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On May 18 2010 10:31 Mania[K]al wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:17 Disastorm wrote:On May 18 2010 10:07 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play? You're only proving my point. EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches. I'm not sure what you two are arguing about but you can't possibly think having a unit so useless that its not really worth getting except in special circumstances (helion or mass marines) is that good when your race as a whole already has barely any units. Its fine for maybe someone like Protoss since they have so many different units, but for Zerg if this keeps up, Zerg will have no units from which to actually develop a strategy. It doesn't neccessarily make zerg underpowered, but it removed one of their already extremely limited number of strategies (makes the diversity issue even worse than it was before) And despite this massively gimp Zerg race, according to everyone here, Idra and Sen both eliminated great Protoss players. Without roaches.
Your missing the diversity point. If zerg won 50% of the time vs other races, but always had to do the same build every game with the same unit at the same timing... wouldn't that a bad thing?
Same thing with roaches. Sure zergs can win without roaches. But shouldn't roaches be useful for... something? It's not balance, it's gameplay and variety.
This isn't my own point of view (I don't know enough to have a valid opinion on what should be what) but you just seem to be not understanding this particular complaint.
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On May 18 2010 10:46 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
what zerg players won't admit or do not realize is that zerg started out completely OP, and where they once dominated players of their own skill they are now even with them, which makes them have an inflated opinion of their own skill level, so they think it MUST be imba if they start losing points on the ladder.
Painful, but yes it had to be said.
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On May 18 2010 13:37 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:31 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:17 Disastorm wrote:On May 18 2010 10:07 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play? You're only proving my point. EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches. I'm not sure what you two are arguing about but you can't possibly think having a unit so useless that its not really worth getting except in special circumstances (helion or mass marines) is that good when your race as a whole already has barely any units. Its fine for maybe someone like Protoss since they have so many different units, but for Zerg if this keeps up, Zerg will have no units from which to actually develop a strategy. It doesn't neccessarily make zerg underpowered, but it removed one of their already extremely limited number of strategies (makes the diversity issue even worse than it was before) And despite this massively gimp Zerg race, according to everyone here, Idra and Sen both eliminated great Protoss players. Without roaches. Your missing the diversity point. If zerg won 50% of the time vs other races, but always had to do the same build every game with the same unit at the same timing... wouldn't that a bad thing? Same thing with roaches. Sure zergs can win without roaches. But shouldn't roaches be useful for... something? It's not balance, it's gameplay and variety. This isn't my own point of view (I don't know enough to have a valid opinion on what should be what) but you just seem to be not understanding this particular complaint.
Everyone also seems to have forgotten that in SC1 races had distinct playstyles. Zerg has less units than the other races because theyre based around the ability to mass their fragile creatures at a very fast pace. If they had the same number of units as another race all playing different roles there would be no way to keep up tech wise to counter whatever zerg felt like massing and throwing at you.
However, in SC2 Blizzard has washed out the race distinctions and gave everyone the same general units(Excluding anything high tech here). But, Zerg still has the best macro race in the game, and was awarded a tank unit which it lacked in SC1(till ultras in late tvz, but once again were excluding high tech), and its a tier ONE unit. At 1 food, the capability of being able to quickly mass a large army of purely your tanking unit at tier 1 is ridiculous. That alone hurt your diversity more than just having 7 or 8 combat units total because Zerg feel that if they don't mass roaches they'll fall behind in army strength.
Now with roaches sitting where they are at 2 food, where they belong with all the other tank units, Zerg are forced to explore alternative routes in handling every matchup ultimately HELPING zerg unit diversity.
EDIT: Winning 50% is winning 50%. doesnt matter what units you used. Does anyone complain that SC1 tvt is always the same 3 units? ZvZ the same 3 units? PvP the same 4 units?
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zergs only have 9 units: zergling, baneling, roach, hydralisk, infestor, mutalisk, corrupter, broodlord, ultralisk. But technically now it is only 6.
As stated before, ultralisk are currently useless, roaches were recently made worthless as well, corrupters are only for colossus or else it goes straight to broodlord (so maybe a tiny niche unit, like a battlecruiser). So what are you left with? zergling + baneling till liar, add hydralisk and mutalisk.
Infestors were originally a decent choice, but banelings seem to be more effective now, since mmm balls have to run constantly when chased by banelings, allowing zerglings and mutas to safely pick off the army as oppose to getting shot at while fungal growthed. Also banelings kills marines really fast, to the point where medivacs cant heal in time.
So guess what the asians are doing since patch 12? zergling, baneling + muta or hydralisks. While this method can be stale, it works against everything. An hence instead of having to practice different strats, zerg players can just refine 1 strat only.
This is the problem most people are complaining about. Giving zergs more units or diversity does not necessarily have to make zerg stronger, they just want more options. Although I personally like zergs current state (cept for the roach nerf), I am not a big fan for new strats through a whole bunch of different units, Id rather see awesome usage of 1 unit.
For terran, you can fast hellion, fast banshee, fast thor drop, standard mmm, maurauder tank... yay cool build but i think its cooler if I can do/see a simple zergling runby, or zergling harassing multiple places and such (or maybe burrowed banelings), because that is truely a display of good mechanics, timings and awareness, unlike half of the protoss/terran strats which involves just getting the right unit combinations and upgrades followed by a-move.
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On May 18 2010 14:12 Triik wrote:
zergs only have 9 units: zergling, baneling, roach, hydralisk, infestor, mutalisk, corrupter, broodlord, ultralisk. But technically now it is only 6.
As stated before, ultralisk are currently useless, roaches were recently made worthless as well, corrupters are only for colossus or else it goes straight to broodlord (so maybe a tiny niche unit, like a battlecruiser). So what are you left with? zergling + baneling till liar, add hydralisk and mutalisk.
Infestors were originally a decent choice, but banelings seem to be more effective now, since mmm balls have to run constantly when chased by banelings, allowing zerglings and mutas to safely pick off the army as oppose to getting shot at while fungal growthed. Also banelings kills marines really fast, to the point where medivacs cant heal in time.
So guess what the asians are doing since patch 12? zergling, baneling + muta or hydralisks. While this method can be stale, it works against everything. An hence instead of having to practice different strats, zerg players can just refine 1 strat only.
This is the problem most people are complaining about. Giving zergs more units or diversity does not necessarily have to make zerg stronger, they just want more options. Although I personally like zergs current state (cept for the roach nerf), I am not a big fan for new strats through a whole bunch of different units, Id rather see awesome usage of 1 unit.
For terran, you can fast hellion, fast banshee, fast thor drop, standard mmm, maurauder tank... yay cool build but i think its cooler if I can do/see a simple zergling runby, or zergling harassing multiple places and such (or maybe burrowed banelings), because that is truely a display of good mechanics, timings and awareness, unlike half of the protoss/terran strats which involves just getting the right unit combinations and upgrades followed by a-move.
This is obscenely stupid. You could say the same thing about most units in the game. We KNOW ultras are getting buffed and saying roaches are "usless" is a flat out lie. Maybe if all these zerg supporters would get rid of hyperbole from their arsenal people would take their arguments more seriously.
I really hope you aren't implying that Infestors aren't amazingly great against MMM either.
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A difference that should be considered is that korean players or in general anyone that has played SC or other RTS games a lot will not to just mass attacking units into their opponent.
I get the impression that people here seem to think that zerg is the most a-click race of the three races however this only can only slightly holds in early game and if people try to do this with zerg mid game or especially late game they'll get clobbered.
As I see it Zergs' strength is not the ability to overpower an opposing army, its the ability to hit where the opposing army is not. Supply for supply and even cost for cost zerg will not be able to beat the other races' late game in direct confrontation. The entire theme behind zerg is being able to backstab your opponent and ruin their economy when they try to move out.
Zerg is about mobility and harassing capabilities which benifits greatly from previous RTS experience.
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On May 18 2010 13:37 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:31 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:17 Disastorm wrote:On May 18 2010 10:07 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 18 2010 10:05 Madkipz wrote:On May 18 2010 09:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
I wouldn't mind the thread had the nerf been more than a few days old, and had Idra not rolled over Nony or Sen not reverse kill White_Ra.
People take a nerf, continue to do what has been working then realize it doesn't work anymore because of the nerf and instantly complain about if en mass before even trying to work around it.
Work around Roach nerf? MORE LIKE: Roaches have been hit by the nerfbat so many times that im not going to produce a single one and rather use lings to stay alive. Is that how you want to play? You're only proving my point. EDIT: and to answer your question, i love using ling/bling when i random zerg instead of roaches. I'm not sure what you two are arguing about but you can't possibly think having a unit so useless that its not really worth getting except in special circumstances (helion or mass marines) is that good when your race as a whole already has barely any units. Its fine for maybe someone like Protoss since they have so many different units, but for Zerg if this keeps up, Zerg will have no units from which to actually develop a strategy. It doesn't neccessarily make zerg underpowered, but it removed one of their already extremely limited number of strategies (makes the diversity issue even worse than it was before) And despite this massively gimp Zerg race, according to everyone here, Idra and Sen both eliminated great Protoss players. Without roaches. Your missing the diversity point. If zerg won 50% of the time vs other races, but always had to do the same build every game with the same unit at the same timing... wouldn't that a bad thing? Same thing with roaches. Sure zergs can win without roaches. But shouldn't roaches be useful for... something? It's not balance, it's gameplay and variety. This isn't my own point of view (I don't know enough to have a valid opinion on what should be what) but you just seem to be not understanding this particular complaint.
You shouldn't argue with him, he's too stupid to realize he's proving our point for us. Roaches aren't useful, the most roach happy mofo on the planet didn't use them... AT ALL in PvZ.
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Great post. As a Zerg I really hope to see the complexity of the race and game increase as time goes on.
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-ling from dps monster to early game unit (filler unit)
-hydra from allrounder to glass cannon (simple DD)
-lurker from long range stealth splash to short range burst splash (baneling) (simple DD)
-ultra from tank to damage dealer against small units (simple DD)
-roach --> new basic unit compareable with hyda or ling ins SC1 (tank)
-muta --> muta, slightly worse (micro, guardians)
lings are just too weak and roaches don't have AA, while on hive everything except for broodlords is rubbish.post-poning lair tech, or relatively fast hive-tech are no options: there is basically ONLY LAIR TECH.
there is no diversity, and no matter how you look at it, it IS to a big part the counter system thats causing it. (not only hard counters)
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Blizzard made the roach 2 supply without introducing additional zerg changes to see how a 2 supply roach would affect the unit composition of late game zerg armies and to see statistically how this affects the zerg W/L ratio for each matchup.
It really couldn't be more obvious what Blizzard is doing. The whole thing about people switching races is just melodrama.
Everyone (by everyone I mean select posters in this thread) need to stop complaining and learn to play with a 2 supply roach and wait for more changes. This is what Blizzard wants you to do, and if you play zerg, what you have to do. It IS the beta afterall..
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As far as I can see the zerg players are still doing well in the tournament matches that have taken place since patch 12 was released, so is it not a bit early to be proclaiming them overnerfed?
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Zerg are ok if you just FE into mass hydra.
Everything else is just rubbish.
Oh and for the people who say OMG ZERG DID GOOD vP. Yeah try vs Terran going mech.
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ZvP has become harder but not particularly imbalanced.
ZvT became impossible. You cant stop terran mech.
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although ive yet to try the day 9 baneling only strat
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Yeah, I just lost 8 matches in a row after the patch as zerg. I'm tired of playing >.< People beat me with one unit, without expanding, without forethought. It's very encouraging.
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I will defend Blizzard's right to balance the game IN BETA the way the see fit...but surely no one here is seriously arguing that a useless unit is a good thing simply because it forces you to find workarounds?
What does this argument even mean? Why not include civilians then? Are the useless units there to make it a little harder, in terms of interface, to get the good ones? Are they there because Blizzard feels that someone will EVENTUALLY find a use for them? Are they there as SURPRISE! units that are underused and therefore no one will expect them when they are used that one in a hundred times?
Aside from the first, these are serious questions. I don't quite understand how useless units can be defensible.
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On May 18 2010 18:21 space_yes wrote:
Blizzard made the roach 2 supply without introducing additional zerg changes to see how a 2 supply roach would affect the unit composition of late game zerg armies and to see statistically how this affects the zerg W/L ratio for each matchup.
It really couldn't be more obvious what Blizzard is doing. The whole thing about people switching races is just melodrama.
Everyone (by everyone I mean select posters in this thread) need to stop complaining and learn to play with a 2 supply roach and wait for more changes. This is what Blizzard wants you to do, and if you play zerg, what you have to do. It IS the beta afterall..
your being a less than obvious dick, learn to play with supply 2 roach? have you not seen the latest zerg victories in turnaments?
THEY SKIPPED THE ROACH all together.-
so we are just going to follow their example, skip roach all together.
Then you make hydralisks because that unit is 2 supply as well, and has so much more dps that a roach with its 3 range and a tad more hp is worse than just getting another hydralisk.
THE ROACH has the most upgrades and is the most USELESS at 200/200 supply.
Less diversity in every matchup and your saying l2p?
;/ meeh, not to feed the trolls but its bad game design to leave the roach as it currently is.
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I don't see a quick fix to Zerg. The fact that they have so few units makes them overpowered because they need fewer buildings to adjust to their opponent. Spawning pool + hydra den + spire can counter pretty much everything and you can pump a perfect combo of counter units 18 at a time with 3 hatcheries.
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On May 18 2010 20:13 Psiclone wrote:
I don't see a quick fix to Zerg. The fact that they have so few units makes them overpowered because they need fewer buildings to adjust to their opponent. Spawning pool + hydra den + spire can counter pretty much everything and you can pump a perfect combo of counter units 18 at a time with 3 hatcheries.
Lol?
What, exactly, does zerg "counter"?
First off they have no +dmg to armored unlike both other races.
2nd, zerglings melt to just about everything come midgame.
Mutas get STOMPED by thors, and toss has 2 t1 GtA units if you want to discount stargate units.
Hydras don't "counter" anything. They are just somewhat efficient and do a lot of damage when massed. Thus they are the mainstay of most Zerg armies post 2 supply roach nerf.
Roaches were good specifically because they could be massed to soak up damage, now they can't because you're supply blocked twice as fast. They're really not an attractive option vs an equal supply hydra. (You hear that Blizzard? That cleary means nerf hydras, Dustin "retardo" Browder)
So we have the very niche corruptor which I guess does somewhat counter colossi and a couple of large air things (which mostly don't see play).
And then the broodlord which at t3 / 3.5 can afford to give Zerg an actual good unit.
Lol, Zerg.
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On May 18 2010 20:13 Psiclone wrote:
I don't see a quick fix to Zerg. The fact that they have so few units makes them overpowered because they need fewer buildings to adjust to their opponent. Spawning pool + hydra den + spire can counter pretty much everything and you can pump a perfect combo of counter units 18 at a time with 3 hatcheries.
Zerg do not counter. Zerg makes lots of units and they respond to the opponents moves but they never outright have a direct counter to anything. Sure Hydralisk can shoot up and do sort of "Counter air." but they are also "simply put the most efficient unit that I will be making regardless of opponents race, build and overall strategy. "
Usually a zerg players response to anything at all is simply THROW MORE STUFF AT IT or my infestation pit, tech to hive, spire into greater spire timing was off.
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EPT
