind all we are doing is talking about the units that cost gas I am ignoring hellions for the time being) that costs the terran player including the cost of the tech and 3 factories is 2500 gas. Infestors are on your tech path to a hive anyway so including the cost of ultra tech that is enough gas for 16 infestors plus the NP research your zerglings roaches whatever other units you are building should be able to kill that pretty easy if the terran moves out else just sit back and wait for your ultras.

Edits in Italic

On July 19 2010 17:18 Zignius wrote:
Isn't it really obivous that numbers like these don't say anything about balance?

Statistics are statistics.

All we can conclude from these numbers is that Zerg is highly underplayed and Protoss and Teran are somewhat overplayed.

There are far more different factors needed to conclude that a certain race or playstyle is overpowered than just the amount of players that use that certain race / playstyle. I think that this in particular has to do with the Flavor Of The Month type of hypes that every big multiplayer game, mainly MMO's, has everynow and then.

As far as I'm concerned all this says is that Zerg is a race that is either less appealing to people or, and that's probably the case, has the most inconvenient mechanics for new players.

The only thing I can't defend is the fact that this trend continues to grow towards the top of the league's and thus the people with the highest skill level. But the only thing that gives us is a slight hunch that Terran might be more effective in the hands of top players and therefore imbalanced.

But again numbers are numbers and allways will be numbers.

On July 19 2010 18:19 ooni wrote:


Example of bad reasoning becoming bad information for the public
The average games played/player and win ratios are highest in America, then comes Europe and finally Asia.
-> Based on these numbers, it seems the hardest to become Diamond in America.

If you stopped to read this you would have realised there are 0 logics and 1 conclusion.
High win ratios in US servers means it's harder to get into Diamond? Think about it, it just means there are bottom feeders: 'casual gamers'. The OP is jumping to conclusions. Two empty reasoning:
1. Ranking system is based on win rate
2. Not accessing the fact it's harder to win in Asia servers because of even skill distribution (a lot of people are at equal skill levels because there are much less casual starcraft gamers in Korea).

Lower win rate means it's harder to get into Diamond league.
BECAUSE Lower win rate ->most of players are at equal skill levelss.
If most of players have equal skills, it's harder to get to higher tier.
^Actual Reasoning

That means it's much harder get into Diamond in Asia than US.

The reason why upmagic got to diamond in 3 days in asia and you needed the entire second phase playing as Terran in US to get into Diamond is because he is better than you, in fact much better than you. Of course I cannot prove this since I don't know your skill level. ->am I jumping to conclusions, right now? Yes but at least it's logical.

I mean seriously, bad reasoning/misleading OPs make me mad!

On July 20 2010 14:21 bokeevboke wrote:
Hi. Maybe you might be interested in neutral/spectator's point of view concerning balance. First of all I am not biased at all. I never played SC2 beta. Watched a lot of streams and replays including tournaments. I know some will say that I have to play before I can say anything about balance. But believe me its not like watching movie and we can see what is going on and determine skills/efforts/tactics of the players in some degree. I am not going to discuss ingame details. This is just a general observation.

I have several reasons to think that terran is overpowered:
1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs (and protoss ocassionally) in threads, none from terrans.
2. Terrans are dominating latest tournaments
3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that.
4. Statistics in OP.
5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading.
6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in protoss or zerg games.
7. Games, where zerg or protoss are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake.
8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, Tester, WhiteRa).

I don't know how to fix balance but I know that problem exists.
Please, don't bash me. I really tried to prove myself wrong.

On July 20 2010 17:49 Dente wrote:
People seem to forget that blizzard wants to make an ESPORTS game.

On July 20 2010 21:15 Tamerlane wrote:


You seem to forget that most of Blizzard's realisations towards their objectives so far have been counter-productive in regards to the needs of serious gamers :

- connecting the community together
- creating a competitive arena for everyone
- the always-connected experience

I don't see why they would succeed in making SC2 an e-sports game until they fire those people who make terrible decisions.

On July 20 2010 15:41 Disp wrote:


Not talking about production capability at all. The fact that you can get the tech for your tier 3 Thor out in the same time it takes a Zerg to get hydra tech, a tier 2 unit, is silly. Ultras are just not even on the horizon for a 9-12 minute large Terran push with any combination of Thor/siege tank/MM/Hellion.

Ultras and Broodlords are awesome units and if there were a way to get them out earlier I think it would make mech a lot less intimidating to Zerg and a lot more feasible to deal with. Why does it take soooo much longer to get end-game tech than the two other races?

On July 20 2010 16:06 Grond wrote:


You are assuming both sides play defense until then with mostly minerals. While certainly doable for a Terran it would be suicide for a Zerg.

On July 20 2010 21:35 Dente wrote:
Lan will be added, chatchannels will be added, you will be able to switch servers (will be added), etc. They will do everything possible to make this THE esports game.

On July 20 2010 14:21 bokeevboke wrote:
I have several reasons to think that terran is overpowered:
1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs (and protoss ocassionally) in threads, none from terrans.
2. Terrans are dominating latest tournaments
3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that.
4. Statistics in OP.
5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading.
6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in protoss or zerg games.
7. Games, where zerg or protoss are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake.
8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, Tester, WhiteRa).

On July 20 2010 12:34 LaLuSh wrote:

The problem isn't actually not being able to tech up to tier 3. The problem is that terrans always push out a short while after you're on 3 bases. Any commitment to teching or switching to ultras/broodlords at this point will have you killed.

Additionally, tanks and thors are an actual part of the terran's main army. They're the integral, and most important part of the army that sets out to steamroll the zerg.

You cannot count 10 tanks and 3thors and completely disregard all the tier 1 and 2 units zerg has to have as a buffert. What you're suggesting with your arithmetics is zerg staying on 0 units and hoping terran is a dumb shit idiot who doesn't know how to scan or scout.

There is no smooth transition into tier 3 for zerg unless they are considerably ahead in the game.

Compare it to terran having to build 6 factories with tech labs and start producing thors out of them simultaneously as a "tech switch". That's what zerg has to do.

In Broodwar, the only reason zerg could pull this off was because of the defiler. Yet zerg lacks the defiler, but they're still expected to somehow magically survive and tech switch at the same time. Without a unit that can "delay" the terran push, this is never going to happen.

On July 20 2010 12:34 LaLuSh wrote:


Yes easy, lol.

While you were theorycrafting you forgot that zerg need to have at least 1400 gas and 2100 minerals stockpiled to build 7 ultras. And the fact that atacking with them before armor upgrade is researched is a waste of money (plus they take forever to build).

Good fucking luck surviving that long with your 10 theoretical infestors. Neural parasite is a trash spell anyway since it was nerfed. No sane zerg uses infestors for NP anymore.

The problem isn't actually not being able to tech up to tier 3. The problem is that terrans always push out a short while after you're on 3 bases. Any commitment to teching or switching to ultras/broodlords at this point will have you killed.

Additionally, tanks and thors are an actual part of the terran's main army. They're the integral, and most important part of the army that sets out to steamroll the zerg.

You cannot count 10 tanks and 3thors and completely disregard all the tier 1 and 2 units zerg has to have as a buffert. What you're suggesting with your arithmetics is zerg staying on 0 units and hoping terran is a dumb shit idiot who doesn't know how to scan or scout.

Correct math would be including all the roaches and hydras zerg must have in stand by. You know, the army that would actually stop a push from a terran player who isn't kind enough to wait for you to get your ultras up.

There is no smooth transition into tier 3 for zerg unless they are considerably ahead in the game. Whenever you stop building tier 1-2 units you're putting yourself at risk. And you have to stop producing if you want any substantial amount of ultras/broodlords. There's no way for zerg to treat their tech switch as "normal macroing". With tanks and thors being the bulk of the army terran can just macro like usual without even having to think.

Compare it to terran having to build 6 factories with tech labs and start producing thors out of them simultaneously as a "tech switch". That's what zerg has to do. Zerg can't get their "thors" without building 6 factories and starting producing from them simultaneously.

Imagine how much fun zerg could have with terran, if terran teching to thors would be as risky and hard as explained above. In Broodwar, the only reason zerg could pull this off was because of the defiler. In SC2 terran are probably even more cost efficient than in BW. Yet zerg lacks the defiler, but they're still expected to somehow magically survive and tech switch at the same time. Without a unit that can "delay" the terran push, this is never going to happen.

Don't even know why I'm arguing with some bronze league theorycrafter.