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On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point.
So, when someone builds extra Queens for anti-air defense, this is not "usable in combat"? So when a Brood Lord's Broodlings stop your GtA units from getting into range with them, this is not "usable in combat?"
Perhaps you need a more clear definition of this term, because it seems very nebulous.
And this is not a minor point of contention; it is not a semantic point. It is the fundamental structure of his first argument: that the Zerg have far fewer options than Terran/Protoss and therefore are easier to master. If it is indeed found that the Zerg do not have far fewer options as Artosis indicated, then this part of his argument fails.
So a consistent definition of "usable in combat" is important. Overlords can drop units, and so can Warp Prisms. So it is very hard to justify having one of these considered "usable in combat" and not the other. Same goes with Overseers and Observers; if Overseers don't count, then Observers can't count either.
On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls...
Blind worship of where information comes from, rather than critical thinking about the information itself, will never allow you to find the truth.
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On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls...
being argumentative is fine. it's the way someone argues that can be bad. i believe he was clearly on the fair side of the line.
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If balance stays the way that it is I will be playing Terran and I'd bet my house that Terran will dominate all future tournaments and all of the pros will switch to Terran.
I think at the moment alot of people expecting a big Zerg buff in the next patch or a huge Terran nerf. If that doesn't happen though then I think we will see a big transfer of pros from Zerg switching to Terran.
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On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls...
omg you are very insulting o_o
TeWy is not trolling he have some interesting points.
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On May 17 2010 17:42 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. So, when someone builds extra Queens for anti-air defense, this is not "usable in combat"? So when a Brood Lord's Broodlings stop your GtA units from getting into range with them, this is not "usable in combat?" Perhaps you need a more clear definition of this term, because it seems very nebulous. And this is not a minor point of contention; it is not a semantic point. It is the fundamental structure of his first argument: that the Zerg have far fewer options than Terran/Protoss and therefore are easier to master. If it is indeed found that the Zerg do not have far fewer options as Artosis indicated, then this part of his argument fails. So a consistent definition of "usable in combat" is important. Overlords can drop units, and so can Warp Prisms. So it is very hard to justify having one of these considered "usable in combat" and not the other. Same goes with Overseers and Observers; if Overseers don't count, then Observers can't count either. Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls... Blind worship of where information comes from, rather than critical thinking about the information itself, will never allow you to find the truth.
@ point #1: Broodlords and broodlings go together... you don't make broodlings without broodlords... its the same way infested terran don't count as infestors make them. You cannot just make them at your hatch... they are part of the broodlord.
As for Queens, you do not march a queen across the map and attack with them... You cannot mass like 6 - 7 queens and then attack with them like you can roaches, they are more like static defenses than anything else.
Now for overlords vs warp prisms. Warp prisms allow the P to warp in more units into a battle, the overlord is a supply depot... The warp prism actively influences a battle, the best an overlord can do is drop down a tiny spot of creep and allow Z's 1a'ed units to move a bit faster....
Not to mention, the OL creep was going down anyways, the warprism is not activated unless needed for a battle...
This is why the Broodling, Queen, and over lord don't count where the warp prism does.
As such, Z does have less units... as we cannot center a strat around: Queens, Broodlings, Overlords.
Where P and T can use every unit at their command to win a battle, from HT storms, to medivac heals, to calling in reinforcements... Z just has a blob of units that 1a.
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On May 17 2010 18:06 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 17:42 NicolBolas wrote:On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. So, when someone builds extra Queens for anti-air defense, this is not "usable in combat"? So when a Brood Lord's Broodlings stop your GtA units from getting into range with them, this is not "usable in combat?" Perhaps you need a more clear definition of this term, because it seems very nebulous. And this is not a minor point of contention; it is not a semantic point. It is the fundamental structure of his first argument: that the Zerg have far fewer options than Terran/Protoss and therefore are easier to master. If it is indeed found that the Zerg do not have far fewer options as Artosis indicated, then this part of his argument fails. So a consistent definition of "usable in combat" is important. Overlords can drop units, and so can Warp Prisms. So it is very hard to justify having one of these considered "usable in combat" and not the other. Same goes with Overseers and Observers; if Overseers don't count, then Observers can't count either. On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls... Blind worship of where information comes from, rather than critical thinking about the information itself, will never allow you to find the truth. @ point #1: Broodlords and broodlings go together... you don't make broodlings without broodlords... its the same way infested terran don't count as infestors make them. You cannot just make them at your hatch... they are part of the broodlord. As for Queens, you do not march a queen across the map and attack with them... You cannot mass like 6 - 7 queens and then attack with them like you can roaches, they are more like static defenses than anything else. Now for overlords vs warp prisms. Warp prisms allow the P to warp in more units into a battle, the overlord is a supply depot... The warp prism actively influences a battle, the best an overlord can do is drop down a tiny spot of creep and allow Z's 1a'ed units to move a bit faster.... Not to mention, the OL creep was going down anyways, the warprism is not activated unless needed for a battle... This is why the Broodling, Queen, and over lord don't count where the warp prism does. As such, Z does have less units... as we cannot center a strat around: Queens, Broodlings, Overlords. Where P and T can use every unit at their command to win a battle, from HT storms, to medivac heals, to calling in reinforcements... Z just has a blob of units that 1a.
This.
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On May 17 2010 17:42 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. So, when someone builds extra Queens for anti-air defense, this is not "usable in combat"? So when a Brood Lord's Broodlings stop your GtA units from getting into range with them, this is not "usable in combat?" Perhaps you need a more clear definition of this term, because it seems very nebulous. And this is not a minor point of contention; it is not a semantic point. It is the fundamental structure of his first argument: that the Zerg have far fewer options than Terran/Protoss and therefore are easier to master. If it is indeed found that the Zerg do not have far fewer options as Artosis indicated, then this part of his argument fails. So a consistent definition of "usable in combat" is important. Overlords can drop units, and so can Warp Prisms. So it is very hard to justify having one of these considered "usable in combat" and not the other. Same goes with Overseers and Observers; if Overseers don't count, then Observers can't count either. Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls... Blind worship of where information comes from, rather than critical thinking about the information itself, will never allow you to find the truth.
He was talking about choices in terms of army compositions, way to totally miss Artosis's point. Gee i guess next time i should go that common queen into brooding strat >.< and furthermore Overlord drop is not the same as a warp prism, have you not played starcrft2, do you seriously not understand the difference between being able to drop units and warp them in? And you call this critical thinking?
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I think the concern expressed is that Blizzard is nerfing zerg b/c there is a prevalence of high level zerg players on the asia server. This prevalence however may have little to do with how powerful zerg is as a race and have everything to do with gameplay complexity i.e. zerg is just easier to master (a sick production mechanic doesn't hurt their appeal either).
Since none of us are privy to Blizzard's actual intent regarding long term balance adjustments it is really hard to say. The recent roach nerf was done to weaken the combined HP of 200/200 zerg armies filled with roaches and is a prelude to an ultralisk buff + other possible zerg changes (as per Blizzard's patch statement). Switching races simply b/c you feel your race is underpowered for the current patch in the beta (no offense anyone) is really stupid. What are you going to keep switching races every patch? Lol how silly. If you want to be an serious competitor you will eventually have to pick a race and stick with it.
Blizzard doesn't always immediately patch the biggest imbalance as perceived by the players. This is a good thing.
Player perception is often biased and anecdotal evidence doesn't always confirm the underlying data. Since we don't have access to the data Blizzard is collecting so we rely almost entirely on our own experience and tournament results to judge balance. However actual gameplay statistics are superior towards making qualitative assessments regarding game balance especially from the perspective of a large corporation.
For example, lots of terran players whine about void ray imbalance (I play terran btw) but the truth of the matter might be more subtle. Assuming Blizzard has complete gameplay data (unit usage rates etc.) you could calculate things like the probability a terran who opens with X build will win if a protoss player opens with void rays.
These kinds of calculations are what you would want to do if you are multi-million dollar corporation with millions of dollar invested in a game that you want to become an e-sport standard for years to come. The more dependencies you incorporate into your analysis (timings, rank, map, other units numbers etc.) the better you are able to assess match-up balances. We don't have access to any of this information. And sometimes as players we don't need to in order to see something isn't right. However we should be necessarily suspicious of our immediate reactions to balance changes and withhold judgement until we've more thoroughly tested whatever new (or seemingly ridiculous) changes Blizzard has made.
Of course Blizzard could be full of newbs who don't collect any meaningful data from the games and can't do math but somehow I doubt it. This game may take years to balance thoroughly. The best we can do as players is provide intelligent feedback and try our best to abuse everything so that nothing slips through the cracks.
Artosis has a good point, I think the "over-nerf" was perhaps something of a misnomer for a lot of people. Blizzard wants to see more racial diversity amongst high level players but the lack of diversity (specifically on the Asia server which Blizzard likes to focus on) may have little to do with game balance and more to do with other factors.
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so according to you zerg wasant imbalanced in patch 11?
because all top zergs including sen etc claimed zerg is somewhat overpowered
imo blizzard should do something with ridiculous larva incjection before they make any nerfs but they decided to choose other route ... (in sc1 u could easily compete in macro war with zerg but now its just impossible, he will run you over)
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just looking at reps of asia Z's vs anything else it made me be like lol T's and P's arent that great at all over there.
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Not just over nerved but over simplified. Why the he'll does erg only have 9 combat units bliZzard????
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On May 17 2010 18:42 Dr.Frost wrote:
Not just over nerved but over simplified. Why the he'll does erg only have 9 combat units bliZzard????
Why does blizzard hate Ergs so much :/.
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On May 17 2010 14:53 Artosis wrote:
This is a huge difference, especially when you consider that one of the Zerg units, the Ultralisk, is completely inferior to any other choice the Zerg have. This brings us down to eight units. Why does this make the Zerg better on the Asian server?
Streamlined learning. This is all that the Zerg has to work with. That means, the best units, ideas and strategies boil down much faster. There is simply less to test. StarCraft II is a very complex game, with many, many factors contributing to any situation. The Zerg have less of these factors. You have a very limited number of options. This doesn't make playing the Zerg easier, per sey, it just makes figuring out how to player the Zerg right easier. While other races are still around with three to five extra units, the Zerg already know what combination work and don't work. This makes every practice game a Zerg player plays worth more, as they are already past the testing phase.
[/b]
Agreed, Zerg after the initial larvae / macro knowhow have a very easy learning curve and very few viable strategies with very awesome and cheap mobility tricks like nydus worms and overlord doom drops.
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On May 17 2010 18:26 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 17:42 NicolBolas wrote:On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote:
TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. So, when someone builds extra Queens for anti-air defense, this is not "usable in combat"? So when a Brood Lord's Broodlings stop your GtA units from getting into range with them, this is not "usable in combat?" Perhaps you need a more clear definition of this term, because it seems very nebulous. And this is not a minor point of contention; it is not a semantic point. It is the fundamental structure of his first argument: that the Zerg have far fewer options than Terran/Protoss and therefore are easier to master. If it is indeed found that the Zerg do not have far fewer options as Artosis indicated, then this part of his argument fails. So a consistent definition of "usable in combat" is important. Overlords can drop units, and so can Warp Prisms. So it is very hard to justify having one of these considered "usable in combat" and not the other. Same goes with Overseers and Observers; if Overseers don't count, then Observers can't count either. On May 17 2010 17:25 trueg0x wrote:
God DAMMIT TeWy, no one cares about you and your retarded arguing chased artosis away. I want to hear what HE has to say so dont fucking be rude to him and chase him off. Just listen and be grateful that he bothered to aim his brain farts in our direction. idiot! Please artosis, dont abandon this thread because of trolls... Blind worship of where information comes from, rather than critical thinking about the information itself, will never allow you to find the truth. He was talking about choices in terms of army compositions, way to totally miss Artosis's point. Gee i guess next time i should go that common queen into brooding strat >.< and furthermore Overlord drop is not the same as a warp prism, have you not played starcrft2, do you seriously not understand the difference between being able to drop units and warp them in? And you call this critical thinking?
Didn't TheLittleOne just win a game against Protoss by going almost entirely Queen?
Yes. He did.
And you're just mincing words on the difference between Warp in and Drop units. There is a difference without a distinction since in both cases a unit has to go all the way to the location where the drop will be. The only difference is one carries the units in it (prism can too) and the other just allows them to "appear" there.
Idra pretty much won a game against Nony by spending money on drop tech and doom dropping. This is clearly a strat one can take which includes accounting for possible lost Ovies, getting 2 upgrades (speed), and positioning.
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Completely agree with the OP.
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I doubt blizzard nerfed roaches just because the top asian zerg players dominate the scene. The argument about the number of units seem to be flawed as TeWy pointed out (I guess its personal preference on how you count). However, I think Zerg have more streamlined build mechanics and units which makes transitions easier to execute. In the end I think the roach nerf was good even though I had my doubts at first. I love how muta/ling combinations are more viable in ZvZ now. And I actually used to suicide harass my late game hydras/mutas just to be able to make 200/200 roach in many games.
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Of the top 18 players on the asian server, only one is protoss. If zerg was overnerfed, then protoss got destroyed. Should mention that in your article Artosis.
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wow nice thanks for the read
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On May 17 2010 18:52 On_Slaught wrote:
Didn't TheLittleOne just win a game against Protoss by going almost entirely Queen?
Yes. He did.
Morrow just won a game by defending with like 20 scv's and a tank as well so he won a game by going almost entirely SCV, maybe they should be considered a combat unit.
Seriously though, neither a dropship or a pylon is a combat unit, so the warp prism isn't either.
And even if you do consider the queen a combat unit, zerg is still behind in the number of units so the main point of Artosis still stands even though I don't agree with everything he said or the way he said it.
(Oh, and Broodlings doesn't count, just like interceptors doesn't count.)
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EPT
