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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:18 Zignius wrote: All we can conclude from these numbers is that Zerg is highly underplayed and Protoss and Zerg are somewhat overplayed. | ||
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Me0w
Sweden52 Posts
On July 20 2010 05:11 oxxo wrote: Bad zergs sitting on roach/hydra vs mech and then complaining about it are pathetic. Broodlords and ultralisks are EXTREMELY good (if not OP). Use them. Try playing zerg and you'll notice that by the time your greater spire is up, you'll have siege tanks in your base. | ||
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
i think the lack of zerg at the higher levels is just a preference thing - not really a balance thing; most people just dont have the mindset to "fit" zerg. | ||
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JayMunger
United States30 Posts
Just because it says protoss next to your name, does not mean you have played ONLY protoss. I'm not sure why nobody has picked up on this. Example: You could be a "terran" player that has played 100 games, 34 with terran, 33 with zerg, and 33 with protoss and 0 with random. In this case 66% of your games could be with a race OTHER than terran, which is YOUR "race." This means that you can't do any accurate statistical analysis on this data set. What you need to see to try to make conclusions about balance is GAMES/race, and the wins losses for each game. You cannot dissociate win/loss data from race and hope to make any comments on balance. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On July 19 2010 18:07 Zombo Joe wrote: The main reason Zerg has a hard time is the maps. Too many chokes and not enough open ground for surrounds. Once better maps are released you'll see more wins from Zerg players. This above anything else is probally the case. Map balancing is probally harder than you would think. In sc1 there were no cliff hopping units. In sc2 there are cliff hopping units the reason maps are currently designed the way they are. Such as: metaopolis and Krivine is to allow this new cliff hopping feaure to be used. On July 20 2010 01:00 Konsume wrote: yep that's exactly what I've seen in the latest events. Also, I played something like 50 ladder games yesterday (in the 450ish diamond which makes me 6th of my division) and spoke with EACH terran (even analysed some replays with a few that are now friends) after the game and asked them if they taught that terran was too strong and MOST of them said: Hey I just barely switched to terran... was zerg/protoss a week ago. Terran are freaking strong. [Might explain why there's alot of terrans on top right now] The part I have in bold could be the very reason why people are arguing that the statistics aren't valid. Switched a week ago=== I switched for phase 2. I'm sure the win/loss ratios ect. are just from phase 2. So if people decided to switch to terran just to try them out for a little bit it seems only natural that there would be alot of terran wins as more people that actually had expieriance are trying the terrans out. In short people think the terrans are strong which can account to their win/loss ratio...But the number of terran players also accounts for this. On July 20 2010 02:23 Disp wrote: I think the main problem is the tech path for Zerg. Ultras are the logical choice to combat Terran mech, but getting the tech takes twice as long as Battle Cruisers/Thors/Colossus/Carriers and costs almost double the gas. If you can get to Ultras it's easier to deal with, but with constant pressure from Terran you may not have time or resources. I think if they lower the build time and gas cost of the hive so ultras and brood lords can be more in line with every other tier 3 unit, the matchup would be a lot more reasonable. Zerg are just stuck on tier 2 units for far too long and that creates an easy matchup for T/P to strategize against. Lings, mutas, roaches, hydras are very straight-forward units, with infestors being the only potential curve ball. Please explain yourself here, I'm no zerg expert but the buildtime of the hive seems to be the only factor here. You compared ultra tech with battlecruisers and thors as far as terran go and colossus and carriers as far as the toss go. Terran getting bc's keep in mind this also assumes the terran goes mech which would mean the zerg would want ultras. CC-->rax--->Tech-factory (125 gas)--->Tech-starport(125 gas)--->fusion core(150 gas) Total gas 400 Terran goes for thors. CC--->rax---->Tech-factory(125 gas)---->armory(100 gas) [plus an optional 100/150 gas for a reactor or no ractor port to give the thors more mobility.] Total gas 225/325/375 Zerg teching to ultras. Hatchery---->pool---->lair(100gas)---->infestors pit(100)---->hive(150 gas)---->ultra cavern(200 gas) Total gas 550. Now I am going to go on the assumption that the zerg player has 3 bases and the terran has 2. Which is not a bad assumption. So given that the zerg tech is about the same in gas if terran goes bc's and about twice as expensive if terran goes thors. Keep in mind that You off of those 3 bases assuming you have the gas for the army can make up to 18ultras similataneously while for a thor terran to even get 1/5 of that prduction capability he would have to make 3 more tech-factories and now the gas cost for both techs are the same excluding the possible starport to give the thors mobility. | ||
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
Top 20: 219 games compared to 157 (T) and 159 (Z) Top 50: 192 games compared to 165 (T) and 173 (Z) And so forth. The spread between Protoss and the other two races narrows as you begin to include more players, but this seems to reflect the general playstyle of protoss, with 4 gate and other "all-in" builds being really popular, resulting in shorter games, allowing Protoss players to play more. Interesting. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On July 20 2010 08:28 terranghost wrote: Please explain yourself here, I'm no zerg expert but the buildtime of the hive seems to be the only factor here. You compared ultra tech with battlecruisers and thors as far as terran go and colossus and carriers as far as the toss go. I want to answer this question because it is probably not obvious for non zerg players. For reference I am a low-mid diamond player (90 ish APM) and play almost only zerg, TERRAN: + Show Spoiler + Now a Terran player can (as per replays I have seen) make roughly: 3 Depots, Rax, orbital command, 3 marines, Factory, tech lab, armory => Thor. /this is a rough estimate, add a hellion or whatever, and make scvs pretty constantly (this build has one of the best econs in the game for 1 base play given the mules and I don't think the Terran needs to sack many scvs). The marines behind rax-factory can stop any early zerg attack (except maybe a 1 base roach at which point a quick siege tank or a marauder will suffice). Add on a starport (during Armory) and a medivac (during thor building) and you have a fast thor drop. Note that this build allows good early defense, a decent econ (for 1 basing) and the Terran player can now very easily produce any factory unit, any barracks unit and any starport unit except the battlecruiser (with a tech lab swap or building a new one with the barracks). ZERG: + Show Spoiler + The zerg player can go offensive early with a baneling bust or 1 base roach. If he does so he sacrifices his econ and the Terran player should be able to hold then kill him so let's leave those out. So the zerg goes a standard 14 pool, 16 hatch, 2 queens when he can and overlords. He needs 6ish zerglings just in case reapers or a bunker rush show up (a bunker with marines is a pain and the terran automatically has the tech for this). The zerg almost always needs a tier 1.5 option and possibly some spine crawlers (to avoid hellions if possible or an early marauder rush, note that this too is tough to scout because the barracks with tech lab is there and you only get 1 early overlord over there to sacrifice). Once we have that (and somehow guessed that we didn't need speedlings, most zerg would use 100 gas here too) we can get our lair. So we get our lair and our (kind and caring) terran player has yet to bother us. Now we are at lair and quite scared of what the terran may be cooking up, so we need air defense. This can be covered by an extra queen, but to avoid dying we are going to need either hydras (100 gas) or mutalisks (200 gas). Around here the Thor drop will happen, so hopefully having scouted this with our omniscience we ave made a few mutas or hydras (300 gas at least). Now that we know what is happening we make the great decision to tech to tier 3, which requires an infestation pit (100 gas) a hive (150 gas) and the tier 3 of choice. We can then start producing those units, hoping that the enemy hasn't made a viking or banshee and does not react by making one. The less wordy more mathy version: TERRAN: + Show Spoiler + For: Gas: Factory 100 2 Tech labs 50 Armory 100 Starport 100 Total: 350 Units accessible: Marine Marauder Hellion Siege tank Thor Viking Medivac Banshee Note that you have access to almost every piece of tech Terran can get as well as every possible attack by zerg covered in some way (the pieces you are missing, namely turrets, ghosts and battlecruisers have roles that are also accomplished by other units). Several of these things can also be built simultaneously (starport and armory, tech labs) and several can also produce units while the others are building (marines and hellions with a wall in). Additional is all within 1 building (Fusion Core, Ghost academy, Engineering Bay). ZERG: + Show Spoiler + For: Gas: Baneling Nest 50 Speedling upgrade 100 Lair 100 Hydra Den 100 Infestation Pit 100 Hive 150 Ultralisk Cavern 200 Total: 800 Units accessible: Zergling Baneling Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Note that I took every cheap option I could while realistically surviving (well not really you would need a unit other than lings and crawlers) until ultralisks (if you make a roach warren you need at least 4 roaches early for 100 gas). You have also conveniently not needed to make any banelings or hydras. The broodlord route costs 50 more and gives you access to corruptors and broodlords and mutas but no ultras or hydras. You have counters to several things, but lack any flying units and can get annihilated by siege tanks. Additional tech is pretty expensive (notably the mutalisk/broodlord) without giving you more production ability. You also have no burrow (probably required with the banelings) or baneling speed or hydra range (another requirement) or if you went roaches, roach speed. On top of that the number of things having another for prerequisite is huge even without the gas lock issue. Regardless of the strategy implemented by the Terran you get hit before tier 3 (Thor drop comes while Hive is morphing at the latest I think though I quite honestly never tested a fast track Hive because it is suicidal). This means you need an army and defenses not to mention you are vulnerable to harass (no walls here). Even with great scouting there is always the possibility that the Terran player does a quick swap and pops out a banshee or a viking or two so you have to be ready to lose a bunch of things or have counters up fast. The basic mistake in the post above is this: Hatchery---->pool---->lair(100gas)---->infestors pit(100)---->hive(150 gas)---->ultra cavern(200 gas) Because it effectively means you are defending every Terran attack with zerglings (and maybe an infestor or two for late attacks). I hope this helps explain why Zerg don't generally consider t3 to be a solution to anything. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
If terrans can make a mech army off of 2 bases and tech to thors which I have already proven is as expensive as ultra tech seeing as how you will need multiple factories. Also all I included was the gas of the buildings thors are 200 gas tanks are 125 and vikings if are 75 gas. So if the terrans can build a mech army and tech to thors while the zerg is teching towards ultras they will not have just lings. Just for the sake of the example I will say the terrans build 10 tanks and 3 thors and siege mode (keep in mind all we are doing is talking about the units that cost gas I am ignoring hellions for the time being) that costs the terran player including the cost of the tech and 3 factories is 2500 gas. Infestors are on your tech path to a hive anyway so including the cost of ultra tech that is enough gas for 16 infestors plus the NP research your zerglings roaches whatever other units you are building should be able to kill that pretty easy if the terran moves out else just sit back and wait for your ultras. Edits in Italic | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On July 20 2010 11:43 terranghost wrote: My point is for me to build a signifcant tech and production strucures to go mech requires the same gas as ultra tech (T3 zerg stuff is more of a time constraint then gas constraint). If terrans can make a mech army off of 2 bases and tech to thors which I have already proven is as expensive as ultra tech seeing as how you will need multiple factories. Also all I included was the gas of the buildings thors are 200 gas tanks are 125 and vikings if are 75 gas. So if the terrans can build a mech army and tech to thors while the zerg is teching towards ultras they will not have just lings. Just for the sake of the example I will say the terrans build 10 tanks and 3 thors (keep in mind all we are doing is talking about the units that cost gas I am ignoring hellions for the time being) that costs the terran player including the cost of the tech and 3 factories is 2100 gas. Infestors are on your tech path to a hive anyway so including the cost of ultra tech that is enough gas for 10 infestors plus the NP research your zerglings roaches whatever other units you are building should be able to kill that pretty easy if the terran moves out else just sit back and wait for your ultras. Edits in Italic Yes easy, lol. While you were theorycrafting you forgot that zerg need to have at least 1400 gas and 2100 minerals stockpiled to build 7 ultras. And the fact that atacking with them before armor upgrade is researched is a waste of money (plus they take forever to build). Good fucking luck surviving that long with your 10 theoretical infestors. Neural parasite is a trash spell anyway since it was nerfed. No sane zerg uses infestors for NP anymore. The problem isn't actually not being able to tech up to tier 3. The problem is that terrans always push out a short while after you're on 3 bases. Any commitment to teching or switching to ultras/broodlords at this point will have you killed. Additionally, tanks and thors are an actual part of the terran's main army. They're the integral, and most important part of the army that sets out to steamroll the zerg. You cannot count 10 tanks and 3thors and completely disregard all the tier 1 and 2 units zerg has to have as a buffert. What you're suggesting with your arithmetics is zerg staying on 0 units and hoping terran is a dumb shit idiot who doesn't know how to scan or scout. Correct math would be including all the roaches and hydras zerg must have in stand by. You know, the army that would actually stop a push from a terran player who isn't kind enough to wait for you to get your ultras up. There is no smooth transition into tier 3 for zerg unless they are considerably ahead in the game. Whenever you stop building tier 1-2 units you're putting yourself at risk. And you have to stop producing if you want any substantial amount of ultras/broodlords. There's no way for zerg to treat their tech switch as "normal macroing". With tanks and thors being the bulk of the army terran can just macro like usual without even having to think. Compare it to terran having to build 6 factories with tech labs and start producing thors out of them simultaneously as a "tech switch". That's what zerg has to do. Zerg can't get their "thors" without building 6 factories and starting producing from them simultaneously. Imagine how much fun zerg could have with terran, if terran teching to thors would be as risky and hard as explained above. In Broodwar, the only reason zerg could pull this off was because of the defiler. In SC2 terran are probably even more cost efficient than in BW. Yet zerg lacks the defiler, but they're still expected to somehow magically survive and tech switch at the same time. Without a unit that can "delay" the terran push, this is never going to happen. Don't even know why I'm arguing with some bronze league theorycrafter. | ||
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Tamerlane
Canada424 Posts
also, I agree with LaLuSh (specially on the arguing with the bronze players part - I'm diamond and I don't even know wtf I'm talking about), even if his name sounds funny! (sorry for the other quadzillion of posters - Day[9] exaggeration style deactivated - I just got home from a 13h work day and don't feel like reading, except for LaLuSh because his name currently sounds funnier to me right now than it usually does) | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
1.) Ultra tech is the same amount of gas as thor tech. (The fact that multiple factories must be built is the reason for this) The problem with getting ultras is the time for the buildings to build NOT the gas cost as it is the same as thor tech 2.) The zerg only having zerglings when the terran pushes out seems unrealistic as if the terran can spend gas on mech units the zerg can spend gas on units to hold the terran back or harass him to prevent him from moving out. 3.) zerg almost always if they are doing what they are supposed to will have more bases than the terran player meaning they have more gas. 4.) If you look at my edit I made a miscalculation you can actually buy 16 infestors so using your counter argument of 10 infestors(which is more than enough you could actually beat my theoretical terran army with less) That would leave gas for 5 ultras. Once you get the tech up. I'm not saying I disagree or agree with the OP and the idea that zerg is underpowered. All I am trying to do is correct people whose theories and proof are not accurate (or not completely accurate) | ||
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Tamerlane
Canada424 Posts
On July 20 2010 12:55 terranghost wrote: 2.) The zerg only having zerglings when the terran pushes out seems unrealistic as if the terran can spend gas on mech units the zerg can spend gas on units to hold the terran back or harass him to prevent him from moving out. wait, hold on there, you mean that zerg CAN harass a T ?? (I'm talking early/mid game) ok, sure, zergs can pop down a nydus canal at the mere cost of 1 thor and lose it nearly instantly (really, if you lose to a nydus drop, you should fix your scouting skills) zergs can also use mutas to harass the worker line for 2-5 seconds until the marines come in while the terran is...either not prevented of doing anything at all AND/OR laughing his ass off glings/banes bust is a good harassment combo though, as long as the terran doesn't have tanks (usually the case), hellions or marauders (ie. if he's teching straight to thors or something) I have yet to see an infestors harass though, maybe that is possible if the terran leaves his base opened without detectors, but that doesn't ever stop him from killing anything else the zerg has On July 20 2010 12:55 terranghost wrote: 3.) zerg almost always if they are doing what they are supposed to will have more bases than the terran player meaning they have more gas. you are right on this one, at least when the zerg can survive the push of doom (hint : it's called the push of doom for a reason) | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
I have several reasons to think that terran is overpowered: 1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs (and protoss ocassionally) in threads, none from terrans. 2. Terrans are dominating latest tournaments 3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that. 4. Statistics in OP. 5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading. 6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in protoss or zerg games. 7. Games, where zerg or protoss are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake. 8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, Tester, WhiteRa). I don't know how to fix balance but I know that problem exists. Please, don't bash me. I really tried to prove myself wrong. | ||
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Zignius
Netherlands33 Posts
I don't exactly know why you quoted what I said, but whether it's because of the fact that I typed in Zerg twice instead of one, or the fact that you agree with me, you might want to edit that because I also rectified the orignal post. Or maybe you don't want to, it's fine either way. :p | ||
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sk`
Japan442 Posts
On July 20 2010 14:21 bokeevboke wrote: Dead on, on all points.Hi. Maybe you might be interested in neutral/spectator's point of view concerning balance. First of all I am not biased at all. I never played SC2 beta. Watched a lot of streams and replays including tournaments. I know some will say that I have to play before I can say anything about balance. But believe me its not like watching movie and we can see what is going on and determine skills/efforts/tactics of the players in some degree. I am not going to discuss ingame details. This is just a general observation. I have several reasons to think that terran is overpowered: 1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs (and protoss ocassionally) in threads, none from terrans. 2. Terrans are dominating latest tournaments 3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that. 4. Statistics in OP. 5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading. 6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in protoss or zerg games. 7. Games, where zerg or protoss are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake. 8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, Tester, WhiteRa). I don't know how to fix balance but I know that problem exists. Please, don't bash me. I really tried to prove myself wrong. To me, it comes back to the Roach/Marauder/Immortal shit triangle with the Marauder being the best out of the lot. Good range, 125hp which only drops to 105 once stimmed, can stim for higher RoF and movement, low cost, T1.5 unit... the list goes on. Moreover, look at the miracle comeback games, almost all are due to Marauder play. I know this topic has been beaten to death, but if you compare the points on the triangle of shit, the Marauder is grossly the best of the 3 interms of cost versus effectiveness - especially against P (where the bulk of the miracles occur). | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On July 20 2010 14:22 Zignius wrote: I don't exactly know why you quoted what I said, but whether it's because of the fact that I typed in Zerg twice instead of one, or the fact that you agree with me, you might want to edit that because I also rectified the orignal post. Or maybe you don't want to, it's fine either way. :p Too be honest I was going to say something about it but I forgot what I was gonna say and accidentally posted it. | ||
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Slipspace
United States381 Posts
I'm really curious what players like LaLush think of making a change like this. It would give tier 2 zerg armies a much better chance against this "doom push." | ||
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TTL
65 Posts
Post by Cygnusx1 * USEast I have played over 2000 games with Zerg and other races over the course of Beta phase 1 and 2. What I have noticed playing the much tougher players is how Protoss are the most aggressive race. Why you might ask? 1 pylon can warp any unit on from anywhere on the map 1 warp prism does same role just mentioned dark templars great harassers and require your enemy to waste money on detectors (especially zerg 50 minerals,100 gas, and food count) high templar great for noobs who ball up there units void rays great for base and other structure harassments warp gates are able to spawn an entire army in a matter of a second (of course that's if and only if you have lots of warp gates) warpcate cool-down is only about 20 seconds- 30 seconds Collosus heavy counter against biological units Immortal heavy counter against armor Archon soft counter against units in balled units because it has splash damage. However, has overlapping roles with the hard countered units which creates the unit mainly useless for its resources Sentry has a great ability to use force fields to block out melee units to protect there stalkers and Colossus Mass carriers always wins in a game reaching close to the 1 hour mark Zealot strong against marines,zerglings, hydralisk, infestors, queens, and drones Phoenixes are great for sniping down mutalisk and Overlords(preventing your ally from having food) and Phoenixes can attack while moving while mutalisk can not. Therefore, with good micro phoenixes can own mutalisks any day. As you can see Protoss has the answer for about any given situation in any part of the game and very easy to take the easy aggression on the zerg from the begging of to the end of the game. Zerg has mass producing ability if and only if you keep on top of that queen spawning larvae and after a while it just feels some what annoying and frustrating for keeping up this vs Protoss uses one probe to build a gateway and then upgrades it to a warpgate and then the microing is over for the rest of the game and not to mention you can double click all the gateways at once and just make them all into warpgates and now set a control group like control group 0 then you just push 0 and warp your units into battle anywhere on the map that has a pylon The micro and macroing involved is so ridiculous easy compared what the zerg have to do. If I hot key my queen and set her to 0 well that's just 1 queen and now I have to hot key my hatchery that takes up another hot-key say for example 9. Now, I have to use additionally hot-key to just to build the larvae by clicking V then clicking on the Hatchery. Now, that was all just to take care spawning larvae and we haven't even built anything yet. Now, I have to use more hot-key just to build the unit I want which now I push S then hokey that represents the unit that I want. I have to do all this just to quickly keep up with someone who is using hot-keys and equally good player as well. Not to mention I have to hot-key more Queens just to spread creep over the map just so I can make my units move quicker on the map to be able to take the aggression and expand quickly. Also, I have to make sure to get all those speed upgrades or else I can't put that aggressive pressure as well. Now, about 15 minutes in the game I have used up all my control groups 1-9. While the Protoss player has only used probably 3. 1 for his Nexus to arbitrary amount of create probes, 1 for his warpgates, and 1 for cluster of units they have accumulated by pushing shift + the control group number they have used. Now, if you want to get more fancy you set a control group for a primary builder for the Protoss like control group 4 and now you push 4 and shift click a million buildings with their hot-key and now are way ahead of your opponent on the teching. I felt that it was necessary to bring out these key things about microing and macroing Zerg vs Protoss and how there is no payoff at all compared to all the work you must do to keep up with an equally good Protoss player. This is why I believe the top players in the US servers are Protoss. Yes, they are not the most overpowered race (Terran), but they are not the weakest (Zerg). Playing Zerg feels too much like a chore and if your not playing your best every single game or make one simple mistake like forget to not spawn lavare its GG. Also, not to mention that Zerg CONSTANTLY has to make a decision to MAKE DRONES or MAKE AN ARMY. No other race has to make this difficulty choice. Also, the only way you know if its safe to make drones is if you have take over the map with your creep,overlords, and taking over ALL the watchtowers. However, sometimes even knowing all that doesn't seem to be enough. Finally, what it comes down to it. The Protoss have way more strategies, easier micro and marco, and hard counters. While zerg have least amount of units in the game, the longest tech time to get to tier 3 out of all races, hardest micro/macro, least amount of stradegies (most units are attack move), have a chore of spreading creep, have a chore of spwaning lavare, and need to make sure to keep there queen alive or else they fall behind as well, and more soft counters than hard counters. Too many key factors are invovled while playing Zerg and after a while makes them quite unplayable for all these obvious reasons. I am not here to post this thread for people to agree or disagree, but simply here to state the facts of someone who has been Beta Testing for over 3 months now. Blizzard please realize all this and help improve the Zerg for the sake of a Beta Tester who nothing better to do than test your produc to its full potential and the many man hours to do so. Also, to note I am a Computer Scientist who test software for a living and I am not your average joe. i do agree most of the parts of this post. ! Discuss ;p | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
i planned not to buy the game because i didnt like the the balance, but from a reason i m forced to | ||
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