On May 17 2010 15:25 mrdx wrote: Not saying Artosis' 2nd point is weak, but I found it surprising if the entire impression of Zerg being overwhelming in Asia was because of those 6 ex SC1 progamers listed. They must have been either so far ahead of everyone, or being so influential to the entire Zerg player base (by writing Zerg playing guides, commentaries, 1st person VODs etc...)?
The first point about Zerg being overall easier to figure out was not convincing IMO, as if it is, it would be the same case outside of Asia.
Actually that's one of his strongest points, though Artosis failed to articulate. He's talking about Metagame. Metagame works like this. Some does a build, it works. It's good. Solid. People follow it.
It takes one good player to make a solid build not 1000's 100's not even 10's. Having 6 ex sc1 progamers... well don't know what to say to that. Even in EU server, after nazgul's performance in Zotac Cup, everyone in EU shifted to his build (not saying he created the whole build but the shift in metagame was definitely visible). Even looking into ZvZ, we want to believe that Roach v Roach shift to Zergling v Zergling was shifted by 100's and 1000's of Zergs experimenting. However it is more likely that only handful of people experimented and got the build working and everyone else followed suit (this was even before roach armor reduction nerf). I could name other examples of metagame shift by good players but you get the picture. It only takes one person to change the metagame forever.
On May 17 2010 15:33 nodule wrote: Or, maybe the strongest players picked the overpowered race, the race that allowed them to win most easily. Artosis and Idra switching to zerg is no coincidence, perhaps?
Exactly.
It's good that some of the Zerg ex-pro players have moved to other races. You can even say that by heavily nerfing Zerg, Blizzard (either intentionally or not) did a great move of forcing the best Zerg players to try out other races. Their performance with Terran/Protoss will provide invaluable information on the balance of the Zerg.
I'm sure Blizzard is closely monitoring the shift among races in Korea. As always, it's not the end of the world because it's still beta and nothing is final.
I think it's more likely that Korea simply developed a myth that zerg was the strongest race, which caused all the really competitive players to pick zerg, which meant that zerg won all the tourneys, which reinforced the myth.
I feel absolutely ridiculous questioning you considering a) the vast difference in our respective skill levels, and b) you're in fucking Korea. I dunno, maybe it just shows how dead wrong I am, and if so you can go ahead and smack me. If you or someone else could respond to my questions and tell me what I'm missing, please do.
So you're making the case that Zerg has been doing better because 1) they have less units to work with and are thus dominant because of streamlined learning, and 2) there are simply more top Zerg players than any other race, thus it's obvious why Zerg would be doing better overall.
Well, for point one. The new patch has only been out for a few days, and the reason for that patch was to make other Zerg units useful mid/late game; to promote Ultralisks and so on. I'm not arguing the usefulness of Ultras; if there's a problem now with Zerg lategame weakness then that, too, should be fixed in the next patch. On the whole, I agree with Blizzard's goal: To not have one or two dominant units, and to promote variety. If they can increase the number of viable units Zerg can use, then hopefully mastering them would no longer be streamlined, as you said, and they'd have as many useful units as Terran/Zerg. In this regard, isn't the overall goal of Blizzard - to make other units equally viable - a good thing?
As for point two, I only have a question: Is it coincidence that the majority of the top Koreans players are Zerg, or is it because it was genuinely better/easier to learn and master, see point 1? This is where I'm not quite on board.
I dunno. You might be totally right and I'm just questioning irrelevancies. I thought Blizzard was specifically looking to Korean progamers for balancing SC2, though? Don't they have some kind of meaningful dialogue with them? That's the kind of feedback I'd be looking for if I was balancing the game; I wouldn't just be peripherally looking at the Korean pro scene and seeing what race is dominant, I'd be asking them why.
But, I guess, that's what you're saying: that Blizzard hasn't done this. Something which, if true, they really need to start.
On May 17 2010 15:41 mrdx wrote: ...As always, it's not the end of the world because it's still beta and nothing is final.
Hell, even after release it won't be "Final". I sincerely hope that SC2 won't require the constant patching and baby sitting that WC3 gets. That thing needs more patches than it gets, and they are STILL patching it. A really bad sign will be regular patches and bitching 4 years into release. I could easily see that happening
I see a general assumption that every plat player in some way or the other follows a top player's playstyle and all plat players are in plat cos they want to play sc2 competitively. I disagree with this. I met some very good players on the ladder who never even heard of TL.net but they are up there massing games, probably figuring the game by themselves and don't really care about playing in tournaments, etc. They are just in it for the fun and don't give a damn if 9 overlord is more effective than 10 overlord. yet, when Blizz bases their balance changes on server statistics, these people who are not connected to the community are in Blizz's statistics as well. Just something to keep in mind.
Other than that good article and am glad that a pro speaks openly about the over-nerf
@artosis how come players like thewind and cool[fou] and other top players in this article dont play in zotac and esl like Sen and idra do, wouldnt it be free money for them? and with battle ping there is no lag for them, everyone and their dog has multiple keys by now so that shouldnt be a problem either...
unless there are bigger tournaments taking up their time that we dont hear about? or they dont want to noob bash/give away their strats?
Well, for point one. The new patch has only been out for a few days, and the reason for that patch was to make other Zerg units useful mid/late game; to promote Ultralisks and so on. I'm not arguing the usefulness of Ultras; if there's a problem now with Zerg lategame weakness then that, too, should be fixed in the next patch. On the whole, I agree with Blizzard's goal: To not have one or two dominant units, and to promote variety. If they can increase the number of viable units Zerg can use, then hopefully mastering them would no longer be streamlined, as you said, and they'd have as many useful units as Terran/Zerg. In this regard, isn't the overall goal of Blizzard - to make other units equally viable - a good thing?
Well, I think the argument is Ultras are no more useful now than they were pre-nerf to roaches. Maybe they gain a small bump in relative usefulness, but they are still unusable unless you are trying to embarrass someone.
This is beta, however, so we can't get too upset over a change. Blizz certainly need this change to better gauge what buff Ults needs to make them more useful then mass roaches end-game.
Edit: I hope they give hydra their damn speed back. It sucks trying to co-ordinate flanks when half your army is lazy.
If you cant stop masshydras as protoss, playing at equal skilllevel, then you really should be to ashamed about it to brag about it in the TL-forums. You got outplayed by a better player, not a better race.
Its good that the best zerg players are moving over to terran; 1. Its a statement. 2. Since, in my mind, terran is the best race, pros changing over will prove that in a few weeks time. Then see #1.
Edit: Once good players start play terran, we can look forward to some serious buffs for Z, since its seriously underpowered atm.
What have the top Korean Zerg players been doing since the last Zerg nerf in Patch 12? Well, I can't speak for all of them, but two of the very top players, Cool[fOu] and TheWinD, have both been practicing Terran on the Asian Ladder.
This is the most depressing thing I've read all week. Though I smell an OVERBUFF incoming in patch 13 to the ultralisk.
Let me first say that I really appreciate this insightful look at the Korean SC 2 pro scene. Certainly, there is no one better at conveying this information to the foreigner community than Artosis.
Having said that, I don't see any argument as to why Zerg is "overnerfed," only an explanation for why Zerg might have been perceived as being "overpowered." Shouldn't an article that argues for why Zerg is "overnerfed" talk about the actual gameplay balance, including discussions of the units, abilities, mechanics, meta-game, tournament results, and the like?
A race in a RTS game can be completely fine without having a great diversity of units, so long as what it does have gets the job done. Zerg players are clearly getting the job done, currently, with a combination of zerglings, banelings, and hydras, while transitioning into broodlords for the end game. Ultralisks are still a work in progress, while roaches will most likely receive some tweaks since I doubt Blizzard will leave them completely useless given that they are one of Justin Browder's "favorite units."
To this end, I think it's too early to talk about gameplay balance, especially since the meta-game has yet to settle over patch 12. It took years for the SC 1 meta-game to develop in Korea and for people to figure out what they needed to do. That, too, is something widely accepted.
For this reason, I think people should just play the game and let the results speak for themselves. If, right now, there is an overwhelming number of Korean ex-SC 1 pros playing Zerg, then the prospect of them switching to Terran or Protoss should be something to be celebrated, as it would counter this trend of Zerg dominating in Korea and lead to a more balanced representation of the races - which would lead to a more balanced representation of the gameplay - which is to be desired.
Wish people would stop saying they nerfed roaches to "make way" for an ultralisk buff. Please, don't touch my tier 1 units just so you can make tier 3 better. Tier 1 is just so pivotal every game.
Besides Bliz just said that the roach was "too mighty" for one supply.
EPT
