|
On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
i dont like this argument, blizzard has made roaches next to useless once you start nearing 200 / 200 food then every living roach left standing can be considered wasted supply and their tech turns into useless garbage.
and its funny because the ROACH has the most research aviable, burrow movement, high regen while burrowed after hive tech and the extra movement speed.
Every ounce of gas spent on improving them as a unit is gas you could have spent elsewhere while their counter and staple terran army unit, the marauder just gets better and better as you add more and more support, raven point defence drone and medivac healing, the roach just get worse as the game progresses onwards.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive, tech past roaches and get hydra.
|
On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play?
You're only proving my point.
EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches.
|
I like point number 1 
|
On May 18 2010 10:07 Mania[K]al wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play? You're only proving my point. EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches.
I'm not sure what you two are arguing about but you can't possibly think having a unit so useless that its not really worth getting except in special circumstances (helion or mass marines) is that good when your race as a whole already has barely any units. Its fine for maybe someone like Protoss since they have so many different units, but for Zerg if this keeps up, Zerg will have no units from which to actually develop a strategy.
It doesn't neccessarily make zerg underpowered, but it removed one of their already extremely limited number of strategies (makes the diversity issue even worse than it was before)
|
On May 18 2010 10:17 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:07 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play? You're only proving my point. EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches. I'm not sure what you two are arguing about but you can't possibly think having a unit so useless that its not really worth getting except in special circumstances (helion or mass marines) is that good when your race as a whole already has barely any units. Its fine for maybe someone like Protoss since they have so many different units, but for Zerg if this keeps up, Zerg will have no units from which to actually develop a strategy. It doesn't neccessarily make zerg underpowered, but it removed one of their already extremely limited number of strategies (makes the diversity issue even worse than it was before)
And despite this massively gimp Zerg race, according to everyone here, Idra and Sen both eliminated great Protoss players. Without roaches.
|
what zerg players won't admit or do not realize is that zerg started out completely OP, and where they once dominated players of their own skill they are now even with them, which makes them have an inflated opinion of their own skill level, so they think it MUST be imba if they start losing points on the ladder.
I'm not so sure about the most recent roach nerf (supply 1->2) but all the previous nerfs were completely justified and necessary.
And people stop whining about maruaders being OP. They are not, and high platinum players have known this for weeks. I personally hardly ever make maruaders, only doing so in special situations in TvZ / TvT.
|
koreans are not know to be the most creative, they like getting a build and practicing it, thus, that is their culture. There are way to many factors to come to such conclusions about zerg so early.
|
On May 18 2010 10:46 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
what zerg players won't admit or do not realize is that zerg started out completely OP, and where they once dominated players of their own skill they are now even with them, which makes them have an inflated opinion of their own skill level, so they think it MUST be imba if they start losing points on the ladder. [1]
I'm not so sure about the most recent roach nerf (supply 1->2) but all the previous nerfs were completely justified and necessary. [2]
And people stop whining about maruaders being OP. They are not, and high platinum players have known this for weeks. I personally hardly ever make maruaders, only doing so in special situations in TvZ / TvT. [3]
[1] I don't see what this pointless derogatory conjecture adds to this discussion.
[2] I agree with this, and so do most of the people in this thread. That's what a lot of the complaints are about. The previous nerfs are understandable but not in combination with the current nerfs. Bounds were overstepped so much that now Roaches are a niche unit, not even serving the purpose of supporting a large army (because they take up too much space and do not give enough utility).
So since on this point
a) I agree with you.
b) Most people in the thread agree with you.
I don't see why you feel the need to to make your first statement.
[3] Why would you make anything but a handful of marauders in TvZ when there are no roaches? Just enough marauders to wall off banelings and focus down spinecrawlers is all any Terran should ever build now. They don't excel at killing Hydralisks OR Zerglings OR Mutalisks. So now marauders have been reduced to a "you need X marauders to wall off your marines" unit. I think you would agree that it's less interesting than before when you could potentially build lots of marauders to counter a Roach-heavy army.
And still you somehow need to slander top Zerg players with your first statement.
There is a real reason that people complain about this change. Yes, it does affect Zerg's ability to win, and yes all Zerg players are biased in favor of Zerg winning. But having Roaches be a practically worthless "waste" unit makes the game less interesting.
There's a lot of discussion about ultras (as if buffing ultras is gonna make roaches useful?) and other units, but roaches should serve some kind of tangible purpose - and right now they don't.
|
On May 18 2010 11:00 BlueApex wrote:
koreans are not know to be the most creative, they like getting a build and practicing it, thus, that is their culture. There are way to many factors to come to such conclusions about zerg so early.
What part of Korean play in Starcraft has not been creative? They've pretty much pioneered every major build and strategy in the game for the better part of the past decade... What part of that is not creative? It takes creativity to bring the game to new heights. Sure, they practice a lot and try to perfect their mechanics, but so does any athlete or competitor.
Personally, I disagree with the argument presented by Artosis. It doesn't convince me simply because the SC2 community isn't such that the top players have such a massive influence on the strategy and playstyle of the masses yet. Also, if it was simply a matter of less options being easier to figure out, there's no reason to think that the advantage wouldn't have carried over the other servers either, which they obviously haven't. I think it'd be interesting to see stats that show us how often each race is played on a particular server. It could very well just be a coincidence with Asian players playing Zerg a lot more than the other races or at least a lot more than the other servers...
|
On May 18 2010 10:17 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:07 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play? You're only proving my point. EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches. I'm not sure what you two are arguing about but you can't possibly think having a unit so useless that its not really worth getting except in special circumstances (helion or mass marines) is that good when your race as a whole already has barely any units. Its fine for maybe someone like Protoss since they have so many different units, but for Zerg if this keeps up, Zerg will have no units from which to actually develop a strategy. It doesn't neccessarily make zerg underpowered, but it removed one of their already extremely limited number of strategies (makes the diversity issue even worse than it was before) ehhh on the contrary..? instead of roaches all day every day, you now go (b)lings+roaches vs mass marines, zealots, lings or otherwise lings+hyds vs immortals, stalkers, marauders, roaches.
and if reacting to the opponent isnt your thing, don't fast expand and go 1 base roaches - you'll just need an overlord more that early. instead of 8 roaches and an overlord, you'll have 7 roaches and two overlords... boohoo...
there's still so much stuff, i never see used:
- drops are common for terrans. we are familiar with warp prisms and a pair of immortals. but when was the last time you saw a zerg load up? well ok there was this one time on the cynicalbrit stream with the baneling drop...
- nydus network: superb mobility. on the asia server it's even used on LT's natural cliffs to harass with spine crawlers as nydus heads also provide creep. and you can go back and forth with that thing. granted, it's not "instant" which is why i'd like the spitting-out duration of units to be dependant on food consumption/shuttle size/ressource value/anything else that scales with the value of a unit.
- sneaky roaches: well ok, TLO does it from time to time.... anyone else..?
- sneaky infestors... doesn't even need research per se - although i must admit that even with the speed research, they're not exactly comfortable to utilize...
that sort of stuff...
|
On May 18 2010 11:00 BlueApex wrote:
koreans are not know to be the most creative, they like getting a build and practicing it, thus, that is their culture. There are way to many factors to come to such conclusions about zerg so early.
HAHAHA its a joke right!? RIGHT!? HAHAHA
|
English fail!
|
On May 18 2010 11:47 Kyouya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 11:00 BlueApex wrote:
koreans are not know to be the most creative, they like getting a build and practicing it, thus, that is their culture. There are way to many factors to come to such conclusions about zerg so early. HAHAHA its a joke right!? RIGHT!? HAHAHA
half and half i would say
on this one. dismissing it like that is just a pointless post.
Koreans are creative at coming up with new strategies however the ones that are viable and versatile stay and become the building block for every matchup. Once something is good people who can win late game with better mechanics stick to the proper build and are more static about creativity. There will always be people coming up with new tactics from all over the world and based on how much people play, those who play more will think more about the game, therefore, more tactics.
|
Relax please, nothing Blizzard..oh wait Activison...hmm ((Vivendi does)) is without purpose. Keep in mind there are three, yes three installments of SC2. What you are most likely getting traumatized over isn't that they are having problems balancing the Beta; its how are they balancing the three installments.
|
It's been clearly demonstrated in the thread that the unit counting is such a subjectively defined method that it can't seriously stand up as any sort of evidence.
But to tackle the second part that's posted on MYM, which is basically:
Zerg looks good because the best Asian players have overwhelmingly chosen Zerg.
I would argue that reversing the causal direction is a more compelling story.
If they really have all clustered to one race (I haven't seen enough of the Korean scene to examine the accuracy of this), what are the chances that this happened randomly, when in brood war the distribution is not skewed too significantly (thus negating other possible aesthetics/preference explanations like Zerg just is cooler looking or players enjoy their building system more)?
What we do know is that top players are top players because they maximize their chance at winning. So if they identify that Zerg is "stronger" or has more potential in the hands of a skilled player, top players will logically prefer Zerg, no? A more specific statement than the previous sentence (inserting my opinion: more true statement) might be that Zerg is overwhelmingly more likely to win any game that reaches high economic production due to more flexible and higher maximum production capabilities (setting its downsides which diminish as economies grow aside--economies of scale anyone?), and top players see this style as more adaptable with fewer potential limits in the long run of gameplay development.
|
you can never Nerf a players skill  Korean Zerg players are just goons!
|
On May 18 2010 11:00 BlueApex wrote:
koreans are not know to be the most creative, they like getting a build and practicing it, thus, that is their culture. There are way to many factors to come to such conclusions about zerg so early.
That is a huge generalization. I have one word for you: Boxer
|
Not to stray too far from the flaming, but Mymym seems to be having server issues. Is there any chance the full article could be updated in the OP or in a blog post? Being a Zerg player and liking (agreeing with) what I have read, I am anxious to read the rest.
|
On May 18 2010 10:46 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
what zerg players won't admit or do not realize is that zerg started out completely OP, and where they once dominated players of their own skill they are now even with them, which makes them have an inflated opinion of their own skill level, so they think it MUST be imba if they start losing points on the ladder.
I'm not so sure about the most recent roach nerf (supply 1->2) but all the previous nerfs were completely justified and necessary.
And people stop whining about maruaders being OP. They are not, and high platinum players have known this for weeks. I personally hardly ever make maruaders, only doing so in special situations in TvZ / TvT.
i dont thing any is agruging the post nerfs to the roach, and are only saying that giving the raoch the +1 supply has made them much more ineffective in late game nearing a 200/200 army, the zerg is supposed to be all about massing and massng amd massing, but with the recent neft, we have to play more like a sc toss :D
|
On May 18 2010 09:19 roark wrote:
I think everyone is focusing on the part about how many units each race has too much.
If you look at the strategy threads on this forum alone and observe professional games you often see the following units in play from each race:
Terran
Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Tank, Viking, Banshee, Thor, Repear, Hellion, Raven, Ghost
Protoss
Zealot, Sentry, Staker, Phoenix, Colossi, Immortal, Void Ray, High Templar
Zerg
Zergling, Hydra, Roach, Baneling, Infestor, Broodlord, Muta, Corrupter
Total number of units aside, I think Artosis is right in his concept of "stream-lined" learning.
Every single game Zerg players are predominately relying on the use of about 6 units, often less. This allows you to learn a lot about a unit and its match-ups quickly.
I also think that Terran having many units with specific roles was intended, as is Zerg having much more malleable units situationally. Ex: Zerg's units may not be hard-counters or have lots of bonus damage, but they can be massed and fill a variety of roles.
So official unit count aside, the player base has deemed what units they are wililng to use. For Zerg players that is a smaller pool of units.
Add a large number of top level players playing this race and you have players learning their fewer units rapidly. Not because the race only has a few units, but because those units are what the player-base decided was worth while.
His goal was to show that if many high level players, play a race with a small pool of units (chosen as useful by the community of players), then they will do very well.
Meanwhile equal or lesser players will have to attempt to learn how to use their larger pool of units and the accompanying strategies.
The smaller pool of units and macro oriented race to which they belonged was likely to succeed.
Therfore allowing the other races to gain enough time to catch up is necessary to see what "balance" really is.
It is hard to say if it was an over-nerf. And as that one insightful poster said, "the roach nerf may be a ploy to give more players incentive to play the other races." So in making players feel like Zerg got hit with the nerf-bat to hard, they are getting more players working on strategy on the more unit-diverse races.
Sorry I could not write a shorter post. My 2 cents.
I think you are absolutely right, so I'm going to piggy back on your post and say my 2-cents, which I've been thinking about for about a week or so.
so in BW, which I think that everyone can agree on is a much more diverse and complete game than SC2 in it's current state. here's what we have as mainstream units used in pro-matches in BW.
Terran
Marine, Firebat, Medic, Ghost*, Siege Tank, Vulture, Goliath, Dropship, Wraith, Science Vessel, Valkyrie*, Battlecruiser.
Protoss
Zealot, Dragoon, Dark Templar, High Templar, Dark Archon*, Archon, Shuttle, Reaver, Observer, Corsair, Carrier, Arbiter.
Zerg
Zergling, Hydralisk, Lurker, Overlord*, Mutalisk, Scourge, Guardian, Defiler, Queen*.
*I wanted to make special notes about these units, as they are not "standard" units:
Ghost - definitely sees action in proleague, however it is still very strategy specific, and is very unorthodox, but it's still used effectively, so I can't count it out.
Valkyrie - Like the ghost, I've only seen the Valkyrie used as an answer to Fast Mutas in Mech style TvZ, other than that, it's never used, + Show Spoiler +although it's the best unit in the game, from a totally biased standpoint here, at least SC2 has Vikings which may be even more kick-ass ^^
Dark Archon - Again, like the previous two, Dark Archons are only used situationally, such as when Toss goes DT's, get's deflected, and then countered with air, Dark Archons can be morphed for their maelstrom ability on stacked air units.
Overlord - Included these guys, because they are invaluable for detection, early scouting, and later drops, yet they I just don't quite feel right including them as a battle ready unit, because they still are the supply source.
Queen - I have heard of a build (maybe it was Jaedong?) that incorporated Queens effectively, other than that, queens are rarely, if ever, used.
So, that being said, look at the Unit lists. Notice a theme?
Here's SC2:
Terran
Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Tank, Viking, Banshee, Thor, Reaper, Hellion, Raven, Ghost
Protoss
Zealot, Sentry, Staker, Phoenix, Colossi, Immortal, Void Ray, High Templar, Dark Templar
Zerg
Zergling, Hydra, Roach, Baneling, Infestor, Broodlord, Mutalisk, Corrupter, Overseer.
Terran has 11 units, Protoss has 9, and Zerg also has 9, when including the Overseer, which I almost don't want to do, but it is zergs only means of detection besides Spore crawlers. And these a effective battle units.
since I believe, along with many top players, that Terran is the most complete race, here's what i think should be done in terms of balance.
Terran - Everything should be balanced off of Terran. One thing I do think that Blizz needs to look at is the relationship between Vikings and VR's in PvT. right now, the only way Terran can counter Void Rays is to use massive amounts of Marines and Vikings. I think if Vikings became a Light unit, instead of an armoured unit, it would balance this matchup out a little bit. VR rushes won't completely stomp a Terran if they are prepared, but I worry that it will also make vikings stronger vs. everything else toss has, so I don't know here.
Protoss - I think toss is pretty damn close, they need a little something extra. I think if they buff archons, by a) making them cheaper, and b) increasing their splash radius more, they would be better. I honestly don't know how they would fair in a battle, but blizzard's best way to figure this out is to make them OP, see how they are used, and then scale them back as needed for release.
Zerg - Zerg needs the most work. The first thing that Bliz needs to do is reduce the size of Ultralisks, so they don't have as much surface area, and are more practical in battle, or, they need to just make the maps bigger. Either way, the Ultras size is their biggest liability and that needs to get fixed so that they are a viable end-game unit for zerg in all MU's. I may be alone in that I like Blizzards decision to nerf Roaches, if it provides a more diverse gameplay from Zerg.
I think all of these fixes would be a good start, and in addition to addin moving shot + Show Spoiler + it would make the gae much better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
