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On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Anybody that plays poker, which this site obviously is dedicated to, knows that its alot harder to win a 10 million player tournament than it is to win 10-handed right off the start. Event he world-series of poker doesn't save seats for the "pros", they have to tirelessly work themselves up every single year. Its no different when it comes to SC2. If I have to play ro512 (or its equivalent, because playing Ro128--> ro4 and then reverting back to ro16 is actually the exact same amount of opponents as starting off the whole tournament ro512, my chances are basically 1/512 to win the tournament. As opposed to the player that started at ro16 being invited, his chances were 1/16. Its not complete luck, and SC2 has less deviation of odds than poker does, but the concept is the same. Skill can only take you so far sometimes, you need a little luck, whether its in poker or SC2.
This arguments made my day.
Amazing.
I don't mind for invitational ONLY tournaments. I love to watch them.
But or you make it full invitational, or you make it free for all, but not a hybrid cz it's just unfair for those who are before RO/16 Invited players.
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On July 13 2010 05:28 Spidermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:21 Energizer wrote:On July 13 2010 05:17 Logo wrote:
An important thing to remember is that this is beta and the tournament are for beta. It sounds obvious, but it's important because it means that everything has to happen quickly. A tournament for phase 2 only has 1-2 weeks to run. It's really tough to run a comprehensive qualifying league/tournament or a large tournament in such a small time frame. So instead we have a lot of invitationals. For god sakes, stop using that "its beta" argument. Beta has nothing to do with how community-run tournaments are at now. Tell me, what main difference will there be between the beta and the real game (which will be released in 2 weeks)? I guarantee you anything you list will not have any direct impact on tournaments, gameplay, or any other such things. At this point sc2 beta is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get kinda game for release. It's beta = we don't have weeks to parse through a RO256 or what ever. Once the game is launched we can have tournaments spanning weeks to months... I guess that is more of a league though.
RO256 1 game (10-20 minuets) -> RO128
RO128 1 game (10-20 minuets) -> RO64
RO64 1 game (10-20 minuets) - > RO32
There. In 1 hour we went from 256 players to a more manageable 32 that can span however long the tournament organizer/sponsor wants. So your "we dont have enough time" point is mute.
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"Even then, he still reserved the last few spots for well-knowns and put a "star" beside the names of those that "deserved" it. I have no hard-feelings, I didn't even get a star beside my name until I pmed him... I really didn't care whether or not I had a star or not, to be honest, I think every single person that signed up for that tournament deserved a star... "
LOL Starcraft 2 tournaments = Make a Wish Foundation?
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On July 13 2010 05:37 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:28 Spidermonkey wrote:On July 13 2010 05:21 Energizer wrote:On July 13 2010 05:17 Logo wrote:
An important thing to remember is that this is beta and the tournament are for beta. It sounds obvious, but it's important because it means that everything has to happen quickly. A tournament for phase 2 only has 1-2 weeks to run. It's really tough to run a comprehensive qualifying league/tournament or a large tournament in such a small time frame. So instead we have a lot of invitationals. For god sakes, stop using that "its beta" argument. Beta has nothing to do with how community-run tournaments are at now. Tell me, what main difference will there be between the beta and the real game (which will be released in 2 weeks)? I guarantee you anything you list will not have any direct impact on tournaments, gameplay, or any other such things. At this point sc2 beta is a what-you-see-is-what-you-get kinda game for release. It's beta = we don't have weeks to parse through a RO256 or what ever. Once the game is launched we can have tournaments spanning weeks to months... I guess that is more of a league though. RO256 1 game (10-20 minuets) -> RO128 RO128 1 game (10-20 minuets) -> RO64 RO64 1 game (10-20 minuets) - > RO32 There. In 1 hour we went from 256 players to a more manageable 32 that can span however long the tournament organizer/sponsor wants. So your "we dont have enough time" point is mute.
imo most tournaments should change their format to have every round as BO3. Makes it less luck oriented when there is a bigger pool of good players. Yes, it takes longer, but it's well worth it if you want to establish a "scene."
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Calgary25990 Posts
On July 13 2010 05:22 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:13 Chill wrote:
Okay I reread your OP and there's a bad taste of jealousy in it. You keep using terms like "without lifting a finger" and "spoon fed". How do you think the invited players got their names out? By winning a lot of games. That's part of becoming known in any scene - pulling yourself up by your bootstraps to make a name for yourself. Nobody is denying that people like me don't want to be people like them. Why wouldn't we be jealous? Aren't you envious that you don't get glory? Its normal. Hell, I'd love to be invited to be in the top ro16 while the others had to duke it out, doesn't make my feelings of it any unfair. Yeah, I'd like an advantage stacked against my opponent, wouldn't you? Alot of the top players are there because of the past. Alot of the top players I have beat. Think of players like Capoch, who have beat Idra and White-ra all in a days work on the ladder. Yet not many people know who they are, but I do. I just think, there should be more chance for glory to those that don't have it yet. Not 75% stacked bracket. Inviting a few people and having them enter in, even the second round, of the bracket, nothing wrong with that. Inviting 75% of the final bracket, then creating, what is basically an extra tournament, is IMO more work and is actually 2 different tournaments with a single prize pool where the first 12 invitees have an "absurd' advantage over the rest. How can they not win? Think about it.
I am not envious of something I don't deserve. They are known for a reason. You and I haven't done anything to put us in the same playing field, so we aren't known. When you do something like they did, you too will be known. If you accept there is an advantage why don't you look to put yourself in that advantageous situation instead of fighting the system?
I can see what you are saying but I don't agree with it. Everyone knows the Ro512 format is the most fair because everyone plays by the same rules. However, it's also the most work. I think it's fine if tournament organizers sacrifice some equality in the name of increasing efficiency. There are some added side effects which I've listed before.
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On July 13 2010 05:32 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:28 KiF1rE wrote:On July 13 2010 05:13 Chill wrote:
Okay I reread your OP and there's a bad taste of jealousy in it. You keep using terms like "without lifting a finger" and "spoon fed". How do you think the invited players got their names out? By winning a lot of games. That's part of becoming known in any scene - pulling yourself up by your bootstraps to make a name for yourself. hmmm... the issue that i have is a vast majority of players in the SC2 scene being invited, did not work they're way up through SC2. they did it in other games... and according to a few tournament organizers here, previous accomplishments in other games dont matter, at least thats what i was told lol...(see the iccup tv tourney thread lol, signed up really early, like the first 10 or so and still waiting to be put into the "Open" sign up portion of the tourney several months later) but in reality what have a vast majority of popular SC2 players done in SC2 before invitationals? just about nothing. there was no working their way up... they played a previous game and then marketed themselves for SC2. but that is why i respect players like Huk alot more. Okay, so then how did they get known? You are saying "The problem is known players did nothing to get known" which is completely irrational. Of course they did something, via SC1 or other games or streaming or winning SC2 tournaments. If you don't choose to accept those as valid reasons then I guess you can boycott the consensus of who the best players are, but that won't do you much good.
Getting back to the point, invitationals are FINE, just not so many of them. Its like its a recurring theme, that anybody that wants to make a new tournament, apparently has to reserve seats or else apparently its a shit-tournament. This is a sad mentality.
If someone makes a tournament and has a prize pool, that is already a worthy sacrifice to the community and should be respected and regarded as such. They shouldn't have to invite these "awesome players" just to draw attention to their tournament or have it not being labelled as "shit".
Tournaments that don't have well-known's aren't shit-tournaments. If there weren't so many invitationals, people would stop thinking that. Its both disrespectful to the participants and to the tournament organizer. Why would there be alot of tournaments sprung up from small-beginnings if all you do is shit on the organizers for not having "big names" and instead having a "first come first serve with a height requirement" (which the latter is much more fair).
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United States22883 Posts
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention.
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On July 13 2010 05:41 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:32 Chill wrote:On July 13 2010 05:28 KiF1rE wrote:On July 13 2010 05:13 Chill wrote:
Okay I reread your OP and there's a bad taste of jealousy in it. You keep using terms like "without lifting a finger" and "spoon fed". How do you think the invited players got their names out? By winning a lot of games. That's part of becoming known in any scene - pulling yourself up by your bootstraps to make a name for yourself. hmmm... the issue that i have is a vast majority of players in the SC2 scene being invited, did not work they're way up through SC2. they did it in other games... and according to a few tournament organizers here, previous accomplishments in other games dont matter, at least thats what i was told lol...(see the iccup tv tourney thread lol, signed up really early, like the first 10 or so and still waiting to be put into the "Open" sign up portion of the tourney several months later) but in reality what have a vast majority of popular SC2 players done in SC2 before invitationals? just about nothing. there was no working their way up... they played a previous game and then marketed themselves for SC2. but that is why i respect players like Huk alot more. Okay, so then how did they get known? You are saying "The problem is known players did nothing to get known" which is completely irrational. Of course they did something, via SC1 or other games or streaming or winning SC2 tournaments. If you don't choose to accept those as valid reasons then I guess you can boycott the consensus of who the best players are, but that won't do you much good. Getting back to the point, invitationals are FINE, just not so many of them. Its like its a recurring theme, that anybody that wants to make a new tournament, apparently has to reserve seats or else apparently its a shit-tournament. This is a sad mentality. If someone makes a tournament and has a prize pool, that is already a worthy sacrifice to the community and should be respected and regarded as such. They shouldn't have to invite these "awesome players" just to draw attention to their tournament or have it not being labelled as "shit". Tournaments that don't have well-known's aren't shit-tournaments. If there weren't so many invitationals, people would stop thinking that. Its both disrespectful to the participants and to the tournament organizer. Why would there be alot of tournaments sprung up from small-beginnings if all you do is shit on the organizers for not having "big names" and instead having a "first come first serve with a height requirement" (which the latter is much more fair).
"I cant enter US Open, because I havent played and won a lot of smaller tournaments, thats bullshit" That is what you come off as.
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On July 13 2010 05:32 Chill wrote:
Okay, so then how did they get known? You are saying "The problem is known players did nothing to get known" which is completely irrational. Of course they did something, via SC1 or other games or streaming or winning SC2 tournaments. If you don't choose to accept those as valid reasons then I guess you can boycott the consensus of who the best players are, but that won't do you much good.
im saying they did nothing in "SC2".... Via sc1 or other games doesnt matter according to alot of tournament hosts, its all about being in the in crowd and popular.
when you mention, we havent done anything what does that mean? ive won over 30 tournaments in my gaming career 3 top 3 wcg national places and a whole bunch of other achievements...
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On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention.
what some crazy people seem to want is a "ruling class elite" of "professional known players" that are auto-invited to every tourney and do not have to work their way in.
That is crazy.
the good players will qualify if they can work their way through, but all these invite tourneys are lmao. Same damn people over and over again, auto-qualified.
It'd be like auto qualifying nadal and federer for every single semi-finals of grandslams in tennis. That would be fucking ridiculous. Yes, they are that good that they will most *likely* get there, but that is the damn point, it's competition, and others have the opportunity to beat them.
they are not "invited" to the semi-finals just because they are uber good. They worked their way up, and happen to be good enough to get that far every time in tournaments.
edit: just to re-iterate what i said all beta long, sC2 beta = hype yourself up wagon, that'll get you into tourneys =/ it's sad that you cannot just rely on skill alone right now. Hopefully this changes after the game is released.
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On July 13 2010 05:48 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention. what some crazy people seem to want is a "ruling class elite" of "professional known players" that are auto-invited to every tourney and do not have to work their way in. That is crazy. the good players will qualify if they can work their way through, but all these invite tourneys are lmao. Same damn people over and over again, auto-qualified. It'd be like auto qualifying nadal and federer for every single semi-finals of grandslams in tennis. That would be fucking ridiculous. Yes, they are that good that they will most *likely* get there, but that is the damn point, it's competition, and others have the opportunity to beat them. they are not "invited" to the semi-finals just because they are uber good. They worked their way up, and happen to be good enough to get that far every time in tournaments.
Eh, you realise tennis players are seeded right?
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Calgary25990 Posts
On July 13 2010 05:41 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:32 Chill wrote:On July 13 2010 05:28 KiF1rE wrote:On July 13 2010 05:13 Chill wrote:
Okay I reread your OP and there's a bad taste of jealousy in it. You keep using terms like "without lifting a finger" and "spoon fed". How do you think the invited players got their names out? By winning a lot of games. That's part of becoming known in any scene - pulling yourself up by your bootstraps to make a name for yourself. hmmm... the issue that i have is a vast majority of players in the SC2 scene being invited, did not work they're way up through SC2. they did it in other games... and according to a few tournament organizers here, previous accomplishments in other games dont matter, at least thats what i was told lol...(see the iccup tv tourney thread lol, signed up really early, like the first 10 or so and still waiting to be put into the "Open" sign up portion of the tourney several months later) but in reality what have a vast majority of popular SC2 players done in SC2 before invitationals? just about nothing. there was no working their way up... they played a previous game and then marketed themselves for SC2. but that is why i respect players like Huk alot more. Okay, so then how did they get known? You are saying "The problem is known players did nothing to get known" which is completely irrational. Of course they did something, via SC1 or other games or streaming or winning SC2 tournaments. If you don't choose to accept those as valid reasons then I guess you can boycott the consensus of who the best players are, but that won't do you much good. Getting back to the point, invitationals are FINE, just not so many of them. Its like its a recurring theme, that anybody that wants to make a new tournament, apparently has to reserve seats or else apparently its a shit-tournament. This is a sad mentality. If someone makes a tournament and has a prize pool, that is already a worthy sacrifice to the community and should be respected and regarded as such. They shouldn't have to invite these "awesome players" just to draw attention to their tournament or have it not being labelled as "shit". Tournaments that don't have well-known's aren't shit-tournaments. If there weren't so many invitationals, people would stop thinking that. Its both disrespectful to the participants and to the tournament organizer. Why would there be alot of tournaments sprung up from small-beginnings if all you do is shit on the organizers for not having "big names" and instead having a "first come first serve with a height requirement" (which the latter is much more fair).
Ugh. Don't you see how wrong this argument is? If you accept something is okay then you don't get to dictate the proportion of them!
"Templar are fine but not if you make so many of them."
"Throwing is good but you can't do it so much."
"This tournament format is good but don't do it so much."
If it's the ideal format, and it's perceived as acceptable, of course the majority of leagues will follow it.
I think your post's tone should follow more of a personal wishlist as opposed to taking the tone of chastising tournament organizers for not providing your personal ideal ratio of invite : open tournaments.
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On July 13 2010 05:49 Neobick wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:48 avilo wrote:On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention. what some crazy people seem to want is a "ruling class elite" of "professional known players" that are auto-invited to every tourney and do not have to work their way in. That is crazy. the good players will qualify if they can work their way through, but all these invite tourneys are lmao. Same damn people over and over again, auto-qualified. It'd be like auto qualifying nadal and federer for every single semi-finals of grandslams in tennis. That would be fucking ridiculous. Yes, they are that good that they will most *likely* get there, but that is the damn point, it's competition, and others have the opportunity to beat them. they are not "invited" to the semi-finals just because they are uber good. They worked their way up, and happen to be good enough to get that far every time in tournaments. Eh, you realise tennis players are seeded right?
Yes, that's not the point. Seeding is perfectly fine, because it makes it so high profile players (that are recognized as such) do not end up playing each other in the first rounds.
What is NOT fine, is auto-inviting those same players all the way into the semis for free.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On July 13 2010 05:47 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:32 Chill wrote:
Okay, so then how did they get known? You are saying "The problem is known players did nothing to get known" which is completely irrational. Of course they did something, via SC1 or other games or streaming or winning SC2 tournaments. If you don't choose to accept those as valid reasons then I guess you can boycott the consensus of who the best players are, but that won't do you much good. im saying they did nothing in "SC2".... Via sc1 or other games doesnt matter according to alot of tournament hosts, its all about being in the in crowd and popular.
Yep, I 100% agree. If we want to argue about that, as in "tournament hosts should be more careful about who they invite" then I think that would be a much more interesting conversation.
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On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention.
In that case, then what is the merit in saying "I won the invitational of 2010"... ooooo big deal, it was already 90% over by the time you got to the ro16... "
But thats not the case, instead, its a snowball effect. Those that got invited, are now well known just for being invited (which has been a trend all throughout Beta). TLO is no exception, he's great, but he won ONE tournament and automatically he has a fan-club and based on that he is invited to everything that exists. Yeah, he's a great player, and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a fan club, but I don't recall him winning tournaments en-mass to warrant being called "Top 16 player of the world" and given an invite to everything.
Lets say Jibba was invited to every tournament after he won a tournament early beta. He was literally put into ro16 every tournament. According to the statistics, he would finish in the top 16 every single time, even though he lost first round every time. Still top 16 in the world according to alot of people.
TLO is a great player, I'm not saying this is the case, but when you get invited to something over and over, you are automatically a great player because you got invited, not necessarily because you are a great player.
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On July 13 2010 05:50 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:49 Neobick wrote:On July 13 2010 05:48 avilo wrote:On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention. what some crazy people seem to want is a "ruling class elite" of "professional known players" that are auto-invited to every tourney and do not have to work their way in. That is crazy. the good players will qualify if they can work their way through, but all these invite tourneys are lmao. Same damn people over and over again, auto-qualified. It'd be like auto qualifying nadal and federer for every single semi-finals of grandslams in tennis. That would be fucking ridiculous. Yes, they are that good that they will most *likely* get there, but that is the damn point, it's competition, and others have the opportunity to beat them. they are not "invited" to the semi-finals just because they are uber good. They worked their way up, and happen to be good enough to get that far every time in tournaments. Eh, you realise tennis players are seeded right? Yes, that's not the point. Seeding is perfectly fine, because it makes it so high profile players (that are recognized as such) do not end up playing each other in the first rounds. What is NOT fine, is auto-inviting those same players all the way into the semis for free.
No player is auto-invited to the semis. People are auto-invited to the round of 16. OSL does the same thing. People should be happy that you dont need pro-licences and paying to play in tournaments.
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Hmm I'd like to add my few cents to this:
Firstly, you don't have some god-given right to participate in every tournament  Chill gave you the reasons that invite tourneys are run. You have to keep in mind that TO's are doing this in their SPARE TIME. Nobody is making a living running tournaments, or if I'm wrong and there is someone that is, chances are they're the kind of people running large open events.
Secondly, this is still a beta. Most TO's are running events to help generate publicity for the game. To do that you need to run an event people will WATCH. How many people do you think watch first round zotac cup matches? How many people do you think watch the semifinals and finals?
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On July 13 2010 05:52 Neobick wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:50 avilo wrote:On July 13 2010 05:49 Neobick wrote:On July 13 2010 05:48 avilo wrote:On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention. what some crazy people seem to want is a "ruling class elite" of "professional known players" that are auto-invited to every tourney and do not have to work their way in. That is crazy. the good players will qualify if they can work their way through, but all these invite tourneys are lmao. Same damn people over and over again, auto-qualified. It'd be like auto qualifying nadal and federer for every single semi-finals of grandslams in tennis. That would be fucking ridiculous. Yes, they are that good that they will most *likely* get there, but that is the damn point, it's competition, and others have the opportunity to beat them. they are not "invited" to the semi-finals just because they are uber good. They worked their way up, and happen to be good enough to get that far every time in tournaments. Eh, you realise tennis players are seeded right? Yes, that's not the point. Seeding is perfectly fine, because it makes it so high profile players (that are recognized as such) do not end up playing each other in the first rounds. What is NOT fine, is auto-inviting those same players all the way into the semis for free. No player is auto-invited to the semis. People are auto-invited to the round of 16. OSL does the same thing. People should be happy that you dont need pro-licences and paying to play in tournaments.
Stop harping on things not related to the point at all. And once again, you do realize that the players auto-invited to the round of 16 get to FREELY skip over the ro128 in lots of these tournaments lately?
They are invited their, rather than having to work their way through the draw. Those are not as bad as some tournaments that were PURE invite only.
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On July 13 2010 05:51 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 05:43 Jibba wrote:
ESPORTS, just like real sports, are not built on the foundation of competition > all. They work because sponsors want to give out money in return for advertising. Hevad and EG tournies are about the only exception, and as you've noticed, their payout is much lower than others.
So sponsors want attention and players want money. Inviting the best known players is the best way to draw lots of attention. In that case, then what is the merit in saying "I won the invitational of 2010"... ooooo big deal, it was already 90% over by the time you got to the ro16... " But thats not the case, instead, its a snowball effect. Those that got invited, are now well known just for being invited (which has been a trend all throughout Beta). TLO is no exception, he's great, but he won ONE tournament and automatically he has a fan-club and based on that he is invited to everything that exists. Yeah, he's a great player, and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a fan club, but I don't recall him winning tournaments en-mass to warrant being called "Top 16 player of the world" and given an invite to everything. Lets say Jibba was invited to every tournament after he won a tournament early beta. He was literally put into ro16 every tournament. According to the statistics, he would finish in the top 16 every single time, even though he lost first round every time. Still top 16 in the world according to alot of people. TLO is a great player, I'm not saying this is the case, but when you get invited to something over and over, you are automatically a great player because you got invited, not necessarily because you are a great player.
A lot of golf championships are invitationals in the format that you describe. People have to qualify to the event by attending proxy events, while certain players (past winners and top X in the world) get automatic berths to the field. It doesn't cheapen those tournaments in the least. It gives anyone a chance to participate and win, but doesn't unduly overburden the clearly top players in the world which draw all the crowds.
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On July 13 2010 05:52 Neobick wrote:
No player is auto-invited to the semis. People are auto-invited to the round of 16. OSL does the same thing. People should be happy that you dont need pro-licences and paying to play in tournaments.
LOL, Are you fucking serious?
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EPT
