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On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal.
I agree with you, but the thing is it's usually Terran or Protoss who have the single, powerful units that would truly benefit from spells like frenzy. Giving it to Zerg, who (usually) rely on masses of units rather than a single, powerful unit is kind of retarded imo.
Of course, there were spells like d-matrix which would be single-target and stuff and people found uses for them eventually, but putting frenzy on the infestor (Zerg) just seems kind of stupid.
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On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious.
maybe they could be made to fit into sc style play with auto cast or some shit
but the fact that it didn't have that right away means that the people doing the balancing are clueless about this
I totally agree this.
Starcraft is a game in which each action worths a lot. You will always have something more important to do rather than adding 25% damage to a single unit. Those actions could be on making more use of your larvae because nobody manages larvae perfectly, even the progamers. This is STARCRAFT!
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On May 23 2010 13:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal. I agree with you, but the thing is it's usually Terran or Protoss who have the single, powerful units that would truly benefit from spells like frenzy. Giving it to Zerg, who (usually) rely on masses of units rather than a single, powerful unit is kind of retarded imo. Of course, there were spells like d-matrix which would be single-target and stuff and people found uses for them eventually, but putting frenzy on the infestor (Zerg) just seems kind of stupid.
hence frenzy being retarded and never being used over fungal
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anyway, if you look at it from a map maker's viewpoint, a spell like frenzy is going to be a lot of fun to work with probably. i'm really keen on finding out just how customizable everything is in sc2 with the spells. but yeah...sounds like ultralisk's hp got lowered way too much.
maybe they should leave the hp alone and increase the attack even more. btw, can you cast frenzy on burrowed units?
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Let's say it's ZvZ. Both players have gone roach / hydra / infestor. Now you have added ultras. What would you do first - frenzy three ultras or cast fungal growth?
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I still don't know what they were thinking when they lowered it's HP. The damage type change made me roll my eyes a bit but in a way it makes sense. I understand if they want to change the units role to make it a hard counter to armored type units, but with the HP nerf it makes no sense because they won't live enough to even get in range to hit the armored units.
Nevermind that frenzy in its current state is not worth the energy to cast over fungal growth or neural parasite.
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On May 23 2010 13:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal. I agree with you, but the thing is it's usually Terran or Protoss who have the single, powerful units that would truly benefit from spells like frenzy. Giving it to Zerg, who (usually) rely on masses of units rather than a single, powerful unit is kind of retarded imo. Of course, there were spells like d-matrix which would be single-target and stuff and people found uses for them eventually, but putting frenzy on the infestor (Zerg) just seems kind of stupid.
Compare stim and frenzy: stim gives every unit 2 times DPS and they move faster, on a single action, at a cost of less than 1/5 hp. Frenzy gives ONE unit 1.3 times DPS and immune to zerg spells mainly, at a cost of 25 energy.
I don't mean that frenzy should be as good as stim, but my point is that spells like stim are what is really considered useful.
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On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal.
ok maybe not totally useless but u think the extra 20% damage spell is a good thing for sc? it's like the least creative, most bland, tiniest edge u can ever get.
every single other spell in sc1 had waaay more profound effects
i guess smartcast is a problem but let me ask
your pretty quick
if ur fighting another army and they don't have collosus, thor, mothership, carrier
u have corruptors in your army
do u ever bother using the corruption spell on any of their units
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On May 23 2010 13:40 cartoon]x wrote:
Let's say it's ZvZ. Both players have gone roach / hydra / infestor. Now you have added ultras. What would you do first - frenzy three ultras or cast fungal growth?
roach hydra is out dated, theyre going to have to make massive changes to z to get around the strength of banelings and the mobility of ling/muta
that aside you would still cast fungal. zerg units simply arent powerful enough, even ultras, to be worth a single unit buff like that when its competing for mana with a spell a strong as fungal.
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On May 23 2010 13:23 Backpack wrote:
Blizzard know's what they are doing. The fact that people seem to think they can balance the game better than a company who has made Starcraft, WC3, and WoW, baffles me.
Sure, the "company." But the reality of it is that the development teams are very different from game to game. Most developers move on to different projects after a game goes retail. And in this case, SC1 dev team =/= SC2 dev team.
My bother is a game dev so I know a bit about the industry. From my personal experience, I would not jump at the opportunity of putting devs on a pedestal. There are many programmers hired to code that aren't necessarily into the particular video game series they are working on (or into video games in particular at all).
You don't need any experience coding in C to observe balance issues like the original implementation of the roach or the weakness of the thor's AA before it became aoe. Certainly the devs probably have a less biased view than most of the players, but that doesn't mean the players can't make suggestions and help.
Ideas are a dime a dozen in the gaming industry. I would be more concerned with devs wanting to create their own game with a disregard towards the playerbase's wants (see the entire MMO genre). And judging from Bnet 2.0, I don't think Blizzard is too focused on maintaining a close relationship with their customers. They really seem to be at the point where they believe they know best and don't give a shit about their vocal players. I thank WoW's success for that. I think many players are becoming disillusioned with Blizzard ever since the Burning Crusade was released.
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they could make frenzy an AoE spell instead of one unit only, then it would be powerful and useful
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On May 23 2010 13:25 cartoon]x wrote:
For corruptors, the 20 percent damage increase spell compensates for the attack decrease against colossus somewhat. Although the casting time does translate into a damage reduction. But it also contributes to damage received by ground units. So really, whether it's a nerf to damage against the colossus is debatable and really kind of sketchy. I think the old corruption was more useful, though. I am skeptical about these Ultra changes but I haven't had much experience with them.. Keep in mind, though, zerg already has two great ways of killing light - banelings & fungal growth. I am pretty much certain Ultras do more damage to armored now .. not less. Where did you get this statistic they do less? Did you make it up?
The Frenzy spell cost 25 energy. Let's pretend you have an infestor with 100 energy. It casts fungal growth. Now it has 25 energy left. What do you use it on? You use it on a frenzy.. There are situations where casting Frenzy is worth it. That is unavoidable.
Here is the discussion on why ultralisks do less damage to armored army now:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126619
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3 ultras compared with 3 mind controlled ultras .. That's a big swing considering the damage they do to armored at this point. you're talking about losing 18 food then the opponent gaining 18 food. You're wrong .. It's better to cast the frenzy.
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On May 23 2010 13:47 cartoon]x wrote:
3 ultras compared with 3 mind controlled ultras .. That's a big swing considering the damage they do to armored at this point. you're talking about losing 18 food then the opponent gaining 18 food. You're wrong .. It's better to cast the frenzy.
I dont understand why you will bother to make ultralisk against the army consist of the same number of infesters.
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On May 23 2010 13:47 cartoon]x wrote:
3 ultras compared with 3 mind controlled ultras .. That's a big swing considering the damage they do to armored at this point. you're talking about losing 18 food then the opponent gaining 18 food. You're wrong .. It's better to cast the frenzy.
you are talking about one specific situation, ofc there are some situations where frenzy is better but its sooo rare. 99% of the time mind control or fungal are better.
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On May 23 2010 13:43 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal. ok maybe not totally useless but u think the extra 20% damage spell is a good thing for sc? it's like the least creative, most bland, tiniest edge u can ever get. every single other spell in sc1 had waaay more profound effects i guess smartcast is a problem but let me ask your pretty quick if ur fighting another army and they don't have collosus, thor, mothership, carrier u have corruptors in your army do u ever bother using the corruption spell on any of their units
if they dont have colos or motherships i usually wouldnt have corruptors in the battle. ignoring that, it would be my lowest priority, unless they had temps around. but that doesnt mean its necessarily a bad thing. its a spell targeted at taking out big powerful units, and the corruptor in general is mostly designed for that purpose. its useful in some situations, not in others. i dont really see why that kind of specialization is a problem. hell, people bitch about zerg being bland and simple. all purpose spells and units are part of what cause that.
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On May 23 2010 13:50 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:43 travis wrote:On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal. ok maybe not totally useless but u think the extra 20% damage spell is a good thing for sc? it's like the least creative, most bland, tiniest edge u can ever get. every single other spell in sc1 had waaay more profound effects i guess smartcast is a problem but let me ask your pretty quick if ur fighting another army and they don't have collosus, thor, mothership, carrier u have corruptors in your army do u ever bother using the corruption spell on any of their units if they dont have colos or motherships i usually wouldnt have corruptors in the battle. ignoring that, it would be my lowest priority, unless they had temps around. but that doesnt mean its necessarily a bad thing. its a spell targeted at taking out big powerful units, and the corruptor in general is mostly designed for that purpose. its useful in some situations, not in others. i dont really see why that kind of specialization is a problem. hell, people bitch about zerg being bland and simple. all purpose spells and units are part of what cause that.
alright well u clearly would know better than I would if it has a place in the game but I still do hate it, if only cuz im slow and it just feels like added actions to me
(I wouldn't complain if it added some sort of strategy element, but I really don't think it does)
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On May 23 2010 13:46 MasterAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:25 cartoon]x wrote:
For corruptors, the 20 percent damage increase spell compensates for the attack decrease against colossus somewhat. Although the casting time does translate into a damage reduction. But it also contributes to damage received by ground units. So really, whether it's a nerf to damage against the colossus is debatable and really kind of sketchy. I think the old corruption was more useful, though. I am skeptical about these Ultra changes but I haven't had much experience with them.. Keep in mind, though, zerg already has two great ways of killing light - banelings & fungal growth. I am pretty much certain Ultras do more damage to armored now .. not less. Where did you get this statistic they do less? Did you make it up?
The Frenzy spell cost 25 energy. Let's pretend you have an infestor with 100 energy. It casts fungal growth. Now it has 25 energy left. What do you use it on? You use it on a frenzy.. There are situations where casting Frenzy is worth it. That is unavoidable. Here is the discussion on why ultralisks do less damage to armored army now: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126619
No. You must not of read the entire thread. The first part of the analysis does not take into account the increased splash radius, which is designed to make the Ultras splash more effective against armored units which are typically more spread out.
This is the final analysis:
On May 22 2010 11:11 phyvo wrote:
Basically, the old ultra was better vs marines, hellions, 3 marauders, and 3 vikings. The new ultra is better vs everything else. Ultras should do about 2.5 X as much damage vs marauder balls, tank balls, thor balls, 2 X damage vs viking balls, 0.75 X damage vs marine balls.
Do not spread lies and cause alarm.
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On May 23 2010 13:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 13:31 IdrA wrote:On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote:
anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
it just doesn't matter enough to click one unit and tell it to cast a spell on another unit to make that other unit do 20% more damage or some shit. it just isn't important enough to bother. dunno why this isn't obvious. well they make a lot of mistakes and dont fully understand what theyre doing but thats kind of ridiculous. making collosus, thors, capital ships take an extra 20% damage is well worth clicking on them and theres nothing inherently un-sc about it. there were single target spells aimed at knocking out powerful units in sc1, but you cant have something like lockdown in sc2 because smartcast would make it overpowered. so things like corruption are the middle ground. that being said frenzy is retarded and will never be used over fungal. I agree with you, but the thing is it's usually Terran or Protoss who have the single, powerful units that would truly benefit from spells like frenzy. Giving it to Zerg, who (usually) rely on masses of units rather than a single, powerful unit is kind of retarded imo. Of course, there were spells like d-matrix which would be single-target and stuff and people found uses for them eventually, but putting frenzy on the infestor (Zerg) just seems kind of stupid.
The power of D-matrix didn't depend heavily on which unit you put it on - it was the same number of +HP regardless. You wanted it on whatever unit the opponent would be attacking first, which could be a marine/firebat just as easily as a siege tank or battlecruiser.
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Maybe making frenzy a researched Ultra ability that had some specs changed would make the unit more useful all around, but who knows, I don't play zerg, but from what it looks like Frenzy gets cast on only one unit, Ultras, and if people aren't building them what the hell is the point of putting it in? They definitely need to take another approach to how they balance things.
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EPT
