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On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that...
This is unbelievable arrogance. Who are YOU to judge how hard other people have worked to get to the point where they are? Yes, it's a matter of recognition, and moreover it's a matter of consistency. You beat someone who was invited somewhere else? Go do it again until you're known. People will just write you off as a fluke win until you stop whining about the situation and start posting consistent results.
But I guess that's not the point of this post. The tournament structure IS what it is, and until there's signs point to a lot more background talent out there consistently taking invite-onlys out in tournaments the issue isn't worth discussing.
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I don't know how much the poker analogy works here because of how much luck is involved in poker. In poker you can play perfect and lose. RTS's are a different beast, yeah you maybe able to sneak a game in and beat Idra (maybe), but the reality is in a best of 3 or more, the better player should win. So I doubt there will be an abundance of amateurs beating pros in SC2 tournaments like we see often in poker. My guess is if you made Idra play through a round of 128 he'd still make it to the round of 16 almost every time.
Think of it more like golf, most SC tourneys are like the Masters where the consensus top players get to play (because people know they are good, they've paid their dues and proven they belong). While less often there are Open tourneys where anyone can qualify to participate, and maybe an amateur can pull a Rocky and topple a pro.
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On July 13 2010 03:45 mOnion wrote:
there are many tourneys that aren't invitational only, you just don't realize it because its a heuristic. you only recognize the big names and then go "psh invite only" but then when you see a tourney that is open you dont commit it to memory.
Actually, i have been constantly rolling around multiple websites and signing up for tournaments that I can make, most, have "reserve seating" for those people they want to invite later...
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On July 13 2010 03:47 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that... This is unbelievable arrogance. Who are YOU to judge how hard other people have worked to get to the point where they are? Yes, it's a matter of recognition, and moreover it's a matter of consistency. You beat someone who was invited somewhere else? Go do it again until you're known. People will just write you off as a fluke win until you stop whining about the situation and start posting consistent results. But I guess that's not the point of this post. The tournament structure IS what it is, and until there's signs point to a lot more background talent out there consistently taking invite-onlys out in tournaments the issue isn't worth discussing.
well said
On July 13 2010 03:49 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:45 mOnion wrote:
there are many tourneys that aren't invitational only, you just don't realize it because its a heuristic. you only recognize the big names and then go "psh invite only" but then when you see a tourney that is open you dont commit it to memory. Actually, i have been constantly rolling around multiple websites and signing up for tournaments that I can make, most, have "reserve seating" for those people they want to invite later...
but you can still sign up. get over it.
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In the end of the day the main reason there is so much coverage around invitationals and invitationals themselves is because the game isn't even out yet and using the hype around it with established names is the way to generate more hype.
I only hope the scene doesn't come to solely rely on them with open tournaments receiving little joy about from participation
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It's still beta. I'd rather spend my free time watching a bunch on known Progamers then some new comers. Alot of these guys have been pro for awhile, they have long time pro records dating back to SC1, WC3 or other games.
Be happy there is a qualifier bracket there at all. As ICCup said big names bring big money. Who would tune in to watch any sport on TV with a bunch of no names who may or may not be good.
I would like to see some more Pro-Am events later on but now, not yet. Look at it this way, once all the Korean's start playing you aren't going to be worthy of any tournaments anyways. 
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On July 13 2010 03:47 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that... This is unbelievable arrogance. Who are YOU to judge how hard other people have worked to get to the point where they are? Yes, it's a matter of recognition, and moreover it's a matter of consistency. You beat someone who was invited somewhere else? Go do it again until you're known. People will just write you off as a fluke win until you stop whining about the situation and start posting consistent results. But I guess that's not the point of this post. The tournament structure IS what it is, and until there's signs point to a lot more background talent out there consistently taking invite-onlys out in tournaments the issue isn't worth discussing.
I'm not arrogant and I have worked just as hard as most of those that were invited. I've played in just as many tournaments and have similar results. Yet nobody knows who I am because I failed to properly network. Yeah, thats my fault, but the bottom line is, they are where they are now because of who they know, not because they worked harder in SC2.
How hard you worked in SC1 or WC3 shouldn't be that big a factor as to who you invite to tournaments. I worked hard at WC3.. I was at WCG, doesn't mean I'm shit at SC2. Sure, it is a factor, but not to the extent its being dragged out to right now. I'm sure once things retail goes live and there are thousands of more players to choose from, this might change, however, this is how I see it and its my own opinion. Never in my post did I say I was better than anyone, and I have respect for my fellow players, I'm just saying the system is wrong.
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On July 13 2010 03:39 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:37 mOnion wrote:
also you come off whiney in this.
its not like the people who get auto invites just get them because they're attractive or good at making hamburgers. its cuz they did what you're doing now: grinding their way through shitty tourneys and slowly making a name for themselves.
I had never heard of sheth or slush or kiwikaki or qxc until SC2 beta, so its not like they became famous just because of some inate random luck factor. they had to play a lot.
This is a very good point. I remember a time when HuK did not get invited to the HDH. He was PISSED, btu at that point he did not have a big name. So he went out and whored himself out to every tournament in the world he could find and the ITL and is now regarded as one of the best on the planet. I guarantee he will not be skipped for HDH #2 or ANY major tournament.
This almost exactly, I complained about it too when i first joined the scene and felt i was better then some players in the hdh. i think ggi2 isnt such a bad event becuz its invite/open at the same time which means sure some people get invited (me ofc im bias) and you can still qualify. I think its really possible whoever does come from qualifier at the same time can win the whole thing. On a normal week once the game released there are going to be tons of weekly open tournaments that have already been mentioned in this thread + (zotac/esl/cc/gosucoaching/etc.)
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On July 13 2010 03:53 HuK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:39 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On July 13 2010 03:37 mOnion wrote:
also you come off whiney in this.
its not like the people who get auto invites just get them because they're attractive or good at making hamburgers. its cuz they did what you're doing now: grinding their way through shitty tourneys and slowly making a name for themselves.
I had never heard of sheth or slush or kiwikaki or qxc until SC2 beta, so its not like they became famous just because of some inate random luck factor. they had to play a lot.
This is a very good point. I remember a time when HuK did not get invited to the HDH. He was PISSED, btu at that point he did not have a big name. So he went out and whored himself out to every tournament in the world he could find and the ITL and is now regarded as one of the best on the planet. I guarantee he will not be skipped for HDH #2 or ANY major tournament. This almost exactly, I complained about it too when i first joined the scene and felt i was better then some players in the hdh. i think ggi2 isnt such a bad event becuz its invite/open at the same time which means sure some people get invited (me ofc im bias) and you can still qualify. I think its really possible whoever does come from qualifier at the same time can win the whole thing. On a normal week once the game released there are going to be tons of weekly open tournaments that have already been mentioned in this thread + (zotac/esl/cc/gosucoaching/etc.)
Yeah, things probably just need to equalize on release... However, the GGI2 is ridiculous that 75% of their final bracket was invite only... if they wanted more invitational names, they should have just made the bracket larger...
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On July 13 2010 03:52 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:47 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that... This is unbelievable arrogance. Who are YOU to judge how hard other people have worked to get to the point where they are? Yes, it's a matter of recognition, and moreover it's a matter of consistency. You beat someone who was invited somewhere else? Go do it again until you're known. People will just write you off as a fluke win until you stop whining about the situation and start posting consistent results. But I guess that's not the point of this post. The tournament structure IS what it is, and until there's signs point to a lot more background talent out there consistently taking invite-onlys out in tournaments the issue isn't worth discussing. I'm not arrogant and I have worked just as hard as most of those that were invited. I've played in just as many tournaments and have similar results. Yet nobody knows who I am because I failed to properly network. Yeah, thats my fault, but the bottom line is, they are where they are now because of who they know, not because they worked harder in SC2. How hard you worked in SC1 or WC3 shouldn't be that big a factor as to who you invite to tournaments. I worked hard at WC3.. I was at WCG, doesn't mean I'm shit at SC2. Sure, it is a factor, but not to the extent its being dragged out to right now. I'm sure once things retail goes live and there are thousands of more players to choose from, this might change, however, this is how I see it and its my own opinion. Never in my post did I say I was better than anyone, and I have respect for my fellow players, I'm just saying the system is wrong.
so how come other no namers have made it big and you haven't?
is the system only being wrong to you? even though you ALREADY should have connections cuz you went to WCG?
what you're saying is that you were actually a somebody who started playing a different game and is now a nobody and you are VERY bitter about the fact that there are other people who were ACTUALLY nobodies who became somebodies and now you're jealous and blaming the system.
i feel like im talking about kingdom hearts 2
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On July 13 2010 03:57 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:52 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 03:47 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that... This is unbelievable arrogance. Who are YOU to judge how hard other people have worked to get to the point where they are? Yes, it's a matter of recognition, and moreover it's a matter of consistency. You beat someone who was invited somewhere else? Go do it again until you're known. People will just write you off as a fluke win until you stop whining about the situation and start posting consistent results. But I guess that's not the point of this post. The tournament structure IS what it is, and until there's signs point to a lot more background talent out there consistently taking invite-onlys out in tournaments the issue isn't worth discussing. I'm not arrogant and I have worked just as hard as most of those that were invited. I've played in just as many tournaments and have similar results. Yet nobody knows who I am because I failed to properly network. Yeah, thats my fault, but the bottom line is, they are where they are now because of who they know, not because they worked harder in SC2. How hard you worked in SC1 or WC3 shouldn't be that big a factor as to who you invite to tournaments. I worked hard at WC3.. I was at WCG, doesn't mean I'm shit at SC2. Sure, it is a factor, but not to the extent its being dragged out to right now. I'm sure once things retail goes live and there are thousands of more players to choose from, this might change, however, this is how I see it and its my own opinion. Never in my post did I say I was better than anyone, and I have respect for my fellow players, I'm just saying the system is wrong. so how come other no namers have made it big and you haven't? is the system only being wrong to you? even though you ALREADY should have connections cuz you went to WCG? what you're saying is that you were actually a somebody who started playing a different game and is now a nobody and you are VERY bitter about the fact that there are other people who were ACTUALLY nobodies who became somebodies and now you're jealous and blaming the system. i feel like im talking about kingdom hearts 2
I'm not bitter at all. I have a very clear mind and am calm about this. I just dont like seeing so many invitationals. I don't get why you are on my balls about this. You have already voiced your opinion that you are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Why are you trying to start a flame war by calling me arrogant and saying the system is only wrong with me? Obviously there are other players who feel the same way, just because you aren't one of them doesn't giev you the right to flame bait my thread. Honestly.
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United States2095 Posts
Don't you think that you work harder to play SC2 because you want the prestige of being invited to these tournaments? That's one big reason why I play(to eventually get invited to big tournaments). I think its an important part of this game. In my eyes your just complaining that your not good enough yet. Get to work son! 
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the lack of chat rooms and global ladder rankings are definately very detrimental to no namers getting recognized T____T
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On July 13 2010 03:59 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:57 mOnion wrote:On July 13 2010 03:52 Paramore wrote:On July 13 2010 03:47 d3_crescentia wrote:On July 13 2010 03:23 Paramore wrote:
Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that... This is unbelievable arrogance. Who are YOU to judge how hard other people have worked to get to the point where they are? Yes, it's a matter of recognition, and moreover it's a matter of consistency. You beat someone who was invited somewhere else? Go do it again until you're known. People will just write you off as a fluke win until you stop whining about the situation and start posting consistent results. But I guess that's not the point of this post. The tournament structure IS what it is, and until there's signs point to a lot more background talent out there consistently taking invite-onlys out in tournaments the issue isn't worth discussing. I'm not arrogant and I have worked just as hard as most of those that were invited. I've played in just as many tournaments and have similar results. Yet nobody knows who I am because I failed to properly network. Yeah, thats my fault, but the bottom line is, they are where they are now because of who they know, not because they worked harder in SC2. How hard you worked in SC1 or WC3 shouldn't be that big a factor as to who you invite to tournaments. I worked hard at WC3.. I was at WCG, doesn't mean I'm shit at SC2. Sure, it is a factor, but not to the extent its being dragged out to right now. I'm sure once things retail goes live and there are thousands of more players to choose from, this might change, however, this is how I see it and its my own opinion. Never in my post did I say I was better than anyone, and I have respect for my fellow players, I'm just saying the system is wrong. so how come other no namers have made it big and you haven't? is the system only being wrong to you? even though you ALREADY should have connections cuz you went to WCG? what you're saying is that you were actually a somebody who started playing a different game and is now a nobody and you are VERY bitter about the fact that there are other people who were ACTUALLY nobodies who became somebodies and now you're jealous and blaming the system. i feel like im talking about kingdom hearts 2 I'm not bitter at all. I have a very clear mind and am calm about this. I just dont like seeing so many invitationals. I don't get why you are on my balls about this. You have already voiced your opinion that you are on the opposite end of the spectrum. Why are you trying to start a flame war by calling me arrogant and saying the system is only wrong with me? Obviously there are other players who feel the same way, just because you aren't one of them doesn't giev you the right to flame bait my thread. Honestly.
sorry i might be being a bit too asshole-ish, i'll back off
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On July 13 2010 03:52 Paramore wrote:
I'm not arrogant and I have worked just as hard as most of those that were invited. I've played in just as many tournaments and have similar results. Yet nobody knows who I am because I failed to properly network. Yeah, thats my fault, but the bottom line is, they are where they are now because of who they know, not because they worked harder in SC2.
Edit: I MAY have read this response wrong. Re-reading now
+ Show Spoiler +The difference between you and HuK is that HuK completely rocked everyone in the scene not named Sheth for the better part of two months straight, and is still placing in the top spot in like everything. There was a point where almost every tournament finals was HuK vs. Sheth. Also when he won he did so in impressive fashion completely dominating his opponent and is ULTRA aggressive.
You are a good player Paramore, but HuK is one of the very best Protoss players in the world. Top two if not the very best without a shout of a doubt. You still have a bit to go.
Comparing yourself to HuK is not going to help you. HuK has earned his right for these spots imo, and should not be forced to go thru a 128 man tourney to get his shot.
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The more viewers you get the more sponsors you can get in future tournaments. I feel that this has a lot to do with it. I'd say a tournament full of known names that have history with each other will draw more viewers than tournaments with people that few recognize even if they are really good. I don't organize tournaments so I can't testify to this, but I imagine when the game has launched and the organization of the tournaments become more standardized (fixed sponsors etc) you'll see a more diverse format of them as well. It's easy to forget we are still in beta. 
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I agree. If the big names are really the best, then they'll end up in the finals anyway.
On the other hand, I can see how invites might be beneficial. First of all, all those top players may not have competed of their on volition if they weren't invited. Along the same lines, making sure the big names are there draws in more viewers, increasing popularity as well as sponsors.
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Make a name for yourself? Plenty of open tournaments out there like Zotac, CraftCup, various one time tournaments, etc to make a name for yourself. I remember telling HuK to stfu and go win something when he was complaining about not being invited to an event. Long story short, he did and now he gets invited to a lot of tournaments. I don't see the amount of invitationals as a problem when there are plenty of open tournaments still around.
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Enter the tournament... win the tournament... problem solved.
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On July 13 2010 03:45 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:43 Dr.Smoke wrote:
I don't watch sports, but tell me, are not 99% of them NOT INVITATIONAL? As in, the players or teams play all year to COMPETE to get into said finals and such? I know in football the only real "invitationals" are pre-season warmup type stuff.
"invitational" isn't really a term you can use for teams representing stuff like "their country"
its a very limited potential set so....
Also, every league in existence is invitation on a larger scale, a hockey team can't just decide to be in the NHL...
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EPT
