EPTOn May 07 2010 07:58 rei wrote:
oh yes!
oh yes!
WOW slower version please :D
Did you have to use only Patrol?
Patch 11-Phoenix:Did Blizz Fix Anything? - Page 10
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
WOW slower version please :D Did you have to use only Patrol? | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On May 07 2010 07:52 Random() wrote: It's not an analogy, it's a direct response to MorroW's statement about 'not pulling the trigger'. When you tell marines to stop, you don't explicitly order them to 'stop' and then 'shoot at anything that approaches', but they still shoot automatically. They can be somewhere where you are not even looking, but still shoot automatically, without you even knowing. My argument is that you cannot avoid automation in an RTS, hence automation by itself is not necessarily evil. I guess I just want people to see how this plays out in the context of a particular unit, and not just scream 'omg automation noobs will suddenly become so good now'. I believe you misunderstood. What you're saying is that units automatically acquire targets while idle which is very okay for everyone. What Morrow is saying is that units automatically ATTACK units while MOVING by just... well.. MOVING which very bad for everyone. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On May 07 2010 07:39 Koltz wrote: Yeah you're definitely not worth the time. Perhaps you should have researched more into the BW lore and community before you came in here with your pretentious and condescending attitude. Every post of yours belittles something that BW players cherish, and what's more you use hyperbole to assert, what is in your mind just, ridiculous claims. Please stop trying to enforce your totalitarian attitude through hyperbole, belittlement and condescension. I know, without a doubt that you did not come from BW, so perhaps try watching some VODs and realize why it was so great. Because you clearly do not understand BW micro; it wasn't the sequence of commands which allowed people to do extraordinary feats, but the timing and precision it took for 9 mutas to kill 40 marines. This timing and precision is hugely dumbed down with move-attacking phoenixes. + Show Spoiler + On May 07 2010 07:03 Koltz wrote: It's really not gamebreaking at all in it's current state. Since they don't stack, you have to make sure that one phoenix doesnt fly into the mutas at all times to get picked off easily. It would be if the phoenixes could perma stack, but I suppose if other units could perma stack too, it'd negate it, and we'd be left with BW style air micro Wait... that's an idea! Don't claim im biased. I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you. Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance) The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed." Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision. Try interpreting the things I post. It might help. | ||
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wizard944
194 Posts
haha ya tvz has no phoenixes, in fact phoenixes aren't even mentioned here, I think died should be decided, and this has nothing to do with anything else being discussed On a side note, I found the phoenix change to be nice, but since my primary race is protoss I could be a bit biased. However, maybe if they could only turn 90 degrees, this would be a nice compromise...or maybe if required micro like in Brood War, that would also be nice... | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:03 Zeke50100 wrote: I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you. Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance) The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed." Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision. Try interpreting the things I post. It might help. It looks as if you can't catch them now  it would be different if they had to make a turn to attack and I hope constant move isn't the only command required to make this happen.edit: well I guess (other than doing what Nazgul wrote about and making Corruptors) forcing Zerg to split his mutas to cut off phoenixes escape route is a solution to that but that's also only if they can attack-move too... | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 07 2010 07:59 beetlelisk wrote: I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but this example is wrong, Marines can't move while they are attacking; even though you can move them during cooldown it's close but not the same. The way Phoenixes can shoot shown in that video someone posted looks a lot easier even if it's not (at least that much) simply because they move backwards while in BW you have no units moving backwards, you have to turn at certain degress if you want to make your units shoot without making them slow down. That is not what I meant. I reacted to people complaining that phoenixes auto-target and auto-attack even though you didn't order them to attack, you just told them to move, and that this somehow insults their feeling of being in control. I argued that idle units in BW will auto-target and auto-attack, which is about the same level of automation and everyone is fine with that. | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? I have an idea. Lock the SC2 forums one whole day each time a patch is released so people can actually play the game first. | ||
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Oracle
Canada411 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:03 Zeke50100 wrote: I happen to watch SC1 all the time, thank you. Please quote every single one of my posts, and point out how it belittles something that BW players cherish. I belittle the fact that people seem to think change cannot ever bring about good in a video game, especially when they loved it so much. (e.g. Imagine SC2 with SC1 mechanics. That'd be a hell of imbalance) The problem with Phoenixes is that they were never TRULY good at countering Mutas as well as Blizzard claimed they did. SC2 is a game of hard counters - Soft-Counters mean relatively little compared to Hard-Counters. A hard-counter shouldn't require ridiculous micro in the current state of the game; that is, if a unit is meant to counter something so heavily, it shouldn't be "Oh, only if you do this specific sequence of commands every time you see the thing it's supposed to counter easily; and hope they don't micro themselves, because then you're screwed." Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision. Try interpreting the things I post. It might help. Oh, okay you're right. + Show Spoiler + Okay you watch it, but don't act like you play it. This is identified by the following: Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision. Timing the move, hold position (or a-move), and then move again individually, three times, is akin to moving in and out? It does require micro, but it's severely dumbed down. Repeatedly you talk as if the old system was bad, lackluster, and buggy, but clearly you do not understand it. If you understood the motive of my post, it was not even about the mechanics, it was about the attitude that you bring to TL. Quit it. I've already shown that I like the new mechanic, don't argue semantics with me. Bottom line, get your point across the right way, without hyperbole, belittlement, condescension. I rather not waste my time coming up with examples of these, as they are littered throughout this post, LaLush's micro post, as well as the other patch post. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? what this man said is right, in all respects... except that phoenix's previous advantage they had vs corruptors is compounded now: phoenixes still move way faster than corruptors and so because phoenixes will beat corruptors if they outnumber them at all (remember theyve the same cost), if corruptors are outnumbered, trying to run isn't a great option, and this is worse now due to their auto-shoot while moving. whereas if corruptors are even or have larger numbers, phoenixes can always run away. they get to dictate when the fights happen, that's why phoenixes are still better than corruptors. | ||
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG. Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Blizzard: Hang on, we're trying some changes, how about this new fun stuff..? People: Fuck you Blizzard, we want to be able to control units EXACTLY as in BW, and also patrol command MUST glitch in the EXACT same way as in BW! Also units MUST NEVER be able to auto-shoot while moving: they didn't in BW and hence it is a sacrilege to even think of allowing that! I'm done with this discussion; people just refuse to think out of BW box and accept anything new. | ||
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? I guess the question remains, has muta control changed at all with this patch? I've heard several conflicting claims. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:11 Random() wrote: That is not what I meant. I reacted to people complaining that phoenixes auto-target and auto-attack even though you didn't order them to attack, you just told them to move, and that this somehow insults their feeling of being in control. I argued that idle units in BW will auto-target and auto-attack, which is about the same level of automation and everyone is fine with that. It's not the same level of automation. Phoenix hovering over something and starting to attack but still being still is the same as a Marine that auto acquires a target. Phoenix that just moves and attacks with no difference whether you order it to attack or not is not the same and I hope it's not the case here at all. (example: Cobras killing Thor in the Terran demo from about 2 years ago come to my mind) You can live with it but that's still worse than forcing Phoenixes to turn to attack. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:13 lolaloc wrote: I have an idea. Lock the SC2 forums one whole day each time a patch is released so people can actually play the game first. well most ppl on tl r smart enough to be able to discuss things before they test it. sure majority r making stupid assumptions like phonix will rule the world but i think the overall discussion is a good preparation before we can play it i just hate that esport is dying and that ppl actually think games like sc2 require alot of skills, u clearly havent played sc1 then. that was REAL e-sport, sc2 is no more than dota or wow in my eyes if they keep doing things like this. im not talking about balance, im talking about brain activity and the speed of ur hands. sc2 is just turning out to be this hollow brainless game that anyone can play. there wont be any flash or jaedong godlike ppl to the newbest ppl who cant split because in sc2 the level difference wont be big cause its so easy and so easily mastered in theory were in beta stage and already seeing near perfect micro macro and decision making, its not impressive if its easy and thats whats killing me ;p | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:18 Lollersauce wrote: I'm just wondering how you're presently supposed to ZvP against a P who gets just enough defense/sentries to wall and go air. Apparently Blizzard thinks we are supposed to counter void rays with infestor NP (lol, let's tally up the cost/time investments someone) and investing into corruptors who are AtA only just to not get raped by OL hunting and gravbeams sounds like a totally winning plan to me, considering phoenixes double up as AtG. Basically all I'm seeing is fast hydra den... zzz. Huh? The same way you did before.. multiple queens while getting lair then hydra? Mass Phoenix from a single base will be the same as it was. i just hate that esport is dying and that ppl actually think games like sc2 require alot of skills, u clearly havent played sc1 then. that was REAL e-sport, sc2 is no more than dota or wow in my eyes if they keep doing things like this. im not talking about balance, im talking about brain activity and the speed of ur hands. sc2 is just turning out to be this hollow brainless game that anyone can play. there wont be any flash or jaedong godlike ppl to the newbest ppl who cant split because in sc2 the level difference wont be big cause its so easy and so easily mastered in theory You're not describing e-sports nor the future of it. You're describing a single game; the best game in RTS history and one that will never be equaled. I think you need to accept that fact first before you can see that SC2 is actually the second best RTS ever made and will carry e-sports further than SC:BW ever has. If anything below SC:BW is hollow then yes SC2 is too. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? I think people were expecting it to be exactly like LaLuSh suggested in his thread. Blizzard isn't fucking retarded guys, let them develop the game the way they want too. They won't ruin it, so lets just all calm down. | ||
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HeyZeus
United States23 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Just played around a bunch with this Phoenix still dies to Corruptors, the range of Corruptors doesn't allow for the Phoenix to fly around while shooting. Phoenix basically received a buff vs Mutas only (overlords a bit and units in a beam) with this and it's a micro intensive buff too (moreso than increasing damage at the very least). Why isn't everybody happy we received a buff that requires more micro than a damage increase? Pretty much what everyone asked for but it's presented a bit differently than we're used to so we're all too small minded and freak out? Well said. Honestly I think that everyone freaks out any time something is made to be different than it was in BW. This change is a buff that requires careful micro to take advantage of...1 extra range on the phoenix vs. mutas is not a big margin for error. It was a foregone conclusion based on Blizzard's own recent comments that some sort of buff to phoenixes was coming. Why isn't everyone overjoyed that they took a creative approach rather than just giving them some idiot-proof +damage or +armor? | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:16 Koltz wrote: Oh, okay you're right. + Show Spoiler + Okay you watch it, but don't act like you play it. This is identified by the following: Also, the 9 Muta vs 40 Marines is akin to having 9 Phoenixes fight 40 Marines. You need ridiculous timing and precision, or you're going to lose horribly. Just because it requires less key presses doesn't mean it requires any less precision. Timing the move, hold position (or a-move), and then move again individually, three times, is akin to moving in and out? It does require micro, but it's severely dumbed down. Repeatedly you talk as if the old system was bad, lackluster, and buggy, but clearly you do not understand it. If you understood the motive of my post, it was not even about the mechanics, it was about the attitude that you bring to TL. Quit it. I've already shown that I like the new mechanic, don't argue semantics with me. Bottom line, get your point across the right way, without hyperbole, belittlement, condescension. I rather not waste my time coming up with examples of these, as they are littered throughout this post, LaLush's micro post, as well as the other patch post. I don't see how controlling 9 Mutas is difficult at all, seeing as how you can keep them in the same hotkey. Please explain that part. I will admit that SC2 is easier when it gets to larger unit selections, but that's not a flaw in the micro itself as it is the very existence of unlimited unit selection. Oh, and don't even try to say the old system wasn't buggy, lackluster, and bad (well, bad is subjective, but if you're speaking in terms of efficiency, then it is most likely bad compared to SC2 - or anything more recent). The only reason all of these neat tactics exist are because of the weak engine being prone to manipulation. I call liez. I try and prove that change is not always bad, not that this change is necessarily good. People seem to bash SC2 simply for not having SC1's mechanics, without supporting them. When asked for a reason why, they simply say "SC1 has more micro." And? Explain how that is necessarily good, how SC2 is lacking micro, etc. I personally think the "STFU, you have a low post count, you suck, go to hell," blatantly biased attitude that is portrayed by others is far worse than my own. And, might I add, this "attitude" that you see is merely response to what I deem is unjust. QQ'ing about SC2 because it doesn't have a certain aspect is simply wrong - or rather, to shove it down other people's throats. The way I see it, you're just another SC1 die-hard fan who will shut anybody down who disagrees, even though you know it's entirely subjective. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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