EPTDo the blizzard people nerf ultralisk on purpose? - Page 3
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Sirot
48 Posts
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MasterAsia
United States170 Posts
On May 23 2010 13:57 cartoon]x wrote: No. You must not of read the entire thread. The first part of the analysis does not take into account the increased splash radius, which is designed to make the Ultras splash more effective against armored units which are typically more spread out. This is the final analysis: Do not spread lies and cause alarm. Where do you get the result? I doubt "Ultras should do about 2.5 X as much damage vs marauder balls". Another fact is that in the previous patch, the ultralisk can 5 shots kill a ball of marauders. Now it takes 10 shots to kill them. Even with large balls you deal more damage, the enemy die much slower, which means you die much faster. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On May 23 2010 13:47 cartoon]x wrote: 3 ultras compared with 3 mind controlled ultras .. That's a big swing considering the damage they do to armored at this point. you're talking about losing 18 food then the opponent gaining 18 food. You're wrong .. It's better to cast the frenzy. Best decision would have been not making ultras. Then you never have to waste infestor mana on frenzy, instead use it on more useful ZvZ spell fungal growth hth. | ||
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Actinium
United States13 Posts
I have much the same problem with the new corruption. If you're only making corrupters to fight massive units and you're mostly only bothering to cast corruption on those massive units what's the point of having it be a spell and not a passive effect? At least in this cast there's always the off chance that you make corrupters to fight, say, vikings and then after that's done you can spit up on a thor or 2 to make things easier on your hydras but ultimately these spells feel like placeholders rather then important pieces of the zerg puzzle. | ||
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Twinweapon
United States90 Posts
Thats my opinion for why they lowered the hp and gave the infestor a new ability that costs very little energy. The problem is that people at MOST(often it is one queen at base and 2 at natural imo) will make 2 queens at each base depending on the situation and will keep them there as a sort of static defense/ keep the larva count up. Rarely do they make more then that unless they are trying to defend against an early air push. If players keep spawning queens or spawn a large number before a battle to heal there tanking unit and give it the infestor's frenzy ability (Ultra) they could just keep transfusing every time a unit is at low health, unless the player decides to target fire each ultra so they die instantly which will allow other units to actually reach the fight making ultras viable. They gave the queen a heal ability for a reason >.>, not for just defending pushes, but being on the offensive as well. Thats my opinion why it doesn't work by most players standards. They don't use the queens transfusion ability to its full extent. I bet first post against this will be a flame or a argument against me. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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Ideas
United States8125 Posts
maybe if frenzy also made the unit affected by it immune to bonus damages... | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
tells me that they have no idea what they are doing. They seem confused. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On May 23 2010 13:24 travis wrote: what makes u think many of us couldn't? we could certainly beat them at their games so... We are all inherently biased. Contrary to popular belief, Blizzard knows what they're doing, whether you agree with them or not. None of us are SC developers, so lets stop pretending like we are. | ||
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Wire
United States494 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:13 Jibba wrote: What are your thoughts on giving Ultras the armor upgrade by default? People need to realize that giving units traits by "default" is not a solution to a problem -.- The whole reason for the ultra nerf in stats is because without it frenzy would make it too OP. But, no one's using frenzy, so now the ultra looks nerfed in comparison. Personally I'm really with the "1 spell does not make the game" camp. Sure you have great spells like storm and fungal but lately I've just seen so much tinkering with 1 spell aimed at 1 unit and it's really frustrating because SC is suppose to be an rts, not a rpg. Things like fine tuning neural parasite and the whole ordeal with corruption and all the mothership madness and now this frenzy thing makes sc2 much less like its predecessor in the way it's played. I guess my point is at this point the intended buff backfired. I can't see anyone getting spending resources to buff a unit that prior to this patch had no really good use, and post patch is even more useless unless you get the spell. The best solution I believe would be to make it an ability (researchable or not thats a different discussion) that comes with the ultra. I think that not only exemplifies what Blizz wants to see but also solves the problem of the lack of frenzy usage due to fungal dominance. | ||
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:41 cursor wrote: I agree that with the nerf, and the addition to ZERG of all races, of all these single target buff/debuff spells... tells me that they have no idea what they are doing. They seem confused. They also seem not to have any creativity or imagination anymore. Last 4 spells added to zerg : - Corrupter +20% dommage ability - Fenzy for infestor - Overseer who instead of getting new spell get some old one (infested terran who is even more useless than before and corruption from corruptor) They seem to be totally unable to find cool spell anymore and they give us shit spell. I can't wait to see the next spell they invented: maybe some thing giving +2,34 strengh, +54 hp and +65 agility to the target unit ? | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:33 Twinweapon wrote: They did the hp nerf because there testers are good enough to bring queens to the battle and transfuse the Ultras while giving them the Frenzy ability. This was suppose to make the game more micro intensive for zerg as many players had complaints about how little micro was required. Now it requires quite a bit of micro and macro to pull it off. Thats my opinion for why they lowered the hp and gave the infestor a new ability that costs very little energy. The problem is that people at MOST(often it is one queen at base and 2 at natural imo) will make 2 queens at each base depending on the situation and will keep them there as a sort of static defense/ keep the larva count up. Rarely do they make more then that unless they are trying to defend against an early air push. If players keep spawning queens or spawn a large number before a battle to heal there tanking unit and give it the infestor's frenzy ability (Ultra) they could just keep transfusing every time a unit is at low health, unless the player decides to target fire each ultra so they die instantly which will allow other units to actually reach the fight making ultras viable. They gave the queen a heal ability for a reason >.>, not for just defending pushes, but being on the offensive as well. Thats my opinion why it doesn't work by most players standards. They don't use the queens transfusion ability to its full extent. I bet first post against this will be a flame or a argument against me. Yeah, because you're wrong. I brought up the idea of infusion + ultra about a month ago, and it turned out to be terrible. Infusion costs 50 energy for 150 hp (which is actually not a great deal) and has a very small casting range. There's no way you can have a slow queen chasing down an ultra to infuse it during battle. The ultra will outrun it and go pop, just the same as it does now. Keeping the ultra near the queen means it'll take longer to get to its target, so then the ultra and the queen go pop before they reach the target. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:46 Wire wrote: People need to realize that giving units traits by "default" is not a solution to a problem -.- The ultra's primary problem in this case is survivability and composition. The damage is completely overblown; the change in damage pales in comparison to the change in hp. Ultras were never the primary DDs in BW armies. They kind of increased the damage at the cost of survivability, which just exacerbates one of the major problems with using ultralisks. The 2 upgrades are slow as hell, and no one is going to build 2 caverns for it, yet you basically need both of them for the unit to be viable. I'm not saying that's the solution, I'm just asking if the op thinks it'd work, since he probably has more experience with ultras than anyone else. | ||
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Ideas
United States8125 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:54 Jibba wrote: Yeah, because you're wrong. I brought up the idea of infusion + ultra about a month ago, and it turned out to be terrible. Infusion costs 50 energy for 150 hp (which is actually not a great deal) and has a very small casting range. There's no way you can have a slow queen chasing down an ultra to infuse it during battle. The ultra will outrun it and go pop, just the same as it does now. Keeping the ultra near the queen means it'll take longer to get to its target, so then the ultra and the queen go pop before they reach the target. sounds like infusion should be given to the infestor over frenzy lol actually, -I don't really play zerg any more so it's just speculation-, but has anyone tried researching overlord drop and just carrying around 2-4 queens in overlord (how many can fit in an overlord btw?) so you can have them stay with your army better shuttle/reaver style and use them to transfusion ultras/provide more AA? seems like it could work moderately well... edit- I mean theoretically, 150 minerals for potentially 600 more HP on an ultra sounds like a pretty good deal (especially in the late game). | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
They were smart enough to hire Nick Plott for Blizzcon casting, so why can't they get it for players? David Kim and Matt "cowgomoo" Cooper are great, but not top level. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:59 Ideas wrote: sounds like infusion should be given to the infestor over frenzy lol actually, -I don't really play zerg any more so it's just speculation-, but has anyone tried researching overlord drop and just carrying around 2-4 queens in overlord (how many can fit in an overlord btw?) so you can have them stay with your army better shuttle/reaver style and use them to transfusion ultras/provide more AA? seems like it could work moderately well... edit- I mean theoretically, 150 minerals for potentially 600 more HP on an ultra sounds like a pretty good deal (especially in the late game). I don't remember if it has a cast time or not, but part of the problem when I tried it is just that 150 hp drops very quickly and you've got other things to do. If it were preemptive like D-matrix, that might make it more helpful. | ||
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Andtwo
United States126 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:33 Twinweapon wrote: They did the hp nerf because there testers are good enough to bring queens to the battle and transfuse the Ultras while giving them the Frenzy ability. This was suppose to make the game more micro intensive for zerg as many players had complaints about how little micro was required. Now it requires quite a bit of micro and macro to pull it off. This requires an awful lot of creep and queen energy buildup as well as infestor energy...that's an interesting idea, but the practicality of it (build queens, get lots of energy on lots of queens, getting queens to the ultras) seems situational at best. Transfusion isn't exactly cheap and you would need A LOT of queens and I can't think of many situations that this would be useful in that better use of pop/resources would be advisable. | ||
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Twinweapon
United States90 Posts
Yeah, because you're wrong. I brought up the idea of infusion + ultra about a month ago, and it turned out to be terrible. Infusion costs 50 energy for 150 hp (which is actually not a great deal) and has a very small casting range. There's no way you can have a slow queen chasing down an ultra to infuse it during battle. The ultra will outrun it and go pop, just the same as it does now. Keeping the ultra near the queen means it'll take longer to get to its target, so then the ultra and the queen go pop before they reach the target.[/QUOTE] When you attempted this did you have your queens on creep? hence why the queen is also given the ability to spread creep with creep tumors and overlords which are the zergs supply unit(So you will always have them) and if morphed into overseer harass unit. Spreading the creep allows for a faster movement which most players do across the map as zerg anyways so why not do it all the way to your enemy's base or use the hatchery trick and build creep right in front of his base where you need it most, on the offensive. And when I mean have queens use infusion, I mean have QUEENS as if you were massing them(8+ for the offensive). Of coarse tho you would need to harass with muta/overseer to slow down the production of certain units for units that your opponent will need to survive the harass and prevent it. Morphing a few overseers to slow down production of factories(as I assume it is mostly Terran zerg players are talking about) and other critical buildings that are required to fight zerg effectively as that will also throw off timings and will force the other player to make static defense around his production buildings. Just need to use all the abilities that are given to you as best as possible and I'm sure you will fine. Their PROFESSIONAL TESTERS obviously found a way to make use of ultra's or else they wouldn't have nerf'ed the hp. Now all you have to do is find out what they did to make them so effective that they would throw the balance of the game off in favor of the zerg. Meh, I'm tired. GL and HF. | ||
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mousepad
United States136 Posts
On May 23 2010 14:52 Trok67 wrote: They also seem not to have any creativity or imagination anymore. Last 4 spells added to zerg : - Corrupter +20% dommage ability - Fenzy for infestor - Overseer who instead of getting new spell get some old one (infested terran who is even more useless than before and corruption from corruptor) They seem to be totally unable to find cool spell anymore and they give us shit spell. I can't wait to see the next spell they invented: maybe some thing giving +2,34 strengh, +54 hp and +65 agility to the target unit ? I wouldn't say its lack of creativity -- more like lack of time. Theres 2 months before the game's release and the dev team doesn't have the time to create new animations or funky abilities. There's a whole lot of bug testing and quality assurance that still needs to be done. They're opting for the easiest abilities/spells that they can think of by using (1) Spells they already have (2) Assets in the game that are easily alterable. I wouldn't be surprised if frenzy's aura came from a scrapped dark swarm spell Not saying its the right thing to do, but I just don't think we should expect huge changes with the release date around the corner. | ||
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