EPTOver-nerfed: Why Zerg dominated Korea. - Page 4
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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Weasel-
Canada1556 Posts
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
When Starcraft 1 first came out was zerg the most dominant there too? The early SC1 patches were basically a series of Zerg nerfs. A larva spawn time nerf was, I think, a day-1 patch for StarCraft. On May 17 2010 16:18 Weasel- wrote: By this logic, since zerg now have even fewer units than they had before they should be back to dominating terran and protoss with their limited unit selection in no time! Blizzard should continue to nerf zerg units until only the hydra remains so that pro zergs can master this unit and continue to rape everything! Learning a race does not mean winning with a race. If a race is OP and you've learned it, you'll win. If a race is underpowered, and you've learned it, you'll lose. | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
In any case I still think the Ultralisks need to be changed to be more usable still. The old SC Korean vets that you mentioned should be giving feedback to blizzard directly, but then again the lack of former progamers playing Terran and Protoss right now makes it difficult to judge how balanced the game is at the top level, and that is nobody's fault. Other races were struggling because of they have to used different unit compositions to compete against zerg, while having to worry about tech switches by the zerg at the same time. After these patches, now Terran at least they do not have to worry about getting 5 different types of units and having a good number of every army production facility to compete. The roach change was a fair one, and one that will also benefit in making ZvZ more diverse in my opinion. Hydras are still great, and they are still being used regularly even after they were nerfed, so are Roaches. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
On May 17 2010 16:18 Weasel- wrote: By this logic, since zerg now have even fewer units than they had before they should be back to dominating terran and protoss with their limited unit selection in no time! Blizzard should continue to nerf zerg units until only the hydra remains so that pro zergs can master this unit and continue to rape everything! That's not by his logic at all  Fewer units doesn't mean stronger it means simpler basic play. eg. Most Terrans and Protoss have spent at least half their time working out coo-key builds, cheeses, and weird timings, but Zerg doesn't really have a Thor/Collosus, Banshee/Viking/Phoenix/Voidray to experiment with. Therefore more time spent working on solid, simple play. | ||
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Auronz
Brazil119 Posts
On May 17 2010 15:46 cursor wrote: Hell, even after release it won't be "Final". I sincerely hope that SC2 won't require the constant patching and baby sitting that WC3 gets. That thing needs more patches than it gets, and they are STILL patching it. A really bad sign will be regular patches and bitching 4 years into release. I could easily see that happening Brood War took at the very least 4 years to be what it is right now regarding balance. Before that we had 150 minerals spawning pools. | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
The strong points of this theory is that it explains the two phenomena that have been difficult to explain about race dominance in the beta: -Zergs in Korea dominate -Other Zerg players from around the world do not It is a compelling argument, as it explains alot, without being complex. Perhaps the strongest counter arguments are: -Artosis plays Zerg himself (biased) -Is lack of unit diversity really an advantage? -Other theories that can explain the high level of play in Korea and Zerg dominance there That Artosis at least to some degree is biased seems probable, but the argument he has presented seems to hold its own even if someone else would have posted it, so it does not seem that relevant here. Whether the small amount of viable units really can explain the dominance is debatable. In a highly competitive envirionment like the Korean scene, it seems strange that something that really is a disadvantage, has enabled Zerg to dominate for an extended amount of time, simply due to Zerg having a knowledge advantage. One would think that as patch 11 moved on, Zergs would constantly lose ground then, since the other races would be gaining on them, learning more about their own races, which by Artosis`s argument would be better races, only that they hadn`t been mastered yet. I do not know whether this is what happened, but if it did it would strengthen Artosis`s argument considerably. The last and perhaps most important counter argument is the viability of competing explanations for Zerg dominance. For example Zergs are considered to have very powerful macro mechanics that are very unforgiving. This means that the skill cap for Zerg may be higher than for the other races, making exceptional players able to accomplish things others cannot. This explanation also explains why Korean Zerg have been dominating (They are simply better at the game, and it shows because Zerg rewards good players more), and why other zerg have not. In conclusion I find Artosis to have brought an interesting argument to the table, and it may have some clout to it, perhaps explaining a bit, but I do not think it can single-handedly explain what is going on. It does not have that good backing in empirical evidence, nor does it really have any reason as to why it is better than other explanations. In TL arguments often seem to be based on player experience and veteranship (Kind of like other institutions really), rather than other perhaps more fair ways of discussing things (it has its merits though, by all means!) so noone will probably care what I wrote here. But that`s okay, it was fun to write. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
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TeWy
France714 Posts
SC2 Zerg: Zergling + Baneling + Roach + Hydralisk + Mutalisk + Corruptor + Broodlord + Overlord + Overseer + Queen + Infestor + Ultralisk (+ Broodling + Changeling + Infested Terran) = 12 (15) SC Zerg: Zergling + Hydralisk + Lurker + Mutalisks + Devourer + Guardian + Scourge + Queen + Defiler + Overlord + Ultralisk (+ Broodling + Infested Terran) = 11 (13) this is 10 and 10 without overlord/overseer. SC2 Protoss: Zealot + Stalker + Sentry + High templar + Dark templar + Archon + Phoenix + Void Ray + Carrier + + Immortal + Colossus + Warp Prism + Observer + Mothership = 14. Now if you decide once again to remove the non combat unit this is nothing more than 12 unit, I wonder how you found 14... SC2 Terran: Marine + Marauder + Ghost + Helion + Thor + Tank + Viking + Banshee + Battlecruiser + Raven + Medivac + Reaper = 12 EDIT: forgot the reaper, that's ok. The truth is that no one knows yet whether the game is balanced or not, Zerg might be totally OP, Zerg might be weak, people's micro and timings are too bad to really know it at this point. The point of the BETA is to correct the most obvious and outrageous imbalances, you can't balance it perfectly when no one knows all the different counters and timings... in other words how to play it well. Some people play it boringly, mass a bunch of so called "standard units", macro and believe they play the game "right" but these fools have no idea. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
It's really true. It's all about finding the best play in every situation. The less variations there are, the faster best play is reached. Connect-four is solved because it is simple. Checkers has also been solved. Chess has not been solved because it has more possible variations. Imagine a game of chess with nothing but pawns and kings. Best play could be calculated by a computer in moments. Now add knights and all of a sudden the amount of time it takes to find best play explodes exponentially. Further up in complexity, a player with minimal practice can beat the strongest of computers in a game of Go. If all of the races are balanced, then it makes perfect sense that Zerg would peak play faster than Protoss or Terran, simply because the gameplay is simpler and less diverse. It's not different then asking the same computer to try and play Checker, Chess, and Go. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
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jtype
England2167 Posts
edit - oh Artosis beat me by a second.. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. | ||
Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
On May 17 2010 15:11 Ftrunkz wrote: Sorry but i personally find it hard to believe that your look at it is unbiased. I don't think it's possible for Artosis to be objective. It's just not in his being.  | ||
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Number41
United States130 Posts
On May 17 2010 16:32 TeWy wrote: SC2 Terran: Marine + Marauder + Ghost + Helion + Thor + Tank + Viking + Banshee + Battlecruiser + Raven + Medivac = 11 You said 12 ? Huh ? . Reaper | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
As balance changes are made to level the races as they are currently, then Terran and Protos should begin to outperform Zerg as all 3 races reach best play. Then, Zerg will be changed again and we should have a balanced game. How long do you think this will take? | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On May 17 2010 16:36 Artosis wrote: TeWy, ABSOLUTELY NOT. I said units usable in combat. overlord, overseer, queen, broodling, changeling, and infested terran do not count. don't bother responding. im not arguing this point. Truth is that you removed the overlord/overseer of the Zerg while keeping the observer/warp prism of the Protoss in order to make your point look better. You don't want to argue because there's nothing to argue. ^ Thank you, I'm adding the reaper. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 17 2010 16:33 Artosis wrote: i'll probably reply to a bunch of things said in here later when i feel like it, but i'd really like to point out guys, that i didn't actually complain or say zerg has been overnerfed. maybe they have, maybe they haven't. i'm honestly not biased, its still in beta, i can easily switch back to terran if i like. this article is more about why the korean zergs are the best, and what SEEMS to be happening (over-nerfing due to not understanding WHY zergs are doing so well). Cool, thanks. I'm looking forward to it. | ||
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