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On May 17 2010 16:33 Artosis wrote:
i'll probably reply to a bunch of things said in here later when i feel like it, but i'd really like to point out guys, that i didn't actually complain or say zerg has been overnerfed. maybe they have, maybe they haven't. i'm honestly not biased, its still in beta, i can easily switch back to terran if i like. this article is more about why the korean zergs are the best, and what SEEMS to be happening (over-nerfing due to not understanding WHY zergs are doing so well).
I presumed that "over-nerfed" is what you were arguing based on the thread title, but if that was not your intention then I apologize for the misinterpretation. Your main point, that Korean Zergs are likely overpowered for reasons unrelated to gameplay balance is, of course, salient, though I have the feeling Blizzard intended to change the roach all-along, and was simply looking for an opportunity to do it.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
TeWy, you are ignorant and rude. dont know why the hell im wasting time responding to you, but the warp prism GETS USED IN BATTLES. i dont know if i mistakenly put in the observer or not.
thanks for showing everyone how crooked i am guy.
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Well, you might argue about the other units but the queen has the potential to be a very important defensive combat unit in the early stages of the game. Maybe this will change and maybe its different on the Korean servers but they are used to defend rushes quite often and in significant numbers (like 4 or so).
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United States22883 Posts
On May 17 2010 16:42 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. Truth is that you removed the overlord/overseer of the Zerg while keeping the observer/warp prism of the Protoss in order to make your point look better. You don't want to argue because there's nothing to argue, you made a dishonest claim and that's it. ^ Thank you, I'm adding the reaper.
No, the point he's making is about the number of build paths and strategies available. Overlords and Overseers are already there, the same way pylons and depots are. Overlords aren't an option. You could probably put Overseer and Observer together, but it's not like you're really making much of a choice with Overseer as you are when you decide to be late or early with observers, or skip them.
You forgot Mothership too.
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On May 17 2010 16:47 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, you are ignorant and rude. dont know why the hell im wasting time responding to you, but the warp prism GETS USED IN BATTLES. i dont know if i mistakenly put in the observer or not.
thanks for showing everyone how crooked i am guy.
^ The Mothership is in.
If you count the warp prism you have to count the overseer as well, you mistakenly put the oberver in.
It's down to 10 Zerg units and 12 Protoss/Terran Units.
It wasn't my intention to be rude, english is not my 1st language.
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On May 17 2010 16:50 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 16:47 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, you are ignorant and rude. dont know why the hell im wasting time responding to you, but the warp prism GETS USED IN BATTLES. i dont know if i mistakenly put in the observer or not.
thanks for showing everyone how crooked i am guy. ^ The Mothership is in. If you count the warp prism you have to count the overseer as well, you mistakenly put the oberver in. It's down to 10 Zerg units and 12 Protoss/Terran Units. It wasn't my intention to be rude, english is not my 1st language. You are just arguing useless specifics when the intention of the numbers is to show that Zerg is based off fewer types of units and less diverse compositions than the other races.
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On May 17 2010 16:52 Shatter wrote:
You are just arguing useless specifics when the intention of the numbers is to show that Zerg is based off fewer types of units and less diverse compositions than the other races.
I am not too sure about that. If the difference actually ist not 14 to 9 but 12 to 10 than that is not just "useless specifics". There still ist less diversity in possible compositions but the race difference is less severe than artosis pointed out. Then again, this doesn't say that the initial argument wasn't good.
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If you count warp prism you have to count overlord as some players bring them with army to crap creep as a speed bonus for the army same as others bring prism for warping..
Seems biased.. counting everything in other races and selective about zerg..
And zerg "static" defence could be counted as half-units.. Kinda like how you move and siege tanks you move and root crawlers..
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On May 17 2010 16:47 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, you are ignorant and rude. dont know why the hell im wasting time responding to you, but the warp prism GETS USED IN BATTLES. i dont know if i mistakenly put in the observer or not.
thanks for showing everyone how crooked i am guy.
I'm sorry but couldn't you say the same about overlords and overseers? Overlords for drops and creep spewing and overseers as detectors?
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To go off on that point, Zerg units are also simpler than those of other races.
Let's compare the different air forces for a preliminary example.
Zerg air force:
Mutalisks are simple attack units. They attack air and ground, do the same damage to both, and are rather straight-forward in their usage. Unlike BW, there is no special skill associated with Mutalisks. They are a generic air attack unit.
Corrupters are also simple attack units. They are anti-massive and specifically anti-colossus. Their present ability is simply an extra buff on top of the existing anti-massive role. They can also be used against phoenixes because of their range and armored type, but can't chase down phoenixes and are so usually used in an only passive manner as part of the composition.
Broodlords are slightly more complicated, but again, what you have is a unit designed for a single role: anti-ground. How to use Broodlords is straight-forward. The only thing you have to worry about is positioning.
Now let's look at Protoss air:
Phoenixes are primarily air-attackers, but can also harass ground. Most people did not understand the potential of phoenixes until Nony demonstrated it. Phoenixes require micro skill in order to perform well, more so than Mutalisks ever did in SC 2.
Void Rays are an odd unit. Their charge system requires both micro and planning to reach optimal usage. Their fragility means that they are not a fire-and-forget unit. There are numerous tricks associated with Void Rays that you never see with Corrupters.
Carriers are basically never used, but even then they are harder to use compared to Broodlords because of the need to keep track of interceptors and the ability to kite.
Motherships require careful timing of their abilities, especially in combo with other abilities, for effective use. They are definitely not a fire-and-forget unit.
Terran air:
Vikings are dual-purpose units. They are anti-air, but can also harass ground and spot for tanks. This makes them similar to the phoenix, except that the lift-and-land mechanic requires even more planning to not end up disastrously.
Banshees are quintessential harassers but can also play a role as anti-ground. They have a special ability that entire builds are designed around. They require a lot of micro for effective usage.
Ravens are spellcasters. All their abilities require careful planning to use effectively.
Battlecruiers are almost never used. But even they have a special ability that needs to be timed and micro'd correctly for optimal usage.
From this it's pretty obvious that Zerg air units, at least, should be easier in the learning curve. Similar arguments can probably be made for ground though there are some interesting units there that do require a lot of skill to use correctly (ie infestors, banelings).
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I believe many other zerg players are THIS close to changing their race as well. If blizzard doesn't make some drastic changes with zerg, then I'm jumping on the terran wagon, just like Cool[fOu] and TheWinD.
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I think the point is that you can almost always expect to see Terran and Protoss use their variety of units with MMM+hellions, valks, ravens, maybe banshees and ravens or zealots, sentry, stalker, HT, colossus, immortals and maybe some voids or phoenixes. While Zerg is almost always going to be a few zerglings to Hydra/Roach with some mutas/corrupters, with a smaller chance of seeing the other stuff. The hard numbers themselves don't explain it fully, the frequency of usage must be factored in as well. Zerg easily has the least diversity in making a standard build and that when accompanied by the smaller amount of units is what makes the Zerg more restricted to limited strategies and hence people being able to master them faster.
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On May 17 2010 17:11 bendez wrote:
I believe many other zerg players are THIS close to changing their race as well. If blizzard doesn't make some drastic changes with zerg, then I'm jumping on the terran wagon, just like Cool[fOu] and TheWinD.
I know many players who have already made the change; zerg ==> terran after patch 12. But for some reason some people are moving from protoss ==> zerg aswell, I have no idea why, maybe they are tired of mirror mirror-MUs since everyone and his mother is going protoss. Mayby they think Z is a strong race? They are in for a suprise.
I just listened to a streamer who started going protoss after patch 12, he went 20:3 win ratio and got so bored that he turned back to Z where he gets more of a fight. Just saying. To many people calling Z OP when in reallity, its probably the other way around, the macro intensity of Z attracts good players.
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I can understand Blizzard changing the roach from 1 food to 2 as an idea. The problem is they nerfed roaches as a unit instead of the food cost rout, for a so many patches that it makes no sense for them to go around the other way and just plop this change on. Unless they are going to revert all(or most) of the old changes and maybe give roaches + 1 range, or keep them at one food but do something else to make other zerg units more enticing as a late game unit maybe by nerfing the roaches damage output :\, I dunno.
The roach at one food per unit was probably the most powerful unit in the game for its cost so much so that they skewed zerg late game compositions way in that direction, something like 60% of the army made up of roaches and everything else as support, because why wouldn't you? In almost all situations food for food the roach would be stronger than any other zerg unit. So much so that there was basically no reason to use them unless they were good support for the roach. This also ended up with a weird situation where zerg in some situations had the strongest 200/200 army of any of the races, at least in an area of open ground where you could clamp down with your roaches with a good surround you could overwhelm basically any opposing army without even the need to replenish, which maybe is fine I suppose zerg armies don't have to work the same way they did in SC1 using like 2 armies to crush equal sized protoss or terran(mech) force.
I can still understand why Blizzard thought there was something weird about 1 roach taking up the same amount of food as 1 marine or 2 zerglings or maybe more to the point 70 roaches lategame taking up only 70 food. The funny thing is blizzard wants to diversify the units zergs are using, but now they've pretty much just removed the usefulness of one of them heh  . Oh well betas are betas for a reason.
TLDR: Blizzard should have admitted their mistake and made roaches 2 food from the get go instead of pussyfooting around with other nerfs, because now all those small nerfs combined with this huge one have made roaches un-desirable as a unit :/.
Edit: My major issue with this patch is that I play Terran and TvZ is my favorite match-up, I don't mind TvP, but if the only other race around for me to play is other Terrans than I can't even be bothered, because honestly those guys are fags.
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The forum whining is spreading everywhere.
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God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls...
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I hardly think a food increase to roach is an over-nerf to Zerg, and Zerg seems to be doing fine after the patch as well, many Zerg before the nerf went straight to Hydralisk anyway :o
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On May 17 2010 16:33 Artosis wrote:
i'll probably reply to a bunch of things said in here later when i feel like it, but i'd really like to point out guys, that i didn't actually complain or say zerg has been overnerfed.
I think that the title you chose is a source of much of this confusion then. It pretty clearly implies that you think zerg have been over-nerfed.
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the roach nerf actually made zerg stronger because people have realised that speedlings and hydralisks are godlike... and people altered their builds to compete against roach armies, which is now less effective.
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Given that all the big-name players are playing Zerg, might this over-nerf be intentional in order to push more famous/skilled players into the other two races to get their builds and strategies a little more developed? Even if it isn't intentional, isn't that a potential positive outcome anyway? It seems like in Korea there's definitely an interest imbalance in favour of Zerg, and causing (in whatever way) Koreans to better develop all three races seems like it would be good for everyone and for SC2.
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EPT
