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On July 14 2010 00:38 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:22 Paramore wrote:On July 14 2010 00:10 IdrA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +no shit they should be invited, and they proved that they deserved invites in open tournaments. tlo had a good run in a zotac before getting invited to the tli, making his name, and then continuing to do well in everything, huk had to win all the newbie american stuff before he started getting invites. invitationals are good for competitive gaming because they have the biggest draw, people dont watch for fairness and competitive integrity, they watch for entertainment. big name players provide better entertainment because their reputations make it more exciting and people are too stupid to see any real difference in the gameplay anyway. that allows invitationals to get better sponsors, get more money into the scene, which is obviously good. huk and tlo and various others already proved that its possible to go from a complete unknown to getting invited to everything, as long as you're capable of demonstrating that you deserve it.
of course thats all already been said and you'll just continue to ignore it cuz the sole reason you made this thread is because you think you deserve to be treated the same as people who have actually accomplished something. this is an example of someone not reading the thread... maybe if he bothered to read past the title, he would know that i never once talked about me wanting to be invited to anything... its okay though, its only idra, once launch comes and there are hundreds of thousands of other players that exist, you will only be remembered as a bad taste in everyone's mouths since you are possibly the worst mannered "professional" that exists and have complete disregard for respect at all levels of play... maybe you are cool in real life, but you forget that people are still people if you can't see their face on the other side of your screen... you come into my thread, don't even read it, don't even know wtf its all about, then call me dumbass ^_^ very classy... gl hf in the GGI, don't forget to say gg after you lose and don't let the door hit you on your way out You know, I like to go out of my way to disagree with much of what IdrA says (even though he's normally right) but he is 100% spot on in this case. It's apparent he DID reap the OP, you just are refusing to listen to anyone that does not agree with you. And please be honest here, this IS a thread about you not getting a seed in the GG Inv or Wolf Cup. There is no other reason in the world this OP would exist. Let's look at it from my view: I run a broadcasting stream that RELIES on having massive numbers to keep sponsors happy, and to attract new ones. These sponsors are the type of guys that care about one thing only, NUMBERS. Without big names you will not get big numbers. Period. End of Story. Point in case: ITL on Sunday (one of our smallest turnouts for an ITL in a LONG time): Unique Viewers: 8,447 Total Viewers: 16,995 Total Viewer Time: 316 days, 12 hours, 24 minutes Average # of Viewers: 1,560 ITC on Monday: (one of our best ITC turnouts)Unique Viewers: 6,742 Total Viewers: 10,155 Total Viewer Time: 103 days, 14 hours, 19 minutes Average # of Viewers: 675 Proof is in the pudding.... As a sponsor which of those two events would you rather put your $ into?
I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers.
Regardless, we are on two different sides of a debate, nothing is wrong with that, I just want you to be argueing for the other side and not some ulterior point.... The arguement is.. invitationals vs non-invitationals, should we have less invitationals.. not... "OP is crying about not being invited' because clearly I'm not.
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On July 14 2010 00:42 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:41 Takkara wrote: Well, let's be fair here Diamond. You compared a Sunday tournament to a Monday tournament. I think the draw for a Sunday tournament will ALWAYS be higher than a Monday tournament just due to the fact that people have more time on the weekends. I know for a fact that I watch tournaments nonstop when I have time on Weekends, but can't be bothered to find time for them Monday-Thursday. Actually Monday is normally one of our better ratings days. The only death days per se are Thursday and Friday. And actually iirc Monday is the optimum viewer time, it's why hit shows like House are on Monday's. Monday is a great day for video content. Sunday is actually considered in the broadcasting industry as a weaker day outside of Football season.
If Monday is your best viewer time, wouldn't it make sense to put your larger draw (the ITL) in the Monday slot? From a pure ratings standpoint, that would make the most sense then, no? I'd be very interested if you had any links about Monday being an optimal video content day. I'm far more likely to watch something on a weekend than a weekday. I'd rather spend my precious free time hours on a weekday actually playing SC2 than just watching.
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On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote: I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but you can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers.
Ok I said this earlier and I will say it again. No matter how much the players want to feel cool and powerful this is for one thing and one thing only.
The fans.
Without them you would be getting $0 to play this game and just be like some guy that's really good at D2 PvP. It's something that a lot of players are forgetting recently.
The fans like invitationals, the fans will get them. Once fans stop liking them than maybe we won't see as many.
And turns out that some people actually work on Saturdays and Sunday's too!!!! Liek I said before though, Monday's are a VERY good day for ratings, much more so than Sundays.
On July 14 2010 00:50 Takkara wrote: If Monday is your best viewer time, wouldn't it make sense to put your larger draw (the ITL) in the Monday slot? From a pure ratings standpoint, that would make the most sense then, no? I'd be very interested if you had any links about Monday being an optimal video content day. I'm far more likely to watch something on a weekend than a weekday. I'd rather spend my precious free time hours on a weekday actually playing SC2 than just watching.
Actually I don't have links as all this info comes from my cousin who works for G4 and is host of a show (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1977437/), and we talk quite a bit about things like this. I'm sure someone could dig up a source, but this is just something that is a known in the industry. Monday night football anyone?
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On July 14 2010 00:42 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:41 Takkara wrote: Well, let's be fair here Diamond. You compared a Sunday tournament to a Monday tournament. I think the draw for a Sunday tournament will ALWAYS be higher than a Monday tournament just due to the fact that people have more time on the weekends. I know for a fact that I watch tournaments nonstop when I have time on Weekends, but can't be bothered to find time for them Monday-Thursday. Actually Monday is normally one of our better ratings days. The only death days per se are Thursday and Friday. And actually iirc Monday is the optimum viewer time, it's why hit shows like House are on Monday's. Monday is a great day for video content. Sunday is actually considered in the broadcasting industry as a weaker day outside of Football season.
Let's not get into the discussion of TV ratings since they probably don't correlate with internet ratings... seeing as there is a large population of people that don't watch TV but game on the internet... also, this isn't a discussion as to what days are more popular... we could probably argue all day on that subject too.. but lets not
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On July 14 2010 00:22 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:10 IdrA wrote: no shit they should be invited, and they proved that they deserved invites in open tournaments. tlo had a good run in a zotac before getting invited to the tli, making his name, and then continuing to do well in everything, huk had to win all the newbie american stuff before he started getting invites. invitationals are good for competitive gaming because they have the biggest draw, people dont watch for fairness and competitive integrity, they watch for entertainment. big name players provide better entertainment because their reputations make it more exciting and people are too stupid to see any real difference in the gameplay anyway. that allows invitationals to get better sponsors, get more money into the scene, which is obviously good. huk and tlo and various others already proved that its possible to go from a complete unknown to getting invited to everything, as long as you're capable of demonstrating that you deserve it.
of course thats all already been said and you'll just continue to ignore it cuz the sole reason you made this thread is because you think you deserve to be treated the same as people who have actually accomplished something. this is an example of someone not reading the thread... maybe if he bothered to read past the title, he would know that i never once talked about me wanting to be invited to anything... yeah.. it's already been said that TLO and HuK deserve their reputations... BY ME.. moron... its okay though, its only idra, once launch comes and there are hundreds of thousands of other players that exist, you will only be remembered as a bad taste in everyone's mouths since you are possibly the worst mannered "professional" that exists and have complete disregard for respect at all levels of play... maybe you are cool in real life, but you forget that people are still people if you can't see their face on the other side of your screen... you come into my thread, don't even read it, don't even know wtf its all about, then call me dumbass ^_^ very classy... gl hf in the GGI, don't forget to say gg after you lose and don't let the door hit you on your way out youd be rude too if you had to talk to yourself the only mention of huk or tlo in your first post is preceded by "as mentioned in this thread" you did not bring up that they deserved to be invited. it was brought up by people who were pointing out that unknown players who were actually good are fully capable of working their way to the top.
you dont say you want to be invited, but its still the whole point of your post. if you, or anyone else, wants recognition, play any of the tens of open tournaments hosted every week and earn it like everyone else. and yes, the famous starcraft1 players getting invites did earn their spots. competitive gaming is an entertainment industry. starcraft1 players have reputations, that makes them entertaining. nobody gives a shit what you do. but they do give a shit about ret, even if he barely plays sc2.
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On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:38 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On July 14 2010 00:22 Paramore wrote:On July 14 2010 00:10 IdrA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +no shit they should be invited, and they proved that they deserved invites in open tournaments. tlo had a good run in a zotac before getting invited to the tli, making his name, and then continuing to do well in everything, huk had to win all the newbie american stuff before he started getting invites. invitationals are good for competitive gaming because they have the biggest draw, people dont watch for fairness and competitive integrity, they watch for entertainment. big name players provide better entertainment because their reputations make it more exciting and people are too stupid to see any real difference in the gameplay anyway. that allows invitationals to get better sponsors, get more money into the scene, which is obviously good. huk and tlo and various others already proved that its possible to go from a complete unknown to getting invited to everything, as long as you're capable of demonstrating that you deserve it.
of course thats all already been said and you'll just continue to ignore it cuz the sole reason you made this thread is because you think you deserve to be treated the same as people who have actually accomplished something. this is an example of someone not reading the thread... maybe if he bothered to read past the title, he would know that i never once talked about me wanting to be invited to anything... its okay though, its only idra, once launch comes and there are hundreds of thousands of other players that exist, you will only be remembered as a bad taste in everyone's mouths since you are possibly the worst mannered "professional" that exists and have complete disregard for respect at all levels of play... maybe you are cool in real life, but you forget that people are still people if you can't see their face on the other side of your screen... you come into my thread, don't even read it, don't even know wtf its all about, then call me dumbass ^_^ very classy... gl hf in the GGI, don't forget to say gg after you lose and don't let the door hit you on your way out You know, I like to go out of my way to disagree with much of what IdrA says (even though he's normally right) but he is 100% spot on in this case. It's apparent he DID reap the OP, you just are refusing to listen to anyone that does not agree with you. And please be honest here, this IS a thread about you not getting a seed in the GG Inv or Wolf Cup. There is no other reason in the world this OP would exist. Let's look at it from my view: I run a broadcasting stream that RELIES on having massive numbers to keep sponsors happy, and to attract new ones. These sponsors are the type of guys that care about one thing only, NUMBERS. Without big names you will not get big numbers. Period. End of Story. Point in case: ITL on Sunday (one of our smallest turnouts for an ITL in a LONG time): Unique Viewers: 8,447 Total Viewers: 16,995 Total Viewer Time: 316 days, 12 hours, 24 minutes Average # of Viewers: 1,560 ITC on Monday: (one of our best ITC turnouts)Unique Viewers: 6,742 Total Viewers: 10,155 Total Viewer Time: 103 days, 14 hours, 19 minutes Average # of Viewers: 675 Proof is in the pudding.... As a sponsor which of those two events would you rather put your $ into? I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups. Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION. So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well... Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers. Regardless, we are on two different sides of a debate, nothing is wrong with that, I just want you to be argueing for the other side and not some ulterior point.... The arguement is.. invitationals vs non-invitationals, should we have less invitationals.. not... "OP is crying about not being invited' because clearly I'm not.
Clearly it's not what your intent was, but your OP and some early replies just painted the whole argument wrong. Like Chill said, your point is lost amidst the rambling, and sometimes what you say just really comes off as self-serving. It's not as blatant as "I want an invite and deserve one" but it's more of a 'read-between-the-lines' type of thing. I've attached the ones if you're genuinely wondering why people get this vibe from your post.
Your point is just that you wish there weren't as many invitationals and want a world that's more equitable for all players. Others have countered with the fact they're ok with it and want a world that's more skewed towards the viewers than fairness for all players. That's the argument, but you muddied with water with a lot of your replies and bringing the focus to particular tournaments.
+ Show Spoiler +I look on the ladder everyday and Idra's record is just as imperfect as the next person under him. He still has losses even though he is #1 Diamond (doesn't mean anything btw), he also plays 8 hours a day, something most players don't have the time for. Even then, he still reserved the last few spots for well-knowns and put a "star" beside the names of those that "deserved" it. I have no hard-feelings, I didn't even get a star beside my name until I pmed him... I'm not arrogant and I have worked just as hard as most of those that were invited. I've played in just as many tournaments and have similar results. Yet nobody knows who I am because I failed to properly network. Yeah, thats my fault, but the bottom line is, they are where they are now because of who they know, not because they worked harder in SC2.
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On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote:
..."OP is crying about not being invited' because clearly I'm not.
The bitter and arrogant tone in the OP aswell as in comments both in this and other threads strongly suggests that you are. That's the problem.
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On July 14 2010 00:51 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote: I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but you can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers. Ok I said this earlier and I will say it again. No matter how much the players want to feel cool and powerful this is for one thing and one thing only. The fans. Without them you would be getting $0 to play this game and just be like some guy that's really good at D2 PvP. It's something that a lot of players are forgetting recently. The fans like invitationals, the fans will get them. Once fans stop liking them than maybe we won't see as many. And turns out that some people actually work on Saturdays and Sunday's too!!!! Liek I said before though, Monday's are a VERY good day for ratings, much more so than Sundays.
Thats fine, i totally understand what you are coming from... that is why I put in the OP the pros and cons of invitationals... I dont have some one-sided view where I refuse to listen, its just that morons keep posting here and talking about something entirely different or say that I'm just whining about not invited, which is not the case... if the community truly wants more invitationals.. let it happen, I'm all for what everyone wants... the question in the OP was:
What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder.
Thats what it was always about. Sure, I used some harsh words in it, but honestly, some of the players that are invited, don't deserve it, its insulting to those that do deserve it (HuK, TLO, [not talking about myself]) and an eyesore to those that watch (yes now I'm talking about me) .
Besides the point, I'm not saying BAN invitationals, just make it more exclusive/special so its not the regular basis type of cookie-cutter tournament you run ex:... oh.. some guy has $1500 to give away, the money is already committed.. lets just make it an invitational because we want viewers... don't remember that the money was already committed and all you needed to do was run a tournament... doesn't need to be invitational every god-damn time... there can just exist a big tournament that is open to diamonds.. etc... i don't even care what the pre-requisits are...
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On July 14 2010 00:52 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:22 Paramore wrote:On July 14 2010 00:10 IdrA wrote: no shit they should be invited, and they proved that they deserved invites in open tournaments. tlo had a good run in a zotac before getting invited to the tli, making his name, and then continuing to do well in everything, huk had to win all the newbie american stuff before he started getting invites. invitationals are good for competitive gaming because they have the biggest draw, people dont watch for fairness and competitive integrity, they watch for entertainment. big name players provide better entertainment because their reputations make it more exciting and people are too stupid to see any real difference in the gameplay anyway. that allows invitationals to get better sponsors, get more money into the scene, which is obviously good. huk and tlo and various others already proved that its possible to go from a complete unknown to getting invited to everything, as long as you're capable of demonstrating that you deserve it.
of course thats all already been said and you'll just continue to ignore it cuz the sole reason you made this thread is because you think you deserve to be treated the same as people who have actually accomplished something. this is an example of someone not reading the thread... maybe if he bothered to read past the title, he would know that i never once talked about me wanting to be invited to anything... yeah.. it's already been said that TLO and HuK deserve their reputations... BY ME.. moron... its okay though, its only idra, once launch comes and there are hundreds of thousands of other players that exist, you will only be remembered as a bad taste in everyone's mouths since you are possibly the worst mannered "professional" that exists and have complete disregard for respect at all levels of play... maybe you are cool in real life, but you forget that people are still people if you can't see their face on the other side of your screen... you come into my thread, don't even read it, don't even know wtf its all about, then call me dumbass ^_^ very classy... gl hf in the GGI, don't forget to say gg after you lose and don't let the door hit you on your way out youd be rude too if you had to talk to yourself the only mention of huk or tlo in your first post is preceded by "as mentioned in this thread" you did not bring up that they deserved to be invited. it was brought up by people who were pointing out that unknown players who were actually good are fully capable of working their way to the top. you dont say you want to be invited, but its still the whole point of your post. if you, or anyone else, wants recognition, play any of the tens of open tournaments hosted every week and earn it like everyone else. and yes, the famous starcraft1 players getting invites did earn their spots. competitive gaming is an entertainment industry. starcraft1 players have reputations, that makes them entertaining. nobody gives a shit what you do. but they do give a shit about ret, even if he barely plays sc2.
Don't really understand as well why you have to be so arrogant right of the bat, IdrA might have a reputation of being a bit BM, but he was just telling you facts then you blatantly bash him in the next post. It surely isn't helping your case, specially seeing as you choose to ignore everyone's opinion beside your own.
Why invitationals are so popular has been explained to you about 30 times in this thread ;/
On July 14 2010 00:57 Paramore wrote: What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder.
THIS, you keep saying those that are invited are SPOON-FED.. they worked hard for their reputation and are reaping what they sow, this works the same in everything else.
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On July 14 2010 00:57 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:51 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote: I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but you can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers. Ok I said this earlier and I will say it again. No matter how much the players want to feel cool and powerful this is for one thing and one thing only. The fans. Without them you would be getting $0 to play this game and just be like some guy that's really good at D2 PvP. It's something that a lot of players are forgetting recently. The fans like invitationals, the fans will get them. Once fans stop liking them than maybe we won't see as many. And turns out that some people actually work on Saturdays and Sunday's too!!!! Liek I said before though, Monday's are a VERY good day for ratings, much more so than Sundays. Thats fine, i totally understand what you are coming from... that is why I put in the OP the pros and cons of invitationals... I dont have some one-sided view where I refuse to listen, its just that morons keep posting here and talking about something entirely different or say that I'm just whining about not invited, which is not the case... if the community truly wants more invitationals.. let it happen, I'm all for what everyone wants... the question in the OP was: What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder. Thats what it was always about. Sure, I used some harsh words in it, but honestly, some of the players that are invited, don't deserve it, its insulting to those that do deserve it (HuK, TLO, [not talking about myself]) and an eyesore to those that watch (yes now I'm talking about me) . Besides the point, I'm not saying BAN invitationals, just make it more exclusive/special so its not the regular basis type of cookie-cutter tournament you run ex:... oh.. some guy has $1500 to give away, the money is already committed.. lets just make it an invitational because we want viewers... don't remember that the money was already committed and all you needed to do was run a tournament... doesn't need to be invitational every god-damn time... there can just exist a big tournament that is open to diamonds.. etc... i don't even care what the pre-requisits are...
Wait wait wait......
The viewer base has spoken in a very loud and clear manner (as suggested by my numbers above), they WANT invitationals. Name me one invitational event that has outdrawn the ITL or HDH....
As for the $1500 thing, you realize that the $ for the GG inv thing came AFTER they made the format?
Any company that invests $1500 in a open tourney is stupid. They will NOT get their $'s worth. I would know being I have like access to the stats form every event ever hosted on iCCup TV.
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On July 14 2010 00:59 Chesner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:52 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 00:22 Paramore wrote:On July 14 2010 00:10 IdrA wrote: no shit they should be invited, and they proved that they deserved invites in open tournaments. tlo had a good run in a zotac before getting invited to the tli, making his name, and then continuing to do well in everything, huk had to win all the newbie american stuff before he started getting invites. invitationals are good for competitive gaming because they have the biggest draw, people dont watch for fairness and competitive integrity, they watch for entertainment. big name players provide better entertainment because their reputations make it more exciting and people are too stupid to see any real difference in the gameplay anyway. that allows invitationals to get better sponsors, get more money into the scene, which is obviously good. huk and tlo and various others already proved that its possible to go from a complete unknown to getting invited to everything, as long as you're capable of demonstrating that you deserve it.
of course thats all already been said and you'll just continue to ignore it cuz the sole reason you made this thread is because you think you deserve to be treated the same as people who have actually accomplished something. this is an example of someone not reading the thread... maybe if he bothered to read past the title, he would know that i never once talked about me wanting to be invited to anything... yeah.. it's already been said that TLO and HuK deserve their reputations... BY ME.. moron... its okay though, its only idra, once launch comes and there are hundreds of thousands of other players that exist, you will only be remembered as a bad taste in everyone's mouths since you are possibly the worst mannered "professional" that exists and have complete disregard for respect at all levels of play... maybe you are cool in real life, but you forget that people are still people if you can't see their face on the other side of your screen... you come into my thread, don't even read it, don't even know wtf its all about, then call me dumbass ^_^ very classy... gl hf in the GGI, don't forget to say gg after you lose and don't let the door hit you on your way out youd be rude too if you had to talk to yourself the only mention of huk or tlo in your first post is preceded by "as mentioned in this thread" you did not bring up that they deserved to be invited. it was brought up by people who were pointing out that unknown players who were actually good are fully capable of working their way to the top. you dont say you want to be invited, but its still the whole point of your post. if you, or anyone else, wants recognition, play any of the tens of open tournaments hosted every week and earn it like everyone else. and yes, the famous starcraft1 players getting invites did earn their spots. competitive gaming is an entertainment industry. starcraft1 players have reputations, that makes them entertaining. nobody gives a shit what you do. but they do give a shit about ret, even if he barely plays sc2. Don't really understand as well why you have to be so arrogant right of the bat, IdrA might have a reputation of being a bit BM, but he was just telling you facts then you blatantly bash him in the next post. It surely isn't helping your case, specially seeing as you choose to ignore everyone's opinion beside your own. Why invitationals are so popular has been explained to you about 30 times in this thread ;/ Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:57 Paramore wrote: What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder.
THIS, you keep saying those that are invited are SPOON-FED.. they worked hard for their reputation and are reaping what they sow, this works the same in everything else.
Actually I do listen to other people's arguements, especially when they are on topic... like talking about why invitationals are good or bad... otherwise, its just basic flaming in which I am defending myself... -You can keep telling me that I want to be invited, -and I'll keep telling you that I want to be invited, but this isn't what its really about... -and then the only arguement anybody can come up with is that i want to be invited.. which is not really an arguement at all.. since you already said it, and I admitted it, and then you are just saying it over and over and over again...
So of course I'm going to bash Idra when he walks in this thread with his huge head and starts talking out of his ass like he does every other time.
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On July 14 2010 01:02 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:57 Paramore wrote:On July 14 2010 00:51 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote: I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but you can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers. Ok I said this earlier and I will say it again. No matter how much the players want to feel cool and powerful this is for one thing and one thing only. The fans. Without them you would be getting $0 to play this game and just be like some guy that's really good at D2 PvP. It's something that a lot of players are forgetting recently. The fans like invitationals, the fans will get them. Once fans stop liking them than maybe we won't see as many. And turns out that some people actually work on Saturdays and Sunday's too!!!! Liek I said before though, Monday's are a VERY good day for ratings, much more so than Sundays. Thats fine, i totally understand what you are coming from... that is why I put in the OP the pros and cons of invitationals... I dont have some one-sided view where I refuse to listen, its just that morons keep posting here and talking about something entirely different or say that I'm just whining about not invited, which is not the case... if the community truly wants more invitationals.. let it happen, I'm all for what everyone wants... the question in the OP was: What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder. Thats what it was always about. Sure, I used some harsh words in it, but honestly, some of the players that are invited, don't deserve it, its insulting to those that do deserve it (HuK, TLO, [not talking about myself]) and an eyesore to those that watch (yes now I'm talking about me) . Besides the point, I'm not saying BAN invitationals, just make it more exclusive/special so its not the regular basis type of cookie-cutter tournament you run ex:... oh.. some guy has $1500 to give away, the money is already committed.. lets just make it an invitational because we want viewers... don't remember that the money was already committed and all you needed to do was run a tournament... doesn't need to be invitational every god-damn time... there can just exist a big tournament that is open to diamonds.. etc... i don't even care what the pre-requisits are... Wait wait wait...... The viewer base has spoken in a very loud and clear manner (as suggested by my numbers above), they WANT invitationals. Name me one invitational event that has outdrawn the ITL or HDH.... As for the $1500 thing, you realize that the $ for the GG inv thing came AFTER they made the format? Any company that invests $1500 in a open tourney is stupid. They will NOT get their $'s worth. I would know being I have like access to the stats form every event ever hosted on iCCup TV.
I'm not talking about the GGI anymore.. i was talking about a random tournament with $1500 ... please, not everythign is about GGI
Regardless.. so your way would basically be... lets do mostly invitationals all the time so that we can get good ratings and more money then... is that your stance?
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On July 14 2010 00:57 Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:51 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote: I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but you can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers. Ok I said this earlier and I will say it again. No matter how much the players want to feel cool and powerful this is for one thing and one thing only. The fans. Without them you would be getting $0 to play this game and just be like some guy that's really good at D2 PvP. It's something that a lot of players are forgetting recently. The fans like invitationals, the fans will get them. Once fans stop liking them than maybe we won't see as many. And turns out that some people actually work on Saturdays and Sunday's too!!!! Liek I said before though, Monday's are a VERY good day for ratings, much more so than Sundays. What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder.
Seriously are you really that new to the internet? Do you simply have no idea how to talk to people on the forums without pissing them off? Most people learn in their first month how to construct a post without inciting the kind of responses you have gotten.
You are insulting TLO, WhiteRa, HuK, and every other well liked Pro with that statement. It's no wonder we are reacting to you with such venom.
When the viewers start watching Open tournaments there will be more. Until then welcome to SC2 Tournaments.
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On July 14 2010 01:09 Spidermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:57 Paramore wrote:On July 14 2010 00:51 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On July 14 2010 00:46 Paramore wrote: I guess I can't reiterate enough that this isn't really about me and that I just used tournaments that I happened to participate in as an example. Perhaps I should have used other tournaments that did not even include open sign ups.
Sure, as I have already admitted, I wouldn't mind being an invitee... WHO WOULDNT? but again.. this thread is entirely about the fact that there are too many tournaments which have reserve seating, invitational or some other part JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT... and its quickly becoming the NORM when it should be the EXCEPTION.
So, maybe YOU should re-read the OP because clearly YOU seem to be misunderstanding as well...
Also, some people have work on Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays and even Fridays, but you can not mistake cause and effect if you want to talk about numbers. Ok I said this earlier and I will say it again. No matter how much the players want to feel cool and powerful this is for one thing and one thing only. The fans. Without them you would be getting $0 to play this game and just be like some guy that's really good at D2 PvP. It's something that a lot of players are forgetting recently. The fans like invitationals, the fans will get them. Once fans stop liking them than maybe we won't see as many. And turns out that some people actually work on Saturdays and Sunday's too!!!! Liek I said before though, Monday's are a VERY good day for ratings, much more so than Sundays. What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder. Seriously are you really that new to the internet? Do you simply have no idea how to talk to people on the forums without pissing them off? Most people learn in their first month how to construct a post without inciting the kind of responses you have gotten. You are insulting TLO, WhiteRa, HuK, and every other well liked Pro with that statement. It's no wonder we are reacting to you with such venom. When the viewers start watching Open tournaments there will be more. Until then welcome to SC2 Tournaments.
Actually, I think TLO Whitera and Huk are great players and well deserving to be invited to large events. I wasn't talking about them when I made that comment. It doesn't matter who I was talking about, I'm not going to name-drop. Great though, open tournaments will be more prevelant when more viewers watch them, I look forward to that, I really do.
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On July 14 2010 01:06 Paramore wrote: I'm not talking about the GGI anymore.. i was talking about a random tournament with $1500 ... please, not everythign is about GGI
Regardless.. so your way would basically be... lets do mostly invitationals all the time so that we can get good ratings and more money then... is that your stance?
Well a non-invitational will never get a $1500 prize pool in SC2's current state.
Yes that is my point. $ is good. I like $. Call me crazy.
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Paramore: I completely agree, I was going to say something similar but didn't want to look like I was whining - you said this very well.
THIS IS SC2 PEOPLE, YOUR SC1 DOESN'T MATTER.
For instance, a lot of players (was going to name names but took it back) back in 2004 generally was considered a mediocre player back when I was on a team with Elky and others, and was considered one of the better americans. True for a lot of the other "invite" players out there today, as well.
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Also, to back up the point, did Grrr or Agent911 or Tillerman or any of the original gosus get invites? No they did it the tough way by climbing the ladders and tours.
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On July 14 2010 01:16 vinautomatic wrote: Also, to back up the point, did Grrr or Agent911 or Tillerman or any of the original gosus get invites? No they did it the tough way by climbing the ladders and tours.
The point is about money. It's not about fairness. Read what Diamond is saying.
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@ Diamond
You may have all these fancy numbers about ITL vs ITC, but don't forget where the people in ITL came from... everyone had to start somewhere... its great that you guys run ITC along with ITL, thats the type of attitude I would like more of the community organizers to participate in...
I think ITC is an awesome concept. Everybody gets a chance as long as they are plat/diamond players. That's pretty open to me. ITL people earned their right.. etc.. if you have an invite ITL only tournament, that'd be fine, because you are from the ICCUP organization and EVERYBODY got a chance to ladder and got a chance to get diamond and in turn got a chance in ITC to get to ITL...
However, besides first-come-first-serve, what chance did lower players get to go to great events like HDH. Sure, well known community sharing people got invited along with some "better known" players. Yeah, I was okay with the first few invitationals. However, then it became a regular thing.. and occuring in tournaments with $50 prize pools, thats when I made this thread. Because if $10 tournaments become invite-only, wtf tournament is anybody ever going to participate in if you can only participate in winning 25 cents if you are invited?
True, big names draw large crowds, but do we really have to start reserving seats and inviting people to tournaments that are as so small, comparatively speaking? Like I said, what is special about any invitational, if all tournaments are invitational. If they become the norm, your viewer base will normalize and act as if they were just normal open-tournaments. Its because they are special that they get that many viewers in the first place. Once this goes "Norm" it wont be the same.
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On July 14 2010 01:18 Paramore wrote: @ Diamond
You may have all these fancy numbers about ITL vs ITC, but don't forget where the people in ITL came from... everyone had to start somewhere... its great that you guys run ITC along with ITL, thats the type of attitude I would like more of the community organizers to participate in...
I think ITC is an awesome concept. Everybody gets a chance as long as they are plat/diamond players. That's pretty open to me. ITL people earned their right.. etc.. if you have an invite ITL only tournament, that'd be fine, because you are from the ICCUP organization and EVERYBODY got a chance to ladder and got a chance to get diamond and in turn got a chance in ITC to get to ITL...
However, besides first-come-first-serve, what chance did lower players get to go to great events like HDH. Sure, well known community sharing people got invited along with some "better known" players. Yeah, I was okay with the first few invitationals. However, then it became a regular thing.. and occuring in tournaments with $50 prize pools, thats when I made this thread. Because if $10 tournaments become invite-only, wtf tournament is anybody ever going to participate in if you can only participate in winning 25 cents if you are invited?
True, big names draw large crowds, but do we really have to start reserving seats and inviting people to tournaments that are as so small, comparatively speaking? Like I said, what is special about any invitational, if all tournaments are invitational. If they become the norm, your viewer base will normalize and act as if they were just normal open-tournaments. Its because they are special that they get that many viewers in the first place. Once this goes "Norm" it wont be the same.
your basic argument throughout the thread is "people should work hard to be in tournaments and people shouldn't get free rides." there are plenty of open tournaments without $$, and even some with money like craftcup or zotac! keep winning those, and then you'll be recognized enough that invitationals will start inviting you. win those invitationals, and MORE people will want to invite you.
that sounds like hard work to me. if TLO lost every single match he ever played in an invitational from now on in a non-entertaining manner, he'd probably lose his popularity, and no longer be invited.
and guess what, people don't want to watch open tournaments. you can complain all you like, not no one wants to watch them unless there're known players in there, or if a known caster is casting. you keep whining about big tournaments not featuring players like you. (essentially you're begging for a free ride to the big tournament circuit without working your way through the smaller ones first) in any case, i don't want to watch you play because i have no clue who you are. would you?
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